Awesome brawl at Texas

[d-mac]

 

On a hockey board I'd be right with you, though the trend in hockey is a reduction in fighting and a variety of the goonish behavior.  And the sport is better for it.  

 

This issue here is that people are celebrating how "awesome" it is.  There is nothing awesome about this.  It's just dumb and unnecessary.

 

Agree 100%. This is not awesome. But in terms of importance, I don't think it's THAT important to get bent out of shape on, all things considered. 

[d-mac]

 

Well those fans are going to be left dissapointed more times than not, fights only occur in about 15% of games these days.

 

Well that's good. But hockey is still the only stick and ball sport that puts up with all out brawling on the field of play. And I think part of that has to do with use of these on ice penis-measuring-contests being intentionally leveraged for entertainment value. I couldn't care less about the sport, but if I was a hardcore hockey fan I'd think the fights would detract from the game itself and negatively affect the integrity of the game. 

 

Both of my parents' families are not from Minnesota originally, so hockey wasn't a sport we followed. Back in the early years of the Wild my dad got free tickets for the family through work. It was the only game we ever went to as a family. I was probably 10-11 years old. During the game a fight broke out and this older lady, probably 68, stood up on her seat yelling at the top of her lungs, "Kill him! F***ing break his head!" I had never seen anything like that in my life. I was slightly disturbed at the time that an adult would behave like that. 

 

So, yeah I hope hockey has changed. But I'm not holding my breath. It's unfortunate really, because I don't hate hockey, I want to enjoy it, I had season tickets one year to Badger Men's hockey when back I was going to school at Wisconsin. And I had a fun time going to those games. It's sort of different from the NHL game, much like the difference between college football and the NFL is. I have the same sort of disdain for the NFL and their fans too. The obnoxious bud-light drinking rubes that get their sports news from Sports Center and bleacher report. You all know the type.

[d-mac]

 

Oh, come now.  The Gant/Hrbek thing is always fun to bring up - and relevant since the crowd was pretty ok with it.

 

The tomahawk chop is an ugly thing that - like Chief Wahoo - should be scrapped.  If you want to talk about disrespectful fans, that's pretty much fair game.  Like I said, fans should be able to do most things - boo, cheer, yell - but the line should be drawn at actual physical interference (batteries, the Red Sox idiot who touched Shieffield, running ono the field) and racist chants (mostly a problem in European soccer but also a bit of a problem in your neck of the woods).  If you think that's personal, I'm honestly sorry.  

 

LOL. Soccer hooligans. Talk about nut-jobs. How often do riots and fights get started in Europe and in Latin America over soccer games? People get killed over there sometimes over it. 

[Thrylos]

 

While I don't disagree about the slide, I still don't agree about the punch. Or brawling in general. Or intentionally hitting people with a ball. Just. No. Yes, a dirty slide like that could've taken him out of the game all season, but so could an ill-timed, ill-placed punch or pitch. For what? To prove you're right and the other one is wrong? Not in my book.

 

Agreed.  No way a punch is accepted behavior anywhere (outside of a boxing and/or an MME match and those things are borderline acceptable.)

 

My point is that Mr Joey Bats provoked the guy by endangering him, so he also is on the wrong here.   Too many opinions about whitewashing his behavior last night.

[Squirrel]

 

Agreed.  No way a punch is accepted behavior anywhere (outside of a boxing and/or an MME match and those things are borderline acceptable.)

 

My point is that Mr Joey Bats provoked the guy by endangering him, so he also is on the wrong here.   Too many opinions about whitewashing his behavior last night.

Oh, I agree. It takes two to tango ... his actions were wrong, imo; and Oder's response was equally wrong. Both actions could have ended in serious harm.

[wavedog]

Before feeling too sorry for Odor for Bautista endangering him with his slide - you may want to read this article.   He had a couple of slides last year that were much worse and SF and LAA.   Plus he had an incident in the minors where he slid into 2nd and started a brawl.   One reason I think he deserves a longer suspension in this case.    

 

 

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/rougned-odor-aggressive-play-borders-dirty-article-1.2638425

[d-mac]

 

Fernando Rodney shoots an arrow after every save. There are a number that still celebrate on the mound.

 

Casey Fien would get pretty amped up and do fist pumps.

[formerly33]

 

A few thoughts:

 

#1) If Bautista wanted to send a message about the HBP like he claims, he should have charged the mound, not gone after a player who had nothing to do with it besides score an unusual run during the 2015 postseason.

 

#2) Bautista didn't charge the mound because he was afraid of Matt Bush, so he picked the only guy in the Rangers lineup who was smaller than himself to pick on.

 

#3) The only reason Odor will get a hefty suspension is because MLB only cares about the stars. Remember Jason LaRue? Cueto only got a seven game suspension for ending his career.

 

#4) I doubt that Bush intentionally threw at Bautista, as he wasn't part of last year's postseason.

 

#5) Bautista and Odor both have a history of being jerks, but people are unfairly calling it a sucker punch. Bautista was going to punch Odor first.

 

#6) What was missed is that Odor also took care of Donaldson, and that Pillar was not ejected.

A few thoughts:

 

#1) Bautista probably contemplated charging the mound but decided it would be too childish.

 

#2) However, the opportunity to take a cheap slide at whoever was covering second (who cares what size he is) was too much to pass up. Obviously he was still seething about having been hit (don't try to say there's anything wrong with being upset since clearly there's nothing wrong with the Rangers being a bunch of babies MONTHS after an incident they took offense at). Odor hauling off and punching him in the face was completely uncalled for. I'm not justifying Bautista's behavior - he should've left it at a warning stare towards Bush. But for some reason you and many others are trying to justify Odor's behavior. That's plain stupid.

 

#3) I feel like the argument here is that some players need longer suspensions, not the other way around.

 

#4) No, this is where management comes into play, and that's why Bautista didn't care the size and name of the player he slid into. It was a warning, nothing more. No, he shouldn't have done it. But then again, no, he wasn't trying to break Odor's leg. I'm pretty sure Odor had every intention of breaking Bautista's jaw, at the very least.

 

#5) Bautista was not going to punch Odor. If he wanted to punch him, he could have. His hand was open and he was going in for the usual ~manly~ shove.

 

#6) I can't really blame the umpires for not being everywhere at once and sprouting the eyes of a fly for this historical occasion.

 

 

/ okay, ninja'd ...

[KirbyDome89]

 

1 step forward, 3 steps back in the sport of baseball with this silliness. Bautista called it "cowardly" that the Rangers waited until his final at-bat of the series to do this retaliation, and I agree 100%. You can not convince me that throwing a baseball at a player for succeeding against you is a reasonable solution. 

For the most part I'm not a fan of baseball's reluctance to embrace change, but I will say I like the idea that players can still "police," the game to some extent. Yes, sometimes its childish and hard to watch but overall I don't mind seeing teams react to what they think is wrong. 

 

Also I have to point out that the Rangers aren't the only cowards in the whole ordeal. If Bautista was so upset about being hit then he should have charged the mound and gone after the pitcher who hit him. Sliding into 2B with the intent to injure a player not involved in the pitcher/hitter showdown is cowardly as well. IMO he deserved to get punched.

 

[ashbury]

but that one punch is far far beyond the stupid "unwritten rules" about bat flipping and retaliation and dirty slides that the fight had been operating under until that point.

You assume that Odor punched Bautista because of his bat flip last season.   

I'm pretty sure that's a tortured reading of what I wrote, especially since I specifically mentioned the dirty slide.

 

So the bad blood has history to it, and it flared up in that game. Other infielders experience similar, and a punch to the jaw isn't the remedy they choose.

[Vanimal46]

 

For the most part I'm not a fan of baseball's reluctance to embrace change, but I will say I like the idea that players can still "police," the game to some extent. Yes, sometimes its childish and hard to watch but overall I don't mind seeing teams react to what they think is wrong. 

 

Also I have to point out that the Rangers aren't the only cowards in the whole ordeal. If Bautista was so upset about being hit then he should have charged the mound and gone after the pitcher who hit him. Sliding into 2B with the intent to injure a player not involved in the pitcher/hitter showdown is cowardly as well. IMO he deserved to get punched.

Both parties were at fault, that's for sure. This all could have been avoided if the Rangers didn't hold a grudge from 6 months ago and just let it go... 

[Hrbowski]

 

1 and 2.) Give me a break, Bautista didn't charge the mound etc because he isn't a goon and knows his team needs him (if he charges the mound he gets tossed/suspended) He wasn't looking to fight anyone, he had a hard slide into 2nd base, but it wasn't dirty.  Also your premise about Bautista being afraid of Bush is hilarious, Joey Bats has 3 inches and 25 pounds on Bush.

 

3.) Again, give me a break, the reason why Odor is going to get a hefty suspension is because he started a fight and sucker punched a player.

 

4.) Once again, give me a break. If you think that is just coincidence I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.

 

5.) When has JoeyBats been a jerk? Other than the "bat toss" which is silly anyways he hasn't been a jerk. Odor is known as a dirty player and had one of the dirtiest slides baseball has seen since Ty Cobb last season. Odor started the fight, he pushed Bautista immediately and punched him. Bautista didn't start the fight, push him first or punch him first.

 

6.) So?

That was not a sucker punch, the slide was dirty, and he got tossed and will likely get suspended anyways.

 

Bautista has been a jerk to fans, frequently curses at umpires, and never ceases to show up the opponents. I'll take gentleman like Trout, Posey, Kershaw or Goldschmidt over punks like Bautista and Odor any day.

 

And BTW, I think Bush could KO Joey Bats, size doesn't always matter.

[TheLeviathan]

 

For the most part I'm not a fan of baseball's reluctance to embrace change, but I will say I like the idea that players can still "police," the game to some extent. 

 

Players have never "policed" things effectively.  All it ends up being is a bunch of retaliation until someone goes too far.  It's not dissimilar to how the law works in real life - if you leave things up to vigilantes and self-policing all you are asking for is an ever riskier set of escalating behaviors justified by the notion that if you just get that guy good enough it will teach everyone else not to do it.

 

And it just....doesn't....work.  Never has.  Never will.  

[Mike Sixel]

Violence is not the answer to most any question, ever. I won't even dignify the event by watching it on line.

[Mike Sixel]

 

For the most part I'm not a fan of baseball's reluctance to embrace change, but I will say I like the idea that players can still "police," the game to some extent. Yes, sometimes its childish and hard to watch but overall I don't mind seeing teams react to what they think is wrong. 

 

Also I have to point out that the Rangers aren't the only cowards in the whole ordeal. If Bautista was so upset about being hit then he should have charged the mound and gone after the pitcher who hit him. Sliding into 2B with the intent to injure a player not involved in the pitcher/hitter showdown is cowardly as well. IMO he deserved to get punched.

 

Policing it themselves led to a huge brawl, that's good?

[KirbyDome89]

 

Players have never "policed" things effectively.  All it ends up being is a bunch of retaliation until someone goes too far.  It's not dissimilar to how the law works in real life - if you leave things up to vigilantes and self-policing all you are asking for is an ever riskier set of escalating behaviors justified by the notion that if you just get that guy good enough it will teach everyone else not to do it.

 

And it just....doesn't....work.  Never has.  Never will.  

The same can be said for a commissioner or committee that hands out punishment. It isn't hard for either side to overstep their bounds ( see Goodell, Rodger). The system in place where players hold each other accountable may not be perfect but I prefer it to one where the league hands out suspensions with seemingly no rhyme or reason and can't be checked. 

[KirbyDome89]

 

Policing it themselves led to a huge brawl, that's good?

Pretty sure I never advocated "brawling." Its the byproduct of an imperfect system. However, I think the system as it stands today is better than what we see in other professional sports.

[Mike Sixel]

 

Pretty sure I never advocated "brawling." Its the byproduct of an imperfect system. However, I think the system as it stands today is better than what we see in other professional sports.

 

Fair, I misunderstood. 

[TheLeviathan]

 

The same can be said for a commissioner or committee that hands out punishment. It isn't hard for either side to overstep their bounds ( see Goodell, Rodger). The system in place where players hold each other accountable may not be perfect but I prefer it to one where the league hands out suspensions with seemingly no rhyme or reason and can't be checked. 

 

You're comparing apples to oranges.  Goddell over-stepping his bounds is a totally different issue.  You made the claim that players policing themselves helps the game.  What, exactly, has that ever helped with and how?

 

I'll give you just one example of how the game - using rules and fines - has impacted the game almost immediately:  the catcher collision rules have all but eliminated the worst of those plays (one happened this weekend and it was the first in a long time) and players are healthier and the game continues on.  There are dozens and dozens of examples across sports of how leagues have changed what happens on the field with rules.

 

Players running around hitting each other after the whistle?  Cross-checking the other team's star player?  Head hunting for bat flips?

 

Solved NOTHING.  Ever.  

[gunnarthor]

 

 

Solved NOTHING.  Ever.  

I love statements like this.   It basically destroys everything said before it.   Best HAUT take ever.

 

The main problem with your view, other than the hot take, is that you are trying to prove a negative and your only support is a dubious rule change.

 

We don't know when message slides or pitches end things - it could very well be that an intentional HBP makes both sides say, "it's over."  Your catcher collision example doesn't really work.  First, it was a pretty rare play but second, players still enforce how the game is played.  The collusion rule was just a rule.  Tough slides, as you know, are still very much part of the game and they are controlled by the players own acceptance of what is enough.  

 

I agree with kirby that a punishment system that is focused more on PR is not good for the game, which I think is where we are going.  The NFL got there far ahead of MLB, obviously.  

[jimmer]

 

You're comparing apples to oranges.  Goddell over-stepping his bounds is a totally different issue.  You made the claim that players policing themselves helps the game.  What, exactly, has that ever helped with and how?

 

I'll give you just one example of how the game - using rules and fines - has impacted the game almost immediately:  the catcher collision rules have all but eliminated the worst of those plays (one happened this weekend and it was the first in a long time) and players are healthier and the game continues on.  There are dozens and dozens of examples across sports of how leagues have changed what happens on the field with rules.

 

Players running around hitting each other after the whistle?  Cross-checking the other team's star player?  Head hunting for bat flips?

 

Solved NOTHING.  Ever.  

Couldn't agree more.  This childish nonsense needs to stop.

[jimmer]

 

Over-reacting a bit?

 

Remember this?  Not even sure that Ryan missed a start.

 

What I don't get is how Jesse Chavez who hit Fielder after all this still remained in the game.  That second brawl was on the umps.

I read this morning Chavez was tossed.

[jimmer]

People keep talking about the punch.  That was bad enough.  Odor threw the ball as hard as he could at Bautista's head/face.  If that connects, who knows what happens to Bautista.  In the wrong spot, it could kill him.

 

 

[jimmer]

 

This is true. Comparing the ethics of baseball to office behavior is ridiculous. Yes, there are behaviors that will get ballplayers suspended or fired either by internal or external controls (Internal: your team/the organization you work for--or external: Umpires, the MLB League Office, or even State or Federal law). There are internal and external controls in the office space too, but the two arenas are vastly different. When was the last time a bunch of fans cheered an office employee's performance review?

 

What Bautista did violated the ethics of Odor's workplace. He deserved everything he got. Some might call that vigilantism. Some might call it justice. It will be interesting to see if baseball's external control--the league office, rules on this one, and how they rule. Whatever message the league office sends will not likely be as loud as Odor's right cross.

 

As far as the fans in the stands, there's a reason to get excited, or even outraged, when something like this happens. If I was a father to a son at that game, I would explain what happened, and why the ethics of baseball were violated when Bautista slid past the bag into Odor's kitchen. That's a teachable moment.

You actually believe that Odor's throw had to do with the slide?  Yeah, no.  It was about the bat flip like 8 months ago. Oh, and Odor threw at his HEAD on that play! As far as the slide goes, the umpires did the right thing, called interference and both Bautista and the batter/runner were out.

[gunnarthor]

 

 

The same things you claim the players police themselves have been happening for decades.  Where is there an iota of evidence that they are effective at anything other than a cycle of retaliation?

Again, you're just asking to have a negative proven - it doesn't work that way. I can say that because of baseball's unwritten rules, baseball has the fewest violent acts of all major sports - even over basketball.  You can't prove that that isn't true.

 

If league mandated punishment would work we wouldn't need it.  Relying on the league changing how defenders position themselves on a play that rarely happened is a pretty weak claim to support your theory.  We still see players slide hard into second base, despite the rule change.  We still see pitchers throw at hitters, despite rules against it.  We still see players violate drug rules, criminal laws and team rules, despite rules against it. 

 

 

[gunnarthor]

 

 

People keep talking about the punch.  That was bad enough.  Odor threw the ball as hard as he could at Bautista's head/face.  If that connects, who knows what happens to Bautista.  In the wrong spot, it could kill him.

You know, I keep hearing that Odor threw something but I haven't seen anything in the video.  Was it a different incident you are referring to? 

 

If you're claiming he threw the baseball from second to first at Bautista, you're flat wrong.  Video from the third base side shows that although I admit it does look like it if you only see the first base video. 

 

[jimmer]

Tennis and golf have even less violence than baseball.  Probably because they aren't at all contact sports.

 

Baseball is not meant to be a contract sport.  It has it's moments of course, but it's not really a contact sport. 

 

Hockey players wear a ton of padding as do football players because they are sports that are inherently contact sports.  Basketball is bound to have contact due to drives to the hole, blocking, charging, picking etc.

 

[jimmer]

 

You know, I keep hearing that Odor threw something but I haven't seen anything in the video.  Was it a different incident you are referring to? 

 

If you're claiming he threw the baseball from second to first at Bautista, you're flat wrong.  Video from the third base side shows that although I admit it does look like it if you only see the first base video. 

I'm flat wrong.  Hmm.  Interesting.  Eric Byrnes saw it and commented on MLB Network that Odor did exactly that.  Baseball players all over saw it too and commented.  There's articles on it.  Yeah, I'll go ahead and stick with the opinion/fact he threw right at Bautista's head.

[gunnarthor]

 

I'm flat wrong.  Hmm.  Interesting.  Eric Byrnes saw it and commented on MLB Network that Odor did exactly that.  Baseball players all over saw it too and commented.  There's articles on it.  Yeah, I'll go ahead and stick with the opinion/fact he threw right at Bautista's head.

You could watch the video.

 

If you're implying that the route of his throw was low so that had Bautista not slid, he'd have been hit by the ball, sure.  But that's absolutely how MI are taught to throw the ball.  Nothing wrong with that, at all.

 

You're claim that he was throwing at Bautista's head made me think that he grabbed the ball and threw it at Buatista (sorta like Hunter at the Cleveland pitcher so many years ago).  Rather, what he did was threw it low to force the slide. 

[jimmer]

Yes, I could watch the video...again...for about the 20th time. As if I'd have on opinion on a play I haven't seen. Oh and I saw it when it first went down.  

 

I wonder how many times Byrnes saw it when he was, also, flat out wrong about Odor's intent. Or Eduardo Perez.  Or Torii Hunter.