EliminaTwins

[JustinCB]

If somebody could take Santana's spot w/o a big drop in performance then he wouldn't be getting traded for Santana. A name suggested as a possible ballpark value for Ervin is Justus Sheffield. He has made 17 AA starts and would most likely bomb in the majors if promoted now. That is a big drop in performance.

Rogers could take Kintzler's spot but who takes Rogers' spot? The Twins already have MASSIVE problems getting to the 8th/9th innings. This trade would further deplete an already really weak bullpen. The Twins need to add a RP instead of subtract.

I get they have an albeit beaten down fanbase to consider. I just wish sometimes it was a video game I could do whatever I wanted with. Would totally fleece the Mets.

[kab21]

 

I get they have an albeit beaten down fanbase to consider. I just wish sometimes it was a video game I could do whatever I wanted with. Would totally fleece the Mets.

But you still don't think those trades would be a considerable drop in performance? Really?

[JustinCB]

But you still don't think those trades would be a considerable drop in performance? Really?

I guess I still have the stomach for the long game a bit until I can at least squint and see a team with a real chance. As for this one, if we're all being honest, it isn't there yet and all the Marco Estrada's in the world aren't going to get them there. I'm tired of watching them lose but perpetual 1st round playoff exits was worse, in a way.

[goulik]

I guess I still have the stomach for the long game a bit until I can at least squint and see a team with a real chance. As for this one, if we're all being honest, it isn't there yet and all the Marco Estrada's in the world aren't going to get them there. I'm tired of watching them lose but perpetual 1st round playoff exits was worse, in a way.

Those losses to the Yankees were so demoralizing. It was hard to enjoy the regular season because in the back of your mind you knew they were gonna lose to those *#*#+# Yankees. I hate Jeter, ARod and Mariano for it though I respect 2/3 of them as players. If only they had not been on those *#*#+# Yankees teams I could have enjoyed their careers more...

[Mike Sixel]

 

I will repeat - Nobody is talking about a blockbuster for a rental. Some are talking about a very good controllable starter. But I am directly talking about trading the #15-ish org prospect for a competent starter but everyone just replies 'can't compete in the postseason, no reason to make any trades'. And as of a week ago people are still speculating what Ervin Santana can fetch. The Twins are 1/2 GB right now.

 

You think they can trade the number 15 guy in the org for a competent starter?

 

I'm all for that. good luck on that phone call though.

[Mike Sixel]

 

A) Santiago was actually pitching well until the extra inning game where I believe he got hurt.

Meyer has 67IP with a 5.6 BB/9. I need to see a little (actually a lot) more before I use hindsight on this trade.

 

The twins are good because of their outcomes, not their underlying stats, but Meyer is bad because of his underlying stats, outcomes be damned? 

[Mike Sixel]

 

If somebody could take Santana's spot w/o a big drop in performance then he wouldn't be getting traded for Santana. A name suggested as a possible ballpark value for Ervin is Justus Sheffield. He has made 17 AA starts and would most likely bomb in the majors if promoted now. That is a big drop in performance.

Rogers could take Kintzler's spot but who takes Rogers' spot? The Twins already have MASSIVE problems getting to the 8th/9th innings. This trade would further deplete an already really weak bullpen. The Twins need to add a RP instead of subtract.

 

What if Sheffiled was a number 4 in 2018, and a number 2 in 19-23? Is that worth giving up on the long shot that is this year? Or, does only this year matter in the analysis?

[Richie the Rally Goat]

I guess I still have the stomach for the long game a bit until I can at least squint and see a team with a real chance. As for this one, if we're all being honest, it isn't there yet and all the Marco Estrada's in the world aren't going to get them there. I'm tired of watching them lose but perpetual 1st round playoff exits was worse, in a way.

on the position player side, I can see good things on the horizon. On the pitching side, the cupboard is bare and grocery store is almost empty in the near to mid-term.

[whydidnt]

I consider myself more skeptical than negative. That means I need some convincing when somebody tells me "things are different". We've been told for the last 4-5 years  1)be patient 2)Help is on the way) 3)We don't need to add pitchers because of the arms near ready in the minors 4)the front office knows more than you, so just shut up 5)Things will be different this year.

 

I get that the team has outperformed expectations so far, but I also don't see enough pitching to warrant a lot of excitement. The young guys are what they are, but as currently constructed, the offense is pretty middle of the road. So, what am I supposed to be so excited about, terrible pitching and a mediocre, inconsistent hitting? Well at some point, when the FO continues to make decisions that I don't think are good decisions, I'm going to voice my opinion. If you find that offensive, I'm sorry, but I think the only thing more tiring the negative comments is all the negative comments surrounding the negative comments. 

[Mike Sixel]

I'm confused by the thread. I'd think talking about Polanco being good or bad, and if he should be the starter instead of Escobar, on a team that some think is a legit contender, makes sense. We should just ignore Rosario, at 25 and 7 years a pro ball player, throwing to the wrong base multiple times this season? I'd think discussing Belisle, Breslow, Boshers, Turley, Colon, nearly every pitcher they've added from the outside, makes sense. I'd think discussing Gimenez vs Garver makes sense. I'd think discussing Haley and him taking up valuable 25 man roster space makes sense.

What, exactly, should we talk about? Just the good stuff?

[gil4]

 

I have contemplated deleting this site from my favorites multiple times because of the negativity.

 

162 games x 3hours per game = 486 hours a year of either enjoyment of a team that might win or dread of a team that will probably lose. 4 World series wins only add up to maybe 16 hours of enjoyment and even if you add 100 hours of pure euphoria after you have less satisfaction than the 9 years winning record out of 10.(01-10) but many if not most posters on here would rather bash somebody/anybody than remember how much fun it was to watch/listen during those 10 years. No, there was not much postseason success but it was 486 hours of fun x 10 years. Everyone has their version of the magic elixir that would have put us over the top but remember the Braves had Maddux, Glavine, and Smoltz for 10 years and only won 1. 

 

Trust me the WS euphoria wears off real quick when you have to put up with 1993-2000. They were a hell of a lot more painful than the last 6 years.

RE: "the Braves had Maddux, Glavine, and Smoltz for 10 years and only won 1."  I remember one of those 9 years they didn't win.  I think that bumped me up to 486 hours and 5 minutes for 1991. 

 

I agree with you about the 2001-2010 teams - those were a lot of fun and we got to experience some true greatness in Santana and Mauer.  The postseason was disappointing, but I'd rather have that than what we had the past few years. 

[kab21]

 

The twins are good because of their outcomes, not their underlying stats, but Meyer is bad because of his underlying stats, outcomes be damned? 

The Twins record is what it is and they are competing. I haven't expected them to still be contending for the Central but here we are. Even if I still expect them to fall out of it I am still not trading (and throwing the white flag) while they are 1/2 game out. That is an awful thing to do to players and they will absolutely let you know about it.

[USAFChief]

 

My opinion is only worth the paper this isn't written on but comments should never start with, "Everybody..." or "Nobody..." !

Nobody can disagree with this, amiright everyone??

[kab21]

 

What if Sheffiled was a number 4 in 2018, and a number 2 in 19-23? Is that worth giving up on the long shot that is this year? Or, does only this year matter in the analysis?

Awesome. Take the best possible outcome for a prospect and make an argument.

If Sheffield (or whatever prospects you could get) was likely to perform like your prediction then he would be a top 10 overall prospect and a case could be made just like the Yankees trades last year. But the fact is that this is nothing like the Yankees situation this year.

[kab21]

 

You think they can trade the number 15 guy in the org for a competent starter?

 

I'm all for that. good luck on that phone call though.

Great now you are back to don't try. Perhaps they have to pick up a little salary. Oh wait - that's impossible for the Twins also. This is tiresome.

[Mike Sixel]

 

Great now you are back to don't try. Perhaps they have to pick up a little salary. Oh wait - that's impossible for the Twins also. This is tiresome.

 

No, I never once said don't try. But can you name any team getting a good starting pitcher for their 15th ranked prospect?

 

I've said on several threads that if the FO has players they don't like, past number 8 or so on the list, trade them all for good MLB players. But I can't imagine any team trading a good SP for the Twins number 15 prospect. 

[Mike Sixel]

 

The Twins record is what it is and they are competing. I haven't expected them to still be contending for the Central but here we are. Even if I still expect them to fall out of it I am still not trading (and throwing the white flag) while they are 1/2 game out. That is an awful thing to do to players and they will absolutely let you know about it.

 

Uh, that has nothing to do with my post at all. I asked if outcomes matter for predicting the future, or if underlying stats did. No place did that post talk about if they should sell or buy. No. Place.

[Guest]

on the position player side, I can see good things on the horizon. On the pitching side, the cupboard is bare and grocery store is almost empty in the near to mid-term.

Between Gonsalves, Romero, Thorpe and, yes, Stewart, it's been a long time since I've been this optimistic about pitchers coming through the minors, although Stewart needs to do a lot more to prove his turnaround. Good health from one of Jay, Burdi and Chargois would be a bonus.

[Squirrel]

 

No, I never once said don't try. But can you name any team getting a good starting pitcher for their 15th ranked prospect?

 

I've said on several threads that if the FO has players they don't like, past number 8 or so on the list, trade them all for good MLB players. But I can't imagine any team trading a good SP for the Twins number 15 prospect. 

I think I heard kab say a few times 'competent' as in a 3 or 4 starter. That is different, at least in my opinion, from 'good.' I think Santana and Berrios are good; if Mejia keeps it up he might be above competent. If we could get another Mejia type (of recent Mejia), I think that's the kind of move the Twins should do now, for this season, above competent, because what we have had in the others isn't. I don't think that will cost us Gordon. And if it does, that's someone asking for too much and we don't go there.

 

And I think we have a good combo in Rogers/Kintzler. I wouldn't write Duffey off either, if not over used. I think we should be finding better options than Breslow and Belisle. I don't think that's asking a lot either, and I don't think should cost the farm.

 

These are the types of things I want the Twins to do this year. I don't think that's an overly positive direction, and I don't like it when people sell it as such. I think that's fairly modest and a fairly realistic approach. NO ONE knows what any outcome might be, no one. And I think it's a legitimate and valid opinion without a handful of people calling it otherwise because it's not what they would do or want to see done. We have a WINNING RECORD for once in a long time. Most all I think are pretty realistic as to what that means. Yes, some want to sell the farm. It's not an opinion I share. But I think for this year it is a far too conservative approach to do nothing. (And no, I realize you haven't said 'do nothing.') But I think jettisoning what has gotten us to this point will also not play well for the future.

 

Ugh ... I'm just too tired of all of this discussion and side taking and accusations of what their opinions mean because people disagree.

[Mike Sixel]

 

I think I heard kab say a few times 'competent' as in a 3 or 4 starter. That is different, at least in my opinion, from 'good.' I think Santana and Berrios are good; if Mejia keeps it up he might be above competent. If we could get another Mejia type (of recent Mejia), I think that's the kind of move the Twins should do now, for this season, above competent, because what we have had in the others isn't. I don't think that will cost us Gordon. And if it does, that's someone asking for too much and we don't go there.

 

And I think we have a good combo in Rogers/Kintzler. I wouldn't write Duffey off either, if not over used. I think we should be finding better options than Breslow and Belisle. I don't think that's asking a lot either, and I don't think should cost the farm.

 

These are the types of things I want the Twins to do this year. I don't think that's an overly positive direction, and I don't like it when people sell it as such. I think that's fairly modest and a fairly realistic approach. NO ONE knows what any outcome might be, no one. And I think it's a legitimate and valid opinion without a handful of people calling it otherwise because it's not what they would do or want to see done. We have a WINNING RECORD for once in a long time. Most all I think are pretty realistic as to what that means. Yes, some want to sell the farm. It's not an opinion I share. But I think for this year it is a far too conservative approach to do nothing. (And no, I realize you haven't said 'do nothing.') But I think jettisoning what has gotten us to this point will also not play well for the future.

 

Ugh ... I'm just too tired of all of this discussion and side taking and accusations of what their opinions mean because people disagree.

 

I agree the side taking is tiring.....

 

I agree that trading a guy outside their top prospects, in their mind, for short term help, is fine. It's the specifics of a bigger trade I'd want to think about more.

[jimmer]

There are whole threads on TD dedicated to complaining/talking negative about people being 'negative'.

 

Instead of flooding every thread with complaints about negativity, maybe it can be done there so as to not disrupt other threads, like this one.

[Richie the Rally Goat]

 

Between Gonsalves, Romero, Thorpe and, yes, Stewart, it's been a long time since I've been this optimistic about pitchers coming through the minors, although Stewart needs to do a lot more to prove his turnaround. Good health from one of Jay, Burdi and Chargois would be a bonus.

there's real potential, but you can only count on 1 of Romero, Gonsalves, and Thorpe. If things really break right, you might get two major league regulars out of the 4 in the next three years. I doubt any of them spend more than half the 2018 season in the bigs.

 

Agreed, anything you can get from Burdi, Chargois, Jay, and I add in Reed is bonus. Which ever one is healthiest first, bring him up to mop up, probably Reed (over Breslow) ASAP.

[Rosterman]

You look for consistency.

 

You look at age and salary.

 

You look ahead to needs for 2018 and Beyond!

 

The Twins signed Castro to bring some veteran presence to the pitching staff. He may not be the best bat. They didn't trust Murphy and Garver (yet) and signed a backup. Hopefully a one-year rental there. You hope Garver can develop into a future 100 game catcher. The Twins will give Murphy one more shot.

 

Mauer is at first. Where else can he play? Not really in the outfield. We need more power from designated hitting. But he IS the first baseman. The two others, who also could DH, are Vargas (who if you knocked out his part-time numbers for the season would put him at 20+ homers and 90 rbi). The Twins still have money invested in Park, but he is aging. Not sure if Palka could play first. Seemed to remember that Kepler did some innings there in AA ball. Mauer is reminding me of the bashing the Twins used to give Dougie M. at first base until Morneau showed up and got his act together (and he is still available!)

 

We still have Sano at third, and doubt that Dozier is going anywhere at second, although why he is batting leadoff (okay, Buxton isn't doing it, yet). Polanco is showing the mistakes of adding someone to the 40-man too early and not bringing that guy up and giving him playing time in the first years. Now you can't do anything but move him off the eam, or hope this season is a fluke. At worse, he becomes an inexpensive backup. But Escobar will be an expensive backup and although he does show consistency, wel...he's Escobar.

 

The outfield can only egt better. I have few complaints, but they all seem to be about the same, someone a bit better on the field, someone with a tad more power, another a good eye at the plate. The pipeline has Palka and Granite, and Rooker might be fast tracked.

 

It's the pitching that s-u-c-k-s and alot of the anger comes from two areas. The rotation: Santana has been a workhorse and we ALL expect him to fall away from the wagon come 2018. But he still can do the job and, in a sense, is the leader of the staff. Berrios is still learning but showing oh-so-much potential. Mejia is not embarrassing himself. But we aren't seeing breakout success from Gibson. Just the same old same old. You ask why the Twins kept him, and Hector (going to be a free agent so I should be pitching better) Santiago. Yet they lost May, decided to bullpen Duffy, and then there were none. Instead of going after a top-flight pitcher (because we also had Hughes in the mix) the Twins filled the roster with castoffs at Rochester, which kept other names further down the farm. But not sure who those names were. Gonsalves and Stewart were supposed to be at AAA ball by now, instead we have Slegers and Hurlbut with names like Heston and Melville and Gee still looking for their chance, but NOT really being someone we put our hopes into for the future.

 

We all hemmed and hawed at the signings of Belisle and vet Breslow to anchor the bullpen, and crossed-our-fingers that Kintzler is a closer. But we watched Tonkin disappear, Pressly tank, Duffy show weakness and everyone, it seemed, disappear in the minors (Reed, Burdi, Chargois, Jay) and others like Bard, Jones stagnate. Instead we look at names like Curtiss and Hildenberger and go...wow! And we still have Rucinski and Busenitz thinking they can domore, Baxendale who may never get a chance, Melotakis who was  top 20 prospect put into limbo, and Wimmers because he was a high draft choice.

 

That the team is winning we have to shout with joy. Can they compete down the stretch or in the playoffs? We can hope. Is anyone tradable? That is doubtful, really doubtful. Can we grab 1-2-3 pieces that will make the team totally solid and for what price, and do we really have the pieces that other teams will want...someday...anyday.

 

Yes, the team is easy to talk bad about. And even gems like Hildenberger could suddenly have a couple of bad games and we will all get down on the guy, and no matter what Boshers does, no one cuts him slack or gives a damn, it seems. 

 

Remember that the new regime are still getting their feet wet, dealing with hires and personnel from the earlier era, and have to be looking at a five year plan.

 

I guess enjoy it why we can. 

 

But best of all, anyone who plays for the Twins knows this is an opportunity to showcase their talents for work now and tomorrow. Or not.

[Richie the Rally Goat]

 

Mauer is at first. Where else can he play? Not really in the outfield. We need more power from designated hitting. But he IS the first baseman. The two others, who also could DH, are Vargas (who if you knocked out his part-time numbers for the season would put him at 20+ homers and 90 rbi). The Twins still have money invested in Park, but he is aging. Not sure if Palka could play first. Seemed to remember that Kepler did some innings there in AA ball. Mauer is reminding me of the bashing the Twins used to give Dougie M. at first base until Morneau showed up and got his act together (and he is still available!)

 

Sano must be the heir apparent to Mauer. I doubt he's still at 3rd in 2020, and if he is still the third baseman and good at it (better yet!) passable first basemen are regularly available free agents, or someone could emerge rather quickly from the minors.

[laloesch]

 

After 90+ games, the Twins have a winning record. I don't think they're yet playoff contenders, but they're letting young players play and many of them are developing nicely. However, to read the posts on TD, it sounds like they've got a team of crap. Seriously, I just looked at the roster and found maybe seven players that haven't had a forum or series of posts calling for their DFA, demotion or retirement, or who otherwise haven't been the subject of a dialogue with a title like "Why is He on the Team?!"

Here's my count: Hildenberger, Rogers, Kintzler, Santana, Dozier, Sano, Kepler. If you want, you can add Mauer, but that might require some situational forgetfulness. Anyway, add him, that makes eight. It may be generous to include some of these eight on the "not complained about" list, but this count leaves seventeen players whom the screaming masses - well, actually, TD posters, who are probably smarter than the average Bear or Cub about baseball - would like to drive out of town on a rail, without regard to replacement.

This is getting wearing, about as much as the regurgitated "Pohlads are cheap" comments. What are people comparing these players to? Sure, it's not a team of superstars, but it's full of developing, talented players. Sure, it would be great to sign a bunch of big time free agents and trade for several established stars, but haven't you noticed that the core of most of the good teams these days, e.g., Dodgers, Cubs, Astros, Yankees, is made up of home grown players and players who weren't considered valuable by their initial teams? Haven't you also noticed that teams that went out and signed a bunch of free agents or traded for a bunch of established players have failed with that strategy, e.g., Padres, Tigers, White Sox, a few of whom "won" the offseason the last few years?

I understand that young players have to take their knocks, but I don't understand the speed with which they seem to permanently fall into disfavor by not yet competing for All Star berths.

What do you think?

 

What I don't understand is the need to lash out at posters in an op ed thread because some don't like their opinions and think they are "too negative" when they have EVERY RIGHT TO BE CRITICAL of an organization that has made bad decision after bad decision in lock step with 6 virtually uninterrupted (2015 the exception) seasons of utter futility, both on and off the field.  

 

In addition to cheap ownership (which they are) there has been disgraceful play on the field, questionable drafting and player development, and questionable decisions by the FO & Manager in the dugout.  No one here can deny any of that with a straight face because the proof is in the records of years past.  These opinions are just as valid as the op'eds.  Vilifying those who are weary of some of the obvious deficiencies on this team accomplishes nothing. In fact its counterproductive because it drives a wedge between the two perceived groups of fans (glass half full / half empty).  I think most of us can live with a healthy debate on the merits of both sides and their opinions.

 

What I don't like is the tendency of the passive aggressive fans who frequent this site, that argue for the sake of arguing, who post clever snotty condescending remarks, because they don't like the truth and can ever be wrong.  

 

Negativity is a whole different subject and gets into human psychology and off into the weeds away from Twins baseball.    

[Major League Ready]

 

I will repeat - Nobody is talking about a blockbuster for a rental. Some are talking about a very good controllable starter. But I am directly talking about trading the #15-ish org prospect for a competent starter but everyone just replies 'can't compete in the postseason, no reason to make any trades'. And as of a week ago people are still speculating what Ervin Santana can fetch. The Twins are 1/2 GB right now.

 

A back of the rotation (4/5) type started does absolutely nothing for the team's post season chances.  A solid 3 type starter would help a little in getting us to the playoffs but are chances of getting to a playoff series is still probably 2:1 against even with the addition of a solid 3. 

 

The cost of that solid 3 would be far more than a 15ish type prospect.  I am never really sure what these additions costs but I would guess from our system, we would be talking about one player from our top 2 or 3 and two others.  One of them probably 10-13.

 

I thought the Indians would be well ahead in the division and the F/O would not feel the need to pretend like we are contenders in order to satisfy the fan base. There are still plenty of holes on this team and our young core certainly does not look like they are ready just yet.  I sure hope they don't walk away from a Santana trade if a great opportunity to improve the team long-term is presented at the deadline.  I also don't see enough impact players in the system that are not still 2-3 years away.

[laloesch]

 

A back of the rotation (4/5) type started does absolutely nothing for the team's post season chances.  A solid 3 type starter would help a little in getting us to the playoffs but are chances of getting to a playoff series is still probably 2:1 against even with the addition of a solid 3. 

 

The cost of that solid 3 would be far more than a 15ish type prospect.  I am never really sure what these additions costs but I would guess from our system, we would be talking about one player from our top 2 or 3 and two others.  One of them probably 10-13.

 

I thought the Indians would be well ahead in the division and the F/O would not feel the need to pretend like we are contenders in order to satisfy the fan base. There are still plenty of holes on this team and our young core certainly does not look like they are ready just yet.  I sure hope they don't walk away from a Santana trade if a great opportunity to improve the team long-term is presented at the deadline.  I also don't see enough impact players in the system that are not still 2-3 years away.

 

Given how much Quintana garnered I can only imagine what Cole or Gray would fetch in a deal.  I just hope the FO is active and open minded.  Sano and Berrios are really the only major leaguers i would not be willing to part with at this point.  

[Mike Sixel]

 

Given how much Quintana garnered I can only imagine what Cole or Gray would fetch in a deal.  I just hope the FO is active and open minded.  Sano and Berrios are really the only major leaguers i would not be willing to part with at this point.  

 

Qunitana is worth more than either of those two. But, ya, it would not be cheap to get either.

 

Why are the Pirates trading Cole? They are 1 game worse than the Twins right now, and only 3 back in their division (not that I think they have any chance). 

[laloesch]

 

Qunitana is worth more than either of those two. But, ya, it would not be cheap to get either.

 

Why are the Pirates trading Cole? They are 1 game worse than the Twins right now, and only 3 back in their division (not that I think they have any chance). 

 

Was just using him as an example of a guy the Twins could target for a solid #3.  Not saying he is available or anything like that.  Idea came from another poster in another thread.

[Dozier's Glorious Hair]

 

I'm confused by the thread. I'd think talking about Polanco being good or bad, and if he should be the starter instead of Escobar, on a team that some think is a legit contender, makes sense. We should just ignore Rosario, at 25 and 7 years a pro ball player, throwing to the wrong base multiple times this season? I'd think discussing Belisle, Breslow, Boshers, Turley, Colon, nearly every pitcher they've added from the outside, makes sense. I'd think discussing Gimenez vs Garver makes sense. I'd think discussing Haley and him taking up valuable 25 man roster space makes sense.

What, exactly, should we talk about? Just the good stuff?

 

Well, we could talk about Rosario adding 62 points to his OPS this season. We could talk about him walking more, striking out less, and just generally looking more like a legitimate MLB hitter.

 

We could talk about the potential of Joe Mauer and Byron Buxton winning Gold Gloves this season.

 

We could talk about whether or not Ervin Santana can get into the AL Cy Young conversation if he finishes the season strong.

 

We could talk about Jose Berrios establishing himself as a top-of-the-rotation starter after struggling so badly his rookie year.

 

We could talk about where this team would be right now were it not for Brandon Kintzler and Taylor Rogers.

 

We could talk about Miguel Sano becoming that 40 HR/120 RBI guy we all hoped he could be. We could talk about where he fits in the AL MVP conversation, particularly if he carries the team into the postseason.

 

We could about Max Kepler's progress. We could talk about what his ceiling is. We could talk about his defense. We could talk about that freakin' swing.

 

We could talk about what a nice find Robbie Grossman turned out to be.

 

...or we could just talk about the bad stuff.

 

This is the bottom line for me, and it's cool if we disagree on this: The team simply isn't bad enough to warrant so much negativity. Just my opinion.