Forbes: Berrios can save Twins season

[Seth Stohs]

Noted baseball experts from Forbes write that RHP Jose Berrios can save the Twins season. No pressure! Ha! 

 

But it's a solid article stating that Berrios can help turn things around.

[Vanimal46]

I don't think Berrios can save the season for the Twins... That's entirely dependent of this offense turning things around. I do think that Berrios can infuse excitement into the organization and keep casual fans interested in the team. I'm ready for him. Question is, are the Twins ready to move on from a veteran in order to make room for him?

[Mike Sixel]

They've shown they aren't calling him up to help. Last year, for a spot start? Nope. Last year to help an over worked bullpen? Nope. This year, to give them some upside? Nope. He's not going to teach the hitters how to hit, even if they ever do call him up.

[alarp33]

 

 Question is, are the Twins ready to move on from a veteran in order to make room for him?

 

40 man roster spot open, 16 inning game with Milone seemingly available on 3 days rest out of the pen, staring down a 5-14 record. Berrios being available to start Tuesday's game.

 

 I mean the stars aligned, and they wouldn't go to Milione. So I really have no faith we will see him in the next couple of weeks. 

[Thrylos]

Can Berrios hit?   

 

The Twins' rotation is the least of the Twins' problems.    They do need a closer though, since they blew more than twice as many saves (5) as they  nailed (2).

 

I suspect that the author does not follow the Twins.

 

Other than that, I agree, totally solid article.

[HitInAPinch]

 

Noted baseball experts from Forbes write that RHP Jose Berrios can save the Twins season. No pressure! Ha! 

 

But it's a solid article stating that Berrios can help turn things around.

Utter twaddle sez I. 

 

Ok, ok, they want me to turn off my Ad Blocker.  Not happening  

[kab21]

I guess they aren't really out of it since they only need a .566 winning pct to get to 86 wins but I see the addition of Berrios similar to starting Lavine at SG and Dieng at PF. It didn't save their season since they still went 29-53 but it put two pieces of next years team into starting roles. And it has created a lot of optimism for next year's team.  

[Mike Sixel]

 

I guess they aren't really out of it since they only need a .566 winning pct to get to 86 wins but I see the addition of Berrios similar to starting Lavine at SG and Dieng at PF. It didn't save their season since they still went 29-53 but it put two pieces of next years team into starting roles. And it has created a lot of optimism for next year's team.  

 

Except the Twins are clearly trying to win this year, just like last year. They didn't call up young guys last year to get acclimated for this year, and so far this year, they are going with old guys in the rotation and bullpen (and signed a 29 year old DH, and just cut their only catching depth for a 34 yo OF that can't field).

[ashbury]

I don't have much to say about the article itself, because it didn't really say anything new. But I remember an earlier article about the Twins under Forbes's banner, and it had a real guy-in-moms-basement feel to it. Maybe this is a business opportunity and Bonnes should reach out to Forbes asking if they'd like some professional-caliber team coverage!

[ThejacKmp]

 

I don't think Berrios can save the season for the Twins... That's entirely dependent of this offense turning things around. I do think that Berrios can infuse excitement into the organization and keep casual fans interested in the team. I'm ready for him. Question is, are the Twins ready to move on from a veteran in order to make room for him?

 

I gotta think that Milone is one horrendous start or two "not good" starts away from being sent to the pen/designated for assignment. Berrios has made it past the extra year of control deadline and Milone makes sense as a long reliever (instead of O'Rourke).

[Vanimal46]

 

I gotta think that Milone is one horrendous start or two "not good" starts away from being sent to the pen/designated for assignment. Berrios has made it past the extra year of control deadline and Milone makes sense as a long reliever (instead of O'Rourke).

Agree completely and hoping you are right. Milone makes a ton of sense as the long reliever/spot starter, and I want to see Berrios ASAP in the MLB rotation. 

[Craig Arko]

I think it's way more likely that Berrios will save *next* season.

[ThejacKmp]

 

Except the Twins are clearly trying to win this year, just like last year. They didn't call up young guys last year to get acclimated for this year, and so far this year, they are going with old guys in the rotation and bullpen (and signed a 29 year old DH, and just cut their only catching depth for a 34 yo OF that can't field).

 

I'm confused as to why everyone is so certain that it has to do with Murphy. It seems to me that if they were doing it for that reason, Murphy being added would happen in conjunction or they would have waited to make the Hicks move until they were ready to move Murphy up. Some other ideas:

 

(1) Maybe they just thought they had a nice window to sneak Hicks through and were mistaken. They were always going to have to do something like this at some point anyway and maybe they thought this was the sneaky good time. This involves an assumption that there are aspects of this process that involve gamesmanship. I wish someone would write a book on it, it would be fascinating.

 

(2) Berrios is always a possibility. With Santana and Duffey banged up, the Twins pen stretched and Milone not doing well, this could very well be the move. Milone to the pen, Berrios to the rotation.

 

(3) Trade? The Twins could have something heating up with Plouffe or Arcia or Nolasco that makes getting an extra 40 man roster spot advisable. It's a bit farfetched since you can't really see the Twins trading any of those guys and getting back two guys worthy of the 40 man roster but I'm just thinking outside the box. God I hope they traded Ricky - every start I wait for the wheels to fall off.

 

I will say I agree that Dean should have been the guy. I enjoy me some Pat Dean as much as the next guy (and likely more) but it's hard to see him being anything but a lottery ticket at this point. He's a poor man's Taylor Rogers.

[ThejacKmp]

 

Agree completely and hoping you are right. Milone makes a ton of sense as the long reliever/spot starter, and I want to see Berrios ASAP in the MLB rotation. 

 

It does make tonight's game a win-win. If Milone pitches well, the Twins have a good shot to win. If he doesn't, it might be better long-term.

[TheLeviathan]

Succeeding in the majors often requires a lot of adjustment and some struggles.  Let's start the adjustment process for some of these young arms.

 

This team isn't going anywhere this year, time to invest innings and at-bats into the future and not mediocrity.

[nicksaviking]

I hate to be a downer, but the young guys need to learn how to handle struggling before they will get consistent success. This is the price they needed to pay when they didn't play more of the young guys last September, and earlier. I understand the reasoning, this isn't revisionist history, it was just clear last year that they were sacrificing development for their chance at making the playoffs. However at some point they have to accept that developing these guys and contending are highly unlikely to occur at the same time. Rebuilding isn't supposed to be pain-free, this was the contract we entered into when they decided the best path to contention was to mostly rely on rebuilding the system.

 

Bite the bullet, purge the vets by any means necessary and make sure all the young guys are starting every day either at the MLB or AAA if they need a remedial adjustment. This team is still functioning in an old-school mentality if they actually think these vets are the key to winning a few extra games this year anyway, if they paid any kind of attention last year, they'd see that the vets got in the way and youngsters and their superior physical abilities were the better players anyway.

 

The worst thing that could happen for this club is a quasi-run where they may look like they could sniff .500, causing the team to double down on the vets despite no empirical evidence, just archaic conventional wisdom that experience matters. I do NOT want to do this again next year, rip the band-aid off now and get it over with.

[Mike Sixel]

 

I hate to be a downer, but the young guys need to learn how to handle struggling before they will get consistent success. This is the price they needed to pay when they didn't play more of the young guys last September, and earlier. I understand the reasoning, this isn't revisionist history, it was just clear last year that they were sacrificing development for their chance at making the playoffs. However at some point they have to accept that developing these guys and contending are highly unlikely to occur at the same time. Rebuilding isn't supposed to be pain-free, this was the contract we entered into when they decided the best path to contention was to mostly rely on rebuilding the system.

 

Bite the bullet, purge the vets by any means necessary and make sure all the young guys are starting every day either at the MLB or AAA if they need a remedial adjustment. This team is still functioning in an old-school mentality if they actually think these vets are the key to winning a few extra games this year anyway, if they paid any kind of attention last year, they'd see that the vets got in the way and youngsters and their superior physical abilities were the better players anyway.

 

The worst thing that could happen for this club is a quasi-run where they may look like they could sniff .500, causing the team to double down on the vets despite no empirical evidence, just archaic conventional wisdom that experience matters. I do NOT want to do this again next year, rip the band-aid off now and get it over with.

 

good luck getting your wish......

[Mike Sixel]

 

I'm confused as to why everyone is so certain that it has to do with Murphy. It seems to me that if they were doing it for that reason, Murphy being added would happen in conjunction or they would have waited to make the Hicks move until they were ready to move Murphy up. Some other ideas:

 

(1) Maybe they just thought they had a nice window to sneak Hicks through and were mistaken. They were always going to have to do something like this at some point anyway and maybe they thought this was the sneaky good time. This involves an assumption that there are aspects of this process that involve gamesmanship. I wish someone would write a book on it, it would be fascinating.

 

(2) Berrios is always a possibility. With Santana and Duffey banged up, the Twins pen stretched and Milone not doing well, this could very well be the move. Milone to the pen, Berrios to the rotation.

 

(3) Trade? The Twins could have something heating up with Plouffe or Arcia or Nolasco that makes getting an extra 40 man roster spot advisable. It's a bit farfetched since you can't really see the Twins trading any of those guys and getting back two guys worthy of the 40 man roster but I'm just thinking outside the box. God I hope they traded Ricky - every start I wait for the wheels to fall off.

 

I will say I agree that Dean should have been the guy. I enjoy me some Pat Dean as much as the next guy (and likely more) but it's hard to see him being anything but a lottery ticket at this point. He's a poor man's Taylor Rogers.

 

Well, I don't think you can trade a guy that is on the DL, so it isn't Plouffe. And, if they thought they could sneak him thru, they were wrong, again. That's on them, right?

[Otto von Ballpark]

By "save" do they mean as a closer?

[ThejacKmp]

 

Well, I don't think you can trade a guy that is on the DL, so it isn't Plouffe. And, if they thought they could sneak him thru, they were wrong, again. That's on them, right?

 

Agreed they were wrong if they were sneaking him through. Though if they always knew he was the guy who would come off the 40 and suspected he'd be taken maybe this was the best time and they got unlucky? That would be less on them. I think the bigger failure is not using Pat Dean as that guy. Hicks was a nice 3rd catcher.

 

You can trade a guy on the DL so Plouffe is tradable. I imagine it doesn't happen much though because teams would likely rather wait til a guy is healthy. The other issue with the Plouffe theory is I can't think of a team that suddenly has a glaring need at 3B. That's what it would take for a Plouffe deal this early.

[tobi0040]

 

Can Berrios hit?   

 

The Twins' rotation is the least of the Twins' problems.    They do need a closer though, since they blew more than twice as many saves (5) as they  nailed (2).

 

I suspect that the author does not follow the Twins.

 

Other than that, I agree, totally solid article.

 

Yeah, our team ERA is 3.80 right now. Actually an improvement from the 4.07 ERA the 83 win team had last year (although the 4.02 FIP suggests we will regress)

[gunnarthor]

As others said, pitching hasn't really been the problem.  I'm sure he and Meyer will be up fairly soon but the hitters are the problem.  

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

(1) Maybe they just thought they had a nice window to sneak Hicks through and were mistaken.

I think that is the general belief about the John Hicks maneuver.

 

The fact that it came just a few days before David Murphy's opt out date, and we have one outfielder struggling (Buxton) and another who needs AAA reps (Kepler), both with options, and our offense has been identified as our major weak point thus far, seems to be a bit stronger evidence that Murphy will take the spot, as opposed to Berrios.

 

Berrios does have a shot, though.  But there's really only one potential spot for him right now (Milone's),  and not only is Milone without options, he's making $4.5 mil which suggests a longer leash than 3-4 starts.  And they'd still have to make room for Milone in the pen -- not too hard, but demoting O'Rourke after his Sunday performance or DFA'ing Tonkin both seem like more difficult moves than simply optioning a young outfielder.

 

And if you figure they were preparing to move Milone to the pen after his 4th start today, they would have shown more willingness to use him in relief on Sunday -- Alex Meyer would have been available to start Monday in his place, and with the off day Thursday, Berrios could have taken the next turn if they so desired.

[Mike Sixel]

The pitching hasn't been bad, but it also hasn't been good. This was the largest fear of many of us.....the pitching would be solidly middle of the pack, so they'd not fix it and make it better, leaving high upside arms in the minors........it's much better if they are really bad or really good. Then, you can feel safer taking action (or not, which is also taking action).

[jokin]

 

As others said, pitching hasn't really been the problem.  I'm sure he and Meyer will be up fairly soon but the hitters are the problem.  

 

I think that is the general belief about the John Hicks maneuver.

 

The fact that it came just a few days before David Murphy's opt out date, and we have one outfielder struggling (Buxton) and another who needs AAA reps (Kepler), both with options, and our offense has been identified as our major weak point thus far, seems to be a bit stronger evidence that Murphy will take the spot, as opposed to Berrios.

 

Berrios does have a shot, though.  But there's really only one potential spot for him right now (Milone's),  and not only is Milone without options, he's making $4.5 mil which suggests a longer leash than 3-4 starts.  And they'd still have to make room for Milone in the pen -- not too hard, but demoting O'Rourke after his Sunday performance or DFA'ing Tonkin both seem like more difficult moves than simply optioning a young outfielder.

 

And if you figure they were preparing to move Milone to the pen after his 4th start today, they would have shown more willingness to use him in relief on Sunday -- Alex Meyer would have been available to start Monday in his place, and with the off day Thursday, Berrios could have taken the next turn if they so desired.

 

Everyone is jumping on the seemingly obvious choice of Milone, but hasn't Gibson already made himself (at least) temporarily expendable out of the rotation???:

 

Gibson

 

ERA/xFIP- 6.10/5.54

K/BB- 11/12

K*9/BB*9- 4.79/5.23

 

which makes Tommy Milone look "good" by comparison-

Milone

ERA/xFIP- 5.87/3.71

K/BB- 12/4

K*9/BB*9- 7.04/2.35

 

(Does Gibson have an option left? It seems it's either that or a trip to the DL if this continues...)

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

I gotta think that Milone is one horrendous start or two "not good" starts away from being sent to the pen/designated for assignment. Berrios has made it past the extra year of control deadline and Milone makes sense as a long reliever (instead of O'Rourke).

Even though O'Rourke threw 3 2/3 scoreless innings yesterday? If your assertion is that O'Rourke is better suited to a Loogy role, I do agree.

[gunnarthor]

 

Everyone is jumping on the seemingly obvious choice of Milone, but hasn't Gibson already made himself (at least) temporarily expendable out of the rotation???:

 

Gibson

 

ERA/xFIP- 6.10/5.54

K/BB- 11/12

K*9/BB*9- 4.79/5.23

 

 

which makes Tommy Milone looks "good" by comparison-

 

Milone

 

ERA/xFIP- 5.87/3.71

K/BB- 12/4

K*9/BB*9- 7.04/2.35

It won't happen.  Gibson started worse last year, IIRC.  Gibson is considered a big part of the teams future rotation so they'll give him a half year before they consider yanking him from the rotation.  

 

 

[jokin]

 

Even though O'Rourke threw 3 2/3 scoreless innings yesterday? If your assertion is that O'Rourke is better suited to a Loogy role, I do agree.

 

But apparently not against left-handed hitting pitchers???

[Vanimal46]

 

Everyone is jumping on the seemingly obvious choice of Milone, but hasn't Gibson already made himself (at least) temporarily expendable out of the rotation???:

 

Gibson

 

ERA/xFIP- 6.10/5.54

K/BB- 11/12

K*9/BB*9- 4.79/5.23

 

which makes Tommy Milone look "good" by comparison-

Milone

ERA/xFIP- 5.87/3.71

K/BB- 12/4

K*9/BB*9- 7.04/2.35

 

(Does Gibson have an option left? It seems it's either that or a trip to the DL if this continues...)

I believe he has an option left. As gunnarthor just mentioned he's gotten off to bad starts before and they gave him a long leash to figure it out. Plus, wouldn't he throw a fit if he were to get demoted? Considering he's due for arbitration this upcoming off-season. 

[jokin]

 

 

It won't happen.  Gibson started worse last year, IIRC.  Gibson is considered a big part of the teams future rotation so they'll give him a half year before they consider yanking him from the rotation.  

 

So you're saying they'll give Gibson up to 10-15 more starts if his production stays at the current level...? Something is very wrong with him at the moment.