Passan: Dodgers Nearing Deal for Forsythe

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

I actually thought Knapp had good things to say about De Leon. He likes his ceiling more than most but admits he's still a bit of a project.

[Otto von Ballpark]

Remember, every team supposedly has a complete book on every other player in every organization, and all that. It's not something I personally buy into, but i've seen it suggested here.

Sure, but that is more of an org thing. The Dodgers as a whole probably have a lot of info on Dozier. The Twins had info on De Leon I am sure. But the minor league pitching coordinator for the Dodgers probably had very little special knowledge about Dozier.

[Otto von Ballpark]

Better nickname: Bull Dozier or Ponce De Leon?

[Riverbrian]

 

Better nickname: Bull Dozier or Ponce De Leon?

 

OR

 

http://images4.fanpop.com/image/photos/20000000/Ponch-chips-20034302-781-1000.jpg

[HawkeyeDodger]

I do trust Chris Camello's tweets/sources.  From what he has stated in the last few days Stewart may or may not have been added to the deal, but Alex Wood definitely was added and when the Twins balked at Wood the Dodgers had him going to Seatte for a prospect more to the Twins liking. 

 

I thought Wood would make a nice second piece, but I understand the Twins may have wanted someone with more than 3 years of control.  It is also very likely this happened because the Dodgers are very lefty heavy on the mound right now too.  Kershaw, Hill, Urias, Ryu, Kazmir,and Wood are all lefties.  The bullpen has Dayton, Liberatore, Avilan, and Nuno who are all lefties too.  

[nicksaviking]

The Twins already have one sinkerballer in the rotation.

[glunn]

Moderator warning -- no one knows with any certainty what was offered and there is far too much bickering going on in this thread. Please stop beating horses that you cannot see,

[HitInAPinch]

On this day in history, Generalissimo Francisco Franco is still dead.  And Brian Dozier is still with the Twins.

[DodgerFan1234]

I live in LA. There was a column in the LA Times this week about this. The basic takeaways are (1) the Dodgers don't consider DeLeon an "elite" prospect so were happy to trade him, (2) the Dodgers don't and won't trade away "elite" prospects, (3) the Dodgers are going away from trades and free agency to build internally, and (4) The Dodgers would have preferred Dozier but balked at the Twins request for an "elite" prospect and one close to that level. Probably all spin, but that's what they are telling the LA media.

. Well, it's not spin if that's what actually happened. My wife asked me what I thought about the trade. I told her that I was fine with it because JDL was a good (not great) prospect and with the rumor of the more being Alvarez, Foresythe was more than fine. If you go by wRC, Dodgers got a steal.

[twinssouth]

Probably already posted, Knapp also said, he viewed Deleon as 3 starter. 42 homer Dozier for a no. 3 starter prospect straight up is a bad deal.

[Mike Sixel]

 

Probably already posted, Knapp also said, he viewed Deleon as 3 starter. 42 homer Dozier for a no. 3 starter prospect straight up is a bad deal.

 

This completely ignores context, and that Dozier is signed for 2 years, and JDL is controlled for 6, imo. If you really think JDL is a three, you make that deal all day. If you are only 75% sure, maybe you want a flyer on top of that.....but unless you think the Twins are in the playoffs this year, what good is 1 year of Dozier? Before you answer "you can always trade him later"....I assume, since you won't do it for a number three, you'd want more than that, what would it take later?

[Doomtints]

 

Probably already posted, Knapp also said, he viewed Deleon as 3 starter. 42 homer Dozier for a no. 3 starter prospect straight up is a bad deal.

 

There have been numerous reports that state that a 1:1 trade was never the deal. Not sure why some Twins fans keep saying this was the deal. Maybe it's to feel better about it falling through?

[Doomtints]

 

This completely ignores context, and that Dozier is signed for 2 years, and JDL is controlled for 6, imo. If you really think JDL is a three, you make that deal all day. If you are only 75% sure, maybe you want a flyer on top of that.....but unless you think the Twins are in the playoffs this year, what good is 1 year of Dozier? Before you answer "you can always trade him later"....I assume, since you won't do it for a number three, you'd want more than that, what would it take later?

 

Heck, you don't even have to get into it that way. There's the whole "this asset is worthless to us, but is worth something on the market" coupled with the "we are starving for this other resource" aspect.

He's just a mere #3 guy? So what. The team currently has a #2.5 guy and 7-8 #5.5 guys. An opportunity was missed to make a HUGE improvement that would actually have saved the team money.

 

This is sort of like the old, "Dude, you had ONE job" meme.

 

Or maybe it's, "Keeping doing the same thing but expecting a different result."

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Or maybe it's, "Keeping doing the same thing but expecting a different result."

Falvey keeps doing the same thing with the Twins while expecting different results?

[Doomtints]

 

Falvey keeps doing the same thing with the Twins while expecting different results?

Let me go ahead and finish that for you: "OMG Falvey was just hired, n00b!"

To answer your question, yes, the Twins are doing the same thing with Falvey/Levine as they were doing before. Do you disagree?

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

Let me go ahead and finish that for you: "OMG Falvey was just hired, n00b!"

To answer your question, yes, the Twins are doing the same thing with Falvey/Levine as they were doing before. Do you disagree?

 

Yes.  For now at least.  I think I'll need more than one data point to come to that conclusion.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Let me go ahead and finish that for you: "OMG Falvey was just hired, n00b!"

To answer your question, yes, the Twins are doing the same thing with Falvey/Levine as they were doing before. Do you disagree?

Do I disagree? What do you think?

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

This completely ignores context, and that Dozier is signed for 2 years, and JDL is controlled for 6, imo. If you really think JDL is a three, you make that deal all day. If you are only 75% sure, maybe you want a flyer on top of that.....but unless you think the Twins are in the playoffs this year, what good is 1 year of Dozier? Before you answer "you can always trade him later"....I assume, since you won't do it for a number three, you'd want more than that, what would it take later?

Maybe the Twins are only 50% sure De Leon can be a three? Maybe the Twins don't see De Leon as highly as a couple of the national media guys do.

 

Also, I would guess a baseball lifer like Knapp knows the context of the trade talks, player rules, etc., in addition to personal information he surely knows about De Leon that he would never share with Berardino.

[HawkeyeDodger]

 

I actually thought Knapp had good things to say about De Leon. He likes his ceiling more than most but admits he's still a bit of a project.

i did too.  I thought it was a good article.  It should alleviates some of the concerns about his shoulder and backed up what I said about him losing too much weight going into camp last year.  I did find it strange that he said the Dodgers don't like Sborz considering he was a 2nd rd. draft pick and just got an invite to big league camp.  I think it might be more accurate to say that he may be viewed as a bullpen piece rather than a starter, but to say they don't like him seemed off to me.  

 

For what it's worth there was an article today that said Ned Coletti viewed him as a number 3-5 starter.  Then again Ned is fetching Stan Kasten's coffee and doing pre-game work on SportsNet LA because they didn't trust him with the prospects.  

[twinssouth]

This completely ignores context, and that Dozier is signed for 2 years, and JDL is controlled for 6, imo. If you really think JDL is a three, you make that deal all day. If you are only 75% sure, maybe you want a flyer on top of that.....but unless you think the Twins are in the playoffs this year, what good is 1 year of Dozier? Before you answer "you can always trade him later"....I assume, since you won't do it for a number three, you'd want more than that, what would it take later?

 

"you can always trade him later"....

 

If that's the best you can get, yep, I would trade Dozier later

[TheLeviathan]

 

"you can always trade him later"....

If that's the best you can get, yep, I would trade Dozier later

 

Well, you're just not likely to get the same value later.  You're highly unlikely to even get close.

 

I hope we buck that trend though.

[nicksaviking]

Well, you're just not likely to get the same value later. You're highly unlikely to even get close.

 

I hope we buck that trend though.

Eduardo Nunez of all people got a prospect of not much considerable difference last summer.

 

Even though some of our posters hold De Leon in much higher regard than I, the fact that an infielder most people here wanted to DFA last winter got a borderline top 100 prospect is pretty suggestive that trying to move Dozer this summer isn't quite the fool's errand being presented.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Eduardo Nunez of all people got a prospect of not much considerable difference last summer.

Even though some of our posters hold De Leon in much higher regard than I, the fact that an infielder most people here wanted to DFA last winter got a borderline top 100 prospect is pretty suggestive that trying to move Dozer this summer isn't quite the fool's errand being presented.

 

Well, sure, if you're going to present the 30-40ish best prospect and the 100ish best as "not much considerable difference" than sure.  

 

I doubt anyone on this board would accept that premise but for this situation.  C'mon.

[jimmer]

Let's see:

 

Prospect A, pre-2016 was ranked 23rd by BA, 24th by MLB, and 28th by BP.

Carries a 3.35 ERA,  1.125 WHIP with 12.1K/2.9 BB.

 

Prospect B, pre-2016 was ranked, um, not in the top 100 by BA, MLB or BP.

Carries a 3.29 ERA, 1.180 WHIP with a 7.7K/2.1BB

 

Practically the same guy.  Cause ERA.

[The Wise One]

Mejia has a ceiling that was said to be a mid rotation pitcher. Deleon has the same ceiling. Neither is likely to be that  anytime soon. Deleon is  more likely than Mejia to reach that ceiling. Neither is really a sure thing.

 Mid rotation guys are the 1 to 2 War pitchers that occasionally sneak a better year in. A 1-2 war player for 6 years does not equal Dozier for 2 years . 

[nicksaviking]

Let's see:

 

Prospect A, pre-2016 was ranked 23rd by BA, 24th by MLB, and 28th by BP.

Carries a 3.35 ERA,  1.125 WHIP with 12.1K/2.9 BB.

 

Prospect B, pre-2016 was ranked, um, not in the top 100 by BA, MLB or BP.

Carries a 3.29 ERA, 1.180 WHIP with a 7.7K/2.1BB

 

Practically the same guy.  Cause ERA.

Prospect A is a soft tossing righty with a change up and a sore shoulder.

 

Prospect B is a soft tossing lefty with four pitches and no known shoulder issues.

 

AAA hitters getting fooled by a change up? Unheard of.

 

Would I take De Leon over Mejia? Sure. But the gulf isn't so vast not to try to do better than both later.

[TheLeviathan]

Mejia has a ceiling that was said to be a mid rotation pitcher. Deleon has the same ceiling. Neither is likely to be that  anytime soon. Deleon is  more likely than Mejia to reach that ceiling. Neither is really a sure thing.

 Mid rotation guys are the 1 to 2 War pitchers that occasionally sneak a better year in. A 1-2 war player for 6 years does not equal Dozier for 2 years .

 

No prospect is a sure thing. You will not get a sure thing arm for Brian Dozier.

 

I can't believe this is being pushed. Would any of you say this about Meija and Berrios?

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

i did too.  I thought it was a good article.  It should alleviates some of the concerns about his shoulder and backed up what I said about him losing too much weight going into camp last year.  I did find it strange that he said the Dodgers don't like Sborz considering he was a 2nd rd. draft pick and just got an invite to big league camp.  I think it might be more accurate to say that he may be viewed as a bullpen piece rather than a starter, but to say they don't like him seemed off to me.  

 

For what it's worth there was an article today that said Ned Coletti viewed him as a number 3-5 starter.  Then again Ned is fetching Stan Kasten's coffee and doing pre-game work on SportsNet LA because they didn't trust him with the prospects.

 

Agreed, Knapp gave some context to De Leon's shoulder issue, which might have alleviated some concern about him here if this trade were still a possibility.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

No prospect is a sure thing. You will not get a sure thing arm for Brian Dozier.

I will confess that it's possible the Twins never lowered their asking from De Leon + another Top 3-5 prospect. And if so, and because prospects are not sure things, I still feel the fair deal was closer to what the Twins were asking than the Dodgers hoping to give just De Leon and minor piece(s) (which is still what I personally believe).

[TheLeviathan]

I will confess that it's possible the Twins never lowered their asking from De Leon + another Top 3-5 prospect. And if so, and because prospects are not sure things, I still feel the fair deal was closer to what the Twins were asking than the Dodgers hoping to give just De Leon and minor piece(s) (which is still what I personally believe).

Perfectly fair and reasonable position.

 

My comment was more to illustrate the hypocrisy of trying to equate Meija and a guy who comps quite closely to Berrios. If I started a thread and said there was basically "no difference" in upside between those two there would be a riot. And rightfully so.