Passan: Dodgers Nearing Deal for Forsythe

[DaveW]

I was speaking of Buehler.

ahhhh got it.

 

Yeah I was never very high on him personally.

[jimmer]

 

ahhhh got it.

Yeah I was never very high on him personally.

I like me some Buehler

[Thrylos]

 

This is the same ownership that let the Twins dance around in mediocrity for 20+ years

 

Not really.  Carl Pohlad is dead last time I checked

 

The problem with the Twins' ownership is that they are not Twins' fans.  They care more about making $ than having the team win.  The fact that the owner admitted that he is not even watching most of the games speaks volumes.  He cares about baseball as much as he cares about his brother's movies.

 

They gotta sell to people who are Twins' fans and care

 

Bottom line.

[Oxtung]

 

Off topic, but why is there never spaces behind my sentences?  It's really annoying. 

Something to do with the message board itself. If you put only a single space after your periods things will display correctly.

[TyTY23]

 

I like me some Buehler.

If Buehler holds up physically, he will be another top prospect is an already deep farm system. 

[HawkeyeDodger]

 

I wonder if the Dodgers had this deal in their back pocket for a while and just never budged with the Twins.

Sounds like that is the case.  Also, Friedman unlike Madden left on very good terms with ownership there.  

[jimmer]

Dodgers Trade for Brian Dozier, Basically

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/dodgers-trade-for-brian-dozier-basically/

 

[DaveW]

Dodgers Trade for Brian Dozier, Basically

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/dodgers-trade-for-brian-dozier-basically/

Very misleading IMO, it's foolish not to include doziers 2014, Dozier was hurt 2nd half of 2015 which is why His numbers took a dive.

[jimmer]

 

Very misleading IMO, it's foolish not to include doziers 2014, Dozier was hurt 2nd half of 2015 which is why His numbers took a dive.

I'm providing info written, people can do with it what they want.

[DaveW]

I'm providing info written, people can do with it what they want.

oh I know, I was just saying imo that article is misleading because it purposely ignores his 2014 and doesn't mention the injury.

[gunnarthor]

I don't think there's anything in there that's too far off. I think the article points out a few of the concerns we all had for De Leon fairly well and in a neutral way. Dozier is the better player but if you can get Forsythe for just De Leon, why pay more? 

[Squirrel]

Moderator warning: As is always the case around issues where there are strong and passionate disagreements, it's difficult to not make/take things personally ... but please try. First off, this isn't a thread about Dave's source. He brought us some information, we discussed it a LOT a LOT a LOT, along with other rumors out there, and it didn't work out. So let's not make it about Dave and his credibility, because that isn't the case. Discuss and disagree all you want, but don't shoot the messenger, no matter what your feelings are about said messenger. Second, when you disagree with people, leave out the snottiness and the smug 'I'm right' attitudes. That's a good way to fire up the making it/taking it personal, and it doesn't further anyone's good points of discussion. Third, as frustrated as we are about the state of the Twins, it's just a game. Be angry if you want. Question the decisions all you want. Make points about what you think should have been done/not done. But do so respectfully of one another, the FO, players here or there, on-field managers, etc. I've been generous about not handing out warning points, but I'm going to continue to be quick-handed at hiding posts and comments that lead to nothing but squabbling.

 

And the same goes for the other Dozier thread.

 

Thank you for your consideration.

[markos]

 

oh I know, I was just saying imo that article is misleading because it purposely ignores his 2014 and doesn't mention the injury.

I'm not sure that playing crappily through an injury for several months is a positive thing. 

[DodgerFan1234]

I look at it as a matter of trade-offs. The way I look at it, the Dodgers just acquired Forsythe Alvarez and a 3rd piece for Dozier. That is if DaveW's source is to be believed. I do that deal every day and twice on Tuesday. Terrible performance by the Twins FO if true.

[PseudoSABR]

 

I wonder if the Dodgers had this deal in their back pocket for a while and just never budged with the Twins.

That's precisely what I thought.  It certainly would explain why their was long-going stalemate.  

 

The Dodgers never had any reason to offer value for Dozier, knowing they had a value-equivalency deal in their back pocket.  The Dodgers could steadfastly keep a below value deal on the table on the off-chance the Twins took it out of desperate need to rebuild/make a splash.  

[DaveW]

I'm not sure that playing crappily through an injury for several months is a positive thing.

Yeah it's up for debate but the other options he Twins had weren't pretty. And they were in the hunt at the time.

[TheLeviathan]

 

I wonder if the Dodgers had this deal in their back pocket for a while and just never budged with the Twins.

 

Just to offer the flip side, it's possible they kept this deal on the back burner hoping the Twins would come down from their demands as well.  For me, this confirms my worst fear - neither side was being reasonable.

 

I can't believe we couldn't find a way to make this work.  It's a huge setback IMO.

[drjim]

 

That's precisely what I thought.  It certainly would explain why their was long-going stalemate.  

 

The Dodgers never had any reason to offer value for Dozier, knowing they had a value-equivalency deal in their back pocket.  The Dodgers could steadfastly keep a below value deal on the table on the off-chance the Twins took it out of desperate need to rebuild/make a splash.  

 

And I would emphasize the desperation in this equation.

[bluechipper]

 

Dodgers Trade for Brian Dozier, Basically

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/dodgers-trade-for-brian-dozier-basically/

Sure, they're basically the same, if you subtract 33 HRs and 56 RBIs over the last 2 years... But I guess those numbers don't mean much to fangraphs.

[jimmer]

 

Sure, they're basically the same, if you subtract 33 HRs and 56 RBIs over the last 2 years... But I guess those numbers don't mean much to fangraphs.

One guys opinion at Fangraphs, not Fangraphs entirely.  And there is more to the game than HR and RBI, BTW.  Reading the article closely might shed light on that.

[LewFordLives]

 

I wonder if the Dodgers had this deal in their back pocket for a while and just never budged with the Twins.

I agree 100 percent. There's no way the Dodgers were ever dealing exclusively with the Twins. They had to at least be putting feelers out on Forsythe, Kinsler, etc...   They probably knew about what it was going to cost them to get Forsythe and weren't willing to go much higher than that for Dozier.

 

I know some people see this as a missed opportunity to add some good young pitching, but Deleon straight up for Dozier is a trade the Twins just could not make. A one for one swap of an established all-star second baseman for a pitching prospect is just too risky. Plus, they can probably trade him at the trade deadline or next offseason and still get someone close to Deleon's caliber.

[bluechipper]

 

One guys opinion at Fangraphs, not Fangraphs entirely.  And there is more to the game than HR and RBI, BTW.

Like fielding and baserunning? Dozier is better in those areas too.

[drivlikejehu]

Steamer and ZiPS both like Dozier for almost 2 WAR more than Forsythe in 2017. They aren't even in the same category in terms of value.

 

The move makes sense for the Dodgers because they are already good, not because Forsythe is comparable to Dozier.

[Mike Sixel]

The problem is that this source is being used to render a judgment on the non-trade, i.e. that the Twins screwed up by not taking De Leon and Alvarez. So unless that claim is out of bounds, it's impossible to ignore the nature of the information.

I see no one on this thread doing that. Actually, I see some saying just De Leon is enough, some saying we don't know the offer, and others saying it was only De Leon like they know the offer. I see no one on this thread doing what you say....

[jimmer]

 

Like fielding and baserunning? Dozier is better in those areas too.

If you read it and don't believe it, then fine.  They did a 2 year comparison and showed they are very close.  Not exactly the same, but close enough.  Buy it, don't buy it, doesn't matter.  I don't buy Dozier's 2016 as repeatable either.

[DodgerFan1234]

The general consensus on the Dodger forums is, and I'm quoting a couple of people "eat it Twins!" (The FO, not the fans). IMO, the Twins are taking a HUGE gamble and I see a lot more downside than upside for the FO. Good luck, Twins fans.

[Mike Sixel]

I agree 100 percent. There's no way the Dodgers were ever dealing exclusively with the Twins. They had to at least be putting feelers out on Forsythe, Kinsler, etc...   They probably knew about what it was going to cost them to get Forsythe and weren't willing to go much higher than that for Dozier.

 

I know some people see this as a missed opportunity to add some good young pitching, but Deleon straight up for Dozier is a trade the Twins just could not make. A one for one swap of an established all-star second baseman for a pitching prospect is just too risky. Plus, they can probably trade him at the trade deadline or next offseason and still get someone close to Deleon's caliber.

Based on no one making such an offer now? What makes you think they van get a top ten pitching prospect in the future? And why take that then, if not now?

[Otto von Ballpark]

https://twitter.com/jonmorosi/status/823689754839486464

Doesn't this Morosi tweet (Twins wanted 2 additional players) suggest that the Dodgers were maybe offering one guy in addition to De Leon? Not Alvarez or another top guy, but I do wonder about Calhoun or other less mentioned prospects. Not quite junk, even if many believe it still wasn't enough.

[drivlikejehu]

 

Doesn't this Morosi tweet (Twins wanted 2 additional players) suggest that the Dodgers were maybe offering one guy in addition to De Leon? Not Alvarez or another top guy, but I do wonder about Calhoun or other less mentioned prospects. Not quite junk, even if many believe it still wasn't enough.

 

It really doesn't suggest anything. The Dodgers I'm sure would have given the Twins a couple C prospects in addition to De Leon. That tweet says nothing about what quantity or quality was offered beyond De Leon, i.e. it doesn't help to evaluate the non-trade at all.

[Otto von Ballpark]

... And Buehler was the 7th or 8th overall pick just a couple of years ago, and so they'd want to keep him coming off of TJ Surgery too.

It doesn't change your point, but Buehler was actually chosen 24th overall. (Don't think the Dodgers have chose as high as 8th recently!)