Honest qustion: How have the Twins not fired Ryan and/or Molitor at this point?

[alarp33]

 

I think Bill Smith gets blamed way more than he should.

He wasn't a great GM, but he wasn't as bad as people say.

 

Probably true. But they can do a hell of a lot better than him, or Antony. They are the only organization in sports that think they have to make every hire internally

[wsnydes]

 

Alcoholism affects  more than the alcoholic. DUI as the singular crime is victimless.   Your other analogy is pure hogwash in terms of what Thrylos said. Allen has 20 years experience coaching pitching. The guy must be masterful at something to keep getting hired. Will he be the fall guy for the injuries and inconsistencies.? You bet. Might even take Mollie with him

I have no interest in hijacking this thread, but I challenge you to ask friends and family of a loved one that was killed by a drunk driver to see if they feel that DUI is a victimless crime.

[mikelink45]

Bring back Bill Smith?  I am far from a TR supporter or fan - I think he is terrible, but who will they get?  Promote from within, go down the list of buddies and soon we have a TR/BS clone and then what?  With the mess he was given and with TR calling the shots I have no judgment about Molitor as a manager.

 

The one thing I keep seeing is the Mets, Dodgers, Astros, Cubs...bringing up a young prospect and he shines!  The Twins bring up our top farm team prospects and they struggle.  It is becoming a pattern that needs to change.

[Han Joelo]

 

 

 

The one thing I keep seeing is the Mets, Dodgers, Astros, Cubs...bringing up a young prospect and he shines!  The Twins bring up our top farm team prospects and they struggle.  It is becoming a pattern that needs to change.

I share that sentiment, BUT, I also suspect it is because I don't live and breathe those teams.  All I see is the national reporting, so sure, I hear about Correa or whomever and it seems like the Twins are failing.  SSS is always brought up, and in prospect development I think you have to take a pretty long view.

 

As it is, I do know that the Mets recently demoted Conforto (they're ruining him by yo-yoing him!) and the Astros signed a guy (Carter?  He's a 1B) to a long term contract before he hit the bigs because he was THAT good, and…he's never hit the bigs.  Or hit in the bigs.

[alarp33]

 

 the Astros signed a guy (Carter?  He's a 1B) to a long term contract before he hit the bigs because he was THAT good, and…he's never hit the bigs.  Or hit in the bigs.

 

It was Jon Singleton, and they gave him $10 million over 5 years... And he got ripped for accepting it, but it worked out ok for him... I would hardly say the $2 mill/ year is crippling the Astros..

 

 

 

 

[Mike Sixel]

 

It was Jon Singleton, and they gave him $10 million over 5 years... And he got ripped for accepting it, but it worked out ok for him... I would hardly say the $2 mill/ year is crippling the Astros..

 

Ya, there was a lot of bragging at the beginning of the year, about how the Astros were not good, and "see, it takes more time than you say".....meanwhile the Cubs and Astros continue to win....

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

because I was responding to someone who said TR had no more supporters? Do you think thats true? no? Neither do i and i said so in a succinct and non-insulting way. You wont convince me there is a problem with doing that. You have turned it into something more, not me.

 

I honestly don't know why you even need to respond to that.  You in particular just cannot seem to let it go (and you aren't the only one either).  I used your post because it's a clear example of what it is that really irks people around here.  We see that all the time in reports, and it's a common theme when threads go crazy and we need to step in.  People start arguing positions that literally no one (or maybe one person) is taking because they respond to a meme instead of a point.

 

As I said before, I'd be surprised if I could fit the TR supporters on this site on one hand.  There are hundreds, maybe thousands, of people that post here regularly, and you feel the need to call out what amounts to maybe 2 or 3 individuals, and you in particular love to do so at just about any occasion you get.  JUST STOP.  You may not be insulting people in particular, but you are antagonizing them, and more often than not the "other posters" meme comes complete with a mis-characterization of their opinions and thought process, which most rational people will find insulting for no other reason than the simple fact that it's obvious they aren't being heard. 

 

There's enough vitriol on these boards as it is given the season the Twins are having.  We don't need to pile on to it, and this us vs. them theme certainly does that while providing ABSOLUTELY NOTHING CONSTRUCTIVE.  There are thousands of people who post here, and there's far more than 2 opinions as to the where, when, what, how, and why of baseball management.  Stick to points being made and discuss, but stop stereotyping people.

 

PS.  This is a mod warning.  This thread has already had far more reports than it should have.

 

 

[Steve Lein]

TR went into the red on my approval rating 2+ years ago.

 

I (almost) literally have not understood any of the roster moves he has made since then. I also have no idea how anyone thinks he deserves to keep his job after the results of these past 5+ seasons. The Pohlad's are scared and don't know what they're doing just as much as him right now, is my guess.

 

If the Twins had committed 100% to a rebuild like Houston did after their Target Field honeymoon ended, theoretically the Twins might be where Houston is now. Since they did not, we're here in 2016 still trying to take that first step in a turnaround.

 

I didn't think the Twins would be nearly this bad this year, but I also didn't believe their 2015 season was representative of where they actually were in their turnaround effort.

 

This miscalculation to where the Twins are this year after 2015 alone, I think would be grounds to fire a GM in several other organizations.

 

 

[Taildragger8791]

Did anyone else catch the article on mlb.com where Reggie Jackson gave an impromptu mini-lesson to Kepler during batting practice in New York?

 

http://m.twins.mlb.com/news/article/186729982/max-kepler-gets-bp-advice-from-reggie-Jackson

 

Pretty cool of him to do that, but the thing I found interesting at the end of the article was a quote from Kepler stating that nobody had taught him to hit around the field during BP. He just got up there and swung the bat instead of going through an effective routine. That seems like a pretty fundamental aspect of practice and getting prepped for a game, and I know I've heard other good hitters talk about doing the same thing. Why would this not be getting drilled into young players before or shortly after they get to the majors? I remember hearing similar stuff about Arcia & Vargas having homerun derbies with their BP. Shouldn't coaches assert themselves over BP instead of just letting guys mindlessly yack around? Particularly with top prospects?

 

It sounds like a small thing but casual fans don't get many peeks into the process of developing these players. When everyone is struggling and anecdotes like this come out it doesn't exactly ease concerns for the way this staff is operating.

Maybe I read too much into it. Shrug.

[Steve Lein]

 

Did anyone else catch the article on mlb.com where Reggie Jackson gave an impromptu mini-lesson to Kepler during batting practice in New York?

 

http://m.twins.mlb.com/news/article/186729982/max-kepler-gets-bp-advice-from-reggie-Jackson

 

Pretty cool of him to do that, but the thing I found interesting at the end of the article was a quote from Kepler stating that nobody had taught him to hit around the field during BP. He just got up there and swung the bat instead of going through an effective routine. That seems like a pretty fundamental aspect of practice and getting prepped for a game, and I know I've heard other good hitters talk about doing the same thing. Why would this not be getting drilled into young players before or shortly after they get to the majors? 

 

This was something I was taught to do in BP as a 9th grader. From then on my rounds were 3 the other way, 3 up the middle, 3 pulled, then let her rip for 3.

[Steve Lein]

 

You can explain however you would like.  The team is on pace to win 53 games this season and is 373-513 since the start of 2011.  Don't need to polish a turd and try to pass it off as something else, we all see its a turd

 

What he said.

[Thrylos]

 

 

 

This miscalculation to where the Twins are this year after 2015 alone, I think would be grounds to fire a GM in several  any other organizations.

 

FTFY

[wsnydes]

 

Did anyone else catch the article on mlb.com where Reggie Jackson gave an impromptu mini-lesson to Kepler during batting practice in New York?

 

http://m.twins.mlb.com/news/article/186729982/max-kepler-gets-bp-advice-from-reggie-Jackson

 

Pretty cool of him to do that, but the thing I found interesting at the end of the article was a quote from Kepler stating that nobody had taught him to hit around the field during BP. He just got up there and swung the bat instead of going through an effective routine. That seems like a pretty fundamental aspect of practice and getting prepped for a game, and I know I've heard other good hitters talk about doing the same thing. Why would this not be getting drilled into young players before or shortly after they get to the majors? I remember hearing similar stuff about Arcia & Vargas having homerun derbies with their BP. Shouldn't coaches assert themselves over BP instead of just letting guys mindlessly yack around? Particularly with top prospects?

 

It sounds like a small thing but casual fans don't get many peeks into the process of developing these players. When everyone is struggling and anecdotes like this come out it doesn't exactly ease concerns for the way this staff is operating.

Maybe I read too much into it. Shrug.

I was alarmed by that point too.  BP is not just to warm up, its also practice.  Practice with a purpose.

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

I was alarmed by that point too.  BP is not just to warm up, its also practice.  Practice with a purpose.

Perhaps they changed their position on it after David Ortiz castigated them rather publicly for it? 

 

Who knows.. I tend to agree... those are things I work on when I'm taking swings, and I'm far from major league quality. 

[DaveW]

 

, and I'm far from major league quality. 

You are a major league quality mod in my heart.

 

/hopes diehardtwinsfan takes some of my warning points away

[DaveW]

Perhaps most damning for TR is now even his "moves" that looked to be ok/good initially now look pretty bad.

 

For instance:

Park- Got off to a real hot start, looked like a good signing (even though the Twins had some depth at DH) however, Park has a sub .400 lately and a sub .650 OPS overall. Needless to say, that is completely unacceptable for a DH/1B type. Couple that with Arcia being let go (partly because Park is here) and this looks like a poor signing/decision as things stand now.

 

Jepsen- Nice 28 innings last year, this year he has been a complete disaster. Not looking like a good trade at all at this stage.

 

Grossman- Stock is falling faster than the pound after the Brexit vote.

Honestly the only move made in the last two years that seems to have worked is Abad, who has been a nice Loogy.

 

At some point it's not just bad luck, its poor leadership/decision making.

[lukeduke1980]

 

Perhaps most damning for TR is now even his "moves" that looked to be ok/good initially now look pretty bad.

 

For instance:

Park- Got off to a real hot start, looked like a good signing (even though the Twins had some depth at DH) however, Park has a sub .400 lately and a sub .650 OPS overall. Needless to say, that is completely unacceptable for a DH/1B type. Couple that with Arcia being let go (partly because Park is here) and this looks like a poor signing/decision as things stand now.

 

Jepsen- Nice 28 innings last year, this year he has been a complete disaster. Not looking like a good trade at all at this stage.

 

Grossman- Stock is falling faster than the pound after the Brexit vote.

Honestly the only move made in the last two years that seems to have worked is Abad, who has been a nice Loogy.

 

At some point it's not just bad luck, its poor leadership/decision making.

I'm not a Bruno hater, but Park, Grossman, Buxton, Arcia, Mauer, Plouffe, Rosario etc have not improved on seemingly anything this year while at the Major League level.  Suzuki changed his bat - likely not from Brunansky's suggestions.  I don't understand why you wouldn't try (coaching) change for change's sake during a season of futility.

[Minniman]

It is the coaching, GM, and scouting.

 

Pitching is often worse here.

 

Batting is often worse here.

 

Players come and go without value trades.

 

The Twins trade for duds from other organizations.

 

Even Casey Fien is playing better in LA.

 

The Twins have not had a quality pitching starter come from their own draft in many years.

 

How does a team that consistently loses 90 games each season only hire from within?

 

The Twins organization, from top to bottom, is a failure.

 

 

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

You are a major league quality mod in my heart.

 

/hopes diehardtwinsfan takes some of my warning points away

 

Flattery gets you no where

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

Perhaps most damning for TR is now even his "moves" that looked to be ok/good initially now look pretty bad.

 

For instance:

Park- Got off to a real hot start, looked like a good signing (even though the Twins had some depth at DH) however, Park has a sub .400 lately and a sub .650 OPS overall. Needless to say, that is completely unacceptable for a DH/1B type. Couple that with Arcia being let go (partly because Park is here) and this looks like a poor signing/decision as things stand now.

 

Jepsen- Nice 28 innings last year, this year he has been a complete disaster. Not looking like a good trade at all at this stage.

 

Grossman- Stock is falling faster than the pound after the Brexit vote.

Honestly the only move made in the last two years that seems to have worked is Abad, who has been a nice Loogy.

 

At some point it's not just bad luck, its poor leadership/decision making.

 

I still think Park was a good move...  It never hurts to add talent... Problem is how they handled it post (not trading Plouffe, though I'll defend them a bit given the returns on much better options this season).  The problem though is what they realized when they bid on Park... he needs work.  He got off to a decent start and pitchers adjusted.  He has to adjust back.  That's going to be harder for him as he hasn't had to face that level of competition, and AAA might be the answer there.  DFAing Arcia certainly was not, though I doubt you disagree there.  The correct decision at this point would have been some time in AAA.  I think he'd benefit from that.

 

But yeah, I'm with you on the leadership...  I think there's a change coming this year, and I don't think TR is going to be able to pick his successor this time.  He may very well get the respect of being able to retire, but I wouldn't be surprised if that gets announced in September so they can start looking for a replacement.  Something I've heard on the minor league forums is that scouts in the Twins org are legitimately concerned they will be employed next year.  Lots of people are worried, and they should be.  When the owner uses the words "total system failure" that pretty much means total failure.  My real concern though is that I don't think scouting is where the org's problem is.  I think it's development.  That's why I wanted Gardy's replacement to be one with a good reputation working with the kids... I'm not happy with what I've seen from Molitor in that respect, and one point I have to think TR needs to step in. I admire that he is fairly hands off for the most part... that is usually a good quality in a manager, but there's a time to step in too, and TR has clearly shown that this isn't something he will do.

[DaveW]

 

I still think Park was a good move...  It never hurts to add talent... Problem is how they handled it post (not trading Plouffe, though I'll defend them a bit given the returns on much better options this season).  The problem though is what they realized when they bid on Park... he needs work.  He got off to a decent start and pitchers adjusted.  He has to adjust back.  That's going to be harder for him as he hasn't had to face that level of competition, and AAA might be the answer there.  DFAing Arcia certainly was not, though I doubt you disagree there.  The correct decision at this point would have been some time in AAA.  I think he'd benefit from that.

 

But yeah, I'm with you on the leadership...  I think there's a change coming this year, and I don't think TR is going to be able to pick his successor this time.  He may very well get the respect of being able to retire, but I wouldn't be surprised if that gets announced in September so they can start looking for a replacement.  Something I've heard on the minor league forums is that scouts in the Twins org are legitimately concerned they will be employed next year.  Lots of people are worried, and they should be.  When the owner uses the words "total system failure" that pretty much means total failure.  My real concern though is that I don't think scouting is where the org's problem is.  I think it's development.  That's why I wanted Gardy's replacement to be one with a good reputation working with the kids... I'm not happy with what I've seen from Molitor in that respect, and one point I have to think TR needs to step in. I admire that he is fairly hands off for the most part... that is usually a good quality in a manager, but there's a time to step in too, and TR has clearly shown that this isn't something he will do.

I was a HUGE Molitor fan growing up, his swing, playing style and everything about him made him a fun player to watch, my folks still have a framed photo of me as a rather youngster getting an autograph from him when he played for the Twins.

 

However when it comes to being a manager my overall issue with Molitor is the following:

Molitor was/is one of the top 1% of MLB players of all time, he had 3,000 hits, was a first ballot hall of famer, hit above .300 for his career, was solid in the field and stole over 500 bases in his career. Of course he worked hard for everything he earned, I'm not questioning that, but he certainly had a good amount of God/Rocketpig given talent to play at such an elite level for so long.

 

That is his biggest weakness as manager IMO, he doesn't understand personally what it is like for a player to be not elite, not be able to adjust on the fly, bot be a natural born hitter/fielder and not be able to run the bases like a speedster.

Essentially he is the anti-Gardy in those respects. I for one think Gardy was a very good manager during his time here, he certainly had his faults, such as falling in love with scrappy util players and not managing a bullpen the best, but you can't argue with the overall results. He seemed to get the absolute best out of players when they were here, and very few went on to suddenly have better careers (hitters at least) once they left the Twins.

 

Perhaps if Molitor would have taken a few years at AAA or somewhere else to learn the ropes as a manager this wouldn't be as big of an issue now. Hell, I actually think if he focused 100% of his energy on being a hitting coach for this org, things would improve quite a bit across the board.

 

Of course, Molitor seemed to have no interest in being a AAA manager or a hitting/bench coach way back when he was interviewed the first time (2001 I believe) That not a knock on him, as certainly it was his right/decision to not follow that path. But however 1.5 years into the gig, it's pretty clear he doesn't have any real business being the major league manager of a young/raw team like the Twins.

 

I'm not saying he can't be a good manager some day, or even now if it's in the right situation, but for this current team? He is the wrong fit, plain and simple. On a veteran team like the Yankees, Angels, Dodgers, Giants etc things may be different for him, but that isn't the case. It's clear that it's just not a fit anywhere around, the best thing to do would be to let him go, give him a few months to regroup and let him plan out his next step, whether it be going for another MLB job, another coaching job, or something else entirely. He certainly doesn't look like he is enjoying it at any level this year, even Gardy during his down years (until the very very end) seemed to still have some joy, smiles, jokes etc. I don't see it with Molly at this point.

[alarp33]

This is an Insider Article, but I thought this was a good thread to post it on.  

 

http://espn.go.com/mlb/insider/story/_/id/16619574/chicago-cubs-los-angeles-dodgers-top-mlb-future-power-rankings

 

"Future Power Rankings"

 

Based off of; Current Team (25%), Future Team (45%), Financial Support (20%), Front Office (10%)

 

Twins Ranked 16th overall; 

 

26th of 30 in Current Team

4th of 30 in Future

22 of 30 in Financial Support

 

and... DEAD LAST in Front Office. 

 

But outside of assembling prospects, the team has been a disaster. Whether it's been signing pointless free-agent contracts (Ricky Nolasco, Ervin Santana, Torii Hunter), getting over-excited about good months (hello Kurt Suzuki contract), or using their top prospects without any firm plan or patience (Miguel Sano, Byron Buxton), the Twins have done as much to stand in the way of their future as they can short of trading away the entire farm for magic beans.

[Mike Sixel]

Dang, that's not good. They've never ranked them that badly before on the FO. 

[Rosterman]

 

 "Something I've heard on the minor league forums is that scouts in the Twins org are legitimately concerned they will be employed next year.  Lots of people are worried, and they should be.  When the owner uses the words "total system failure" that pretty much means total failure.  My real concern though is that I don't think scouting is where the org's problem is.  I think it's development.  That's why I wanted Gardy's replacement to be one with a good reputation working with the kids... I'm not happy with what I've seen from Molitor in that respect, and one point I have to think TR needs to step in. I admire that he is fairly hands off for the most part... that is usually a good quality in a manager, but there's a time to step in too, and TR has clearly shown that this isn't something he will do."

 

I will never fault the scouts. I fault the people doing whatever they do with the stuff the scouts bring to the table. That is set by the organization: the type of player they want representing the Twins, the skill set they bring to the table, the work ethic, the ability to sign them for whatever amount the Twins feel worthy of giving to the signee.

 

We hear "best available player" thrown out a lot, but I don't see it. I also sometimes question the big picture outlook. Don't you hedge and sign multiple variables at each position (power, fielding, production). Same with pitchers (control, power, mix).

 

I would like to get a dozen CEO's together and ask them what would happen in their organization if they had a "total system failure". Would it start at the executive level, or would they just fire ALL the hourly employees and start over again at that level.

 

[old nurse]

You are making the assumption that the scouts are following the directive. The scout through player development cycle isn't something those outside the organization have the information to really judge what part of the system is broken. Maybe it is the organizational philosophy. But if they are not finding or developing the players, you don't know if it is that. There is the mantra of best player available.  The term best player available still has more a a definition than that. Pitcher with control or power. Both types can be dominating. The guess of the two would be part in the scout's assessment, part in how the development staff works. It is hard to say which part is the failure with the information available.

[glunn]

I am locking this thread, because it is taking too much moderator time. It's sad that some people are ruining this for the vast majority who are following the rules.

 

Please be advised that we are declaring a moderator crackdown and will be suspending repeat violators for extended periods.