Big Papi on the "Sano Experiment"

[jimmer]

 

Apparently Trout shouldn't play the outfield....

Why?  Because he's 2 inches shorter and 40 or so pounds lighter than Sano along with always being an OF in his pro career as opposed to Sano never being an OF in his pro career?'

 

Comparing Trout's situation to Sano's situation is like comparing food to skyscrapers. 

[Champuckett]

Professional athletes typically are egocentric, self-involved, and don't have the slightest idea about what they are talking about, but get asked questions constantly by the media.  With that said, Ortiz makes a point that at least to me, is common sense and does not take much thought or debate in one's head.

 

Why put your big, potential all-star, future of the franchise, best slugger we have had in decades, suddenly in a different position?  Why risk this?  There are other players that would have made better sense playing in that spot.  Putting the biggest guy on the team, in a run heavy position, comparatively with infield slots, seems to be stretching things into surreal territory.

 

It's nice to see he is up for the challenge and has not complained since being moved there.  If a man does not complain, however, it does not magically justify the move.  We have had 2 other large scale moves in recent times and both have had abysmal results: Mauer to 1B and Santana to SS.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

The injury angle sounds odd to me too, but if actual baseball people like Molitor and Ortiz are raising it as a concern, it shouldn't be completely discounted. Hanley Ramirez got two minor injuries from playing outfield last year. You throw your body to the ground differently on the outfield. Sano knows how to lunge for a ball from the third base position but he has no clue what he's doing in the outfield, because he's never done it before. No muscle memory.

[Willihammer]

Fatigue impacts form, and form impacts health. If he gets tired out there, he's going to miss time. He's going to need rest or spend time on the DL next year. Ortiz has explained why, Sano is just too damn big.

[jimmer]

 

 We have had 2 other large scale moves in recent times and both have had abysmal results: Mauer to 1B and Santana to SS.

Mauer hasn't been anywhere near horrible defensively at 1B and Santana was developed as a shortstop. That's not a change in position.  

[sane16]

 

Last season he pulled his hammy just running the bases though, when he was DH-ing.

Sammy Sosa and Kevin Pillar injured themselves by sneezing.

Kevin Love injured himself doing knuckle push-ups

Other injuries have occurred from cutting a hand while separating frozen hamburgers, chipping a tooth on a frozen donut or running away from dream spiders.

 

So what was your point?

[sane16]

 

Fatigue impacts form, and form impacts health. If he gets tired out there, he's going to miss time. He's going to need rest or spend time on the DL next year. Ortiz has explained why, Sano is just too damn big.

Have you ever played outfield?

Sano is more likely to dislocate his jaw yawning in the outfield, than to get tired in the outfield.

[Squirrel]

 

Last season he pulled his hammy just running the bases though, when he was DH-ing.

Then if injury is a concern, it'll be something else when he's diving for balls at 3rd. All players at one time or another seem to have some kind of a muscle thing ... I don't think that is necessarily positional more than it is being prepped and stretched. And even then, it's a thing for everyone.

[jimmer]

 

Have you ever played outfield?

Sano is more likely to dislocate his jaw yawning in the outfield, than to get tired in the outfield.

So is your contention is MLB OFs don't get tired and worn down over the course of a 162 games season played over about 180 days?  Cause it's not whether or not he's tired after one game.

 

And your argument is comparing how some fans played OF at whatever level and for however many games they play in their seasons to how MLB OF are expected to play for as many as the play? 

 

Even OFs who know what they are doing and have played OF their whole lives would get worn out and tired playing OF at  the major league level over the course of 162 games in 180 or days while also traveling a bunch and having workouts in between games. Comparing that to fans that played at the level most of us have is, just, well, not a good comparison in the least.

[sane16]

 

So your contention is MLB OFs don't get tired and worn down over the course of a 162 games season played over about 180 days? And your argument is comparing how some fans played OF at whatever level to how MLB OF are expected to play.?

Not comparing them.

Just suggesting that the MLB outfield experience has been done by many non-athletes.

My argument would be that MLB third basemen also get tired and worn down over the course of a 162 games season played over about 180 days?

[jimmer]

 

Not comparing them.

Just suggesting that the MLB outfield experience has been done by many non-athletes.

My argument would be that MLB third basemen also get tired and worn down over the course of a 162 games season played over about 180 days?

Except that wasn't your argument.  You didn't even mention 3B or 162 game season.  

 

You said, 'Have you ever played outfield?Sano is more likely to dislocate his jaw yawning in the outfield, than to get tired in the outfield.'

 

Right there, no mention of 3B, no mention of 162 games season, and you asked a poster if he ever played OF. implying if he had, he'd know Sano was more likely to dislocate his jaw yawning than by getting tired in the outfield. So yeah, you were comparing the efforts/experience of common fans to what OFs/Sano will have to deal with.

[sane16]

 

Except that wasn't your argument.  You didn't even mention 3B or 162 game season.  

 

You said, 'Have you ever played outfield?Sano is more likely to dislocate his jaw yawning in the outfield, than to get tired in the outfield.'

 

Right there, no mention of 3B, no mention of 162 games season, and you asked a poster if he ever played OF. implying if he had, he'd know Sano was more likely to dislocate his jaw yawning than by getting tired in the outfield. So yeah, you were comparing the efforts/experience of common fans to what OFs/Sano will have to deal with.

So, you detected no sarcasm in the statement "Sano is more likely to dislocate his jaw yawning in the outfield, than to get tired in the outfield.'..because I really thought that someone had actually dislocated his jaw yawning in the outfield?

You MAY be taking yourself a little too seriously, if you thought that was an actual argument.

Sano either plays 3B or OF and the argument was that OF will tire him out. Compared to WHAT, if 3B is not implied?

[sane16]

I've got a coaching job at 11AM PST, so I have to concede all arguments to "overall pain in the behind".

Have a great day, Chief!

[Rezzy]

I'm in the group that wants to wait and see. Maybe it's my science background or something but, I want PROOF that it won't work. Maybe something like... "it's not working, really, see it's not" - from someone who matters.

 

I like the fact that this team is trying to find a way to put lots of runs on the board. They are going about this is by putting Sano, Buxton, Rosario, Plouffe, Escobar, Dozier, Park, Mauer, and probably Murphy in the same lineup. That's a scary lineup. A lineup that is going to punish a pitcher's mistakes.

 

Pitcher Mistakes > Sano OF Mistakes

 

And the only way you can write in that lineup is by moving someone to a new position. Sano seems to be cool with the move to OF, and many have said that he moves well for a big man.

 

Let him try. If it doesn't work I am confident that a change will be made.

 

 

 

 

[Champuckett]

 

Mauer hasn't been anywhere near horrible defensively at 1B and Santana was developed as a shortstop. That's not a change in position.  

 

Others may be concerned about defense regarding this article and Sano in general.  That's not the focus of my concern.  He may be just fine defensively for all we know due to his incredible athleticism.

 

The focus is what playing an outfield position is going to do to a big man like Sano.  I'm concerned about losing the potential offensive productivity due to injury and fatigue and the over-managing, over-manipulation of the players, in spite of these players already doing well at certain positions.

 

Mauer was moved with the idea that playing catcher was too hard on his body, but he has had by far his worst seasons offensively since moving to 1B full time.  They gambled on this one and they were wrong.

 

Santana is a completely different case, and you are correct that his natural position was SS, but he was plugged into CF due to waiting for Buxton and Hicks being unreliable at the position.  Santana flourished once he emerged from the minor leagues, but went into the crapper offensively as soon as he was moved back to his "natural" position.  They could have left him in the outfield, where he was doing amazing, but they didn't, and now he is struggling to get a spot on the team.

 

There is no way to know for sure what would have happened with Mauer if he had stayed at catcher or if Santana had stayed in the outfield.  All we have to go on is what has happened, and in both cases, it has been bad news.

[Rezzy]

I hear what you are saying. A.) Changing positions = players playing poorly and, B.) Outfield is hard on the body = Players playing poorly.  

 

I just don't buy it.

 

For one, these guys are professional ballplayers. Mauer moving out from behind the plate is not the reason he isn't hitting anymore. A lot of things changed with Mauer, not just position. And the reason that Santana isn't hitting is more likely because he wasn't all that great in the first place. 

 

And your wear and tear argument... I just don't think that playing OF is that tough. Yes, diving for a ball can get you injured but, it can happen to anyone at any position who dives for a ball. And 162 games at 3B is roughly equal to 162 in the OF. 162 games is a reality for all MLB ballplayers except DHs, those friggin' pansies.

 

Just remember, "correlation doesn't always equal causation".  

[Jham]

May in the pen, Sano in the outfield...  I'm ok with both of these things because I doubt either decision is permanent.  I see these moves as decisions made because they will improve the team overall.  By the time the wear and tear of RF takes it's toll on Sano, he'll probably have already made 10 All Star games as a first baseman and the fact that he began his career in the outfield will be the answer to a trivia question.  I believe the Twins will be better with Plouffe and Sano in the lineup, given the alternatives, and I'm certainly willing to give it half a season to see.  If it works, this season could be a lot of fun, if not, if Sano pulls a hammy, or whatever, then we can deal Plouffe or whatever, but why do that now?  Why not wait till we have to?  Oh, and David Ortiz thought Vargas was the next him.  Of course, I picked Michigan State to win the NCAA tournament so probably disregard everything both of us say.

[Blake]

 

The only way this is a problem is if the Twins refuse to adjust in case of extreme struggles. 

 

If you are sitting in St. Cloud and you need to go to Minneapolis and you turn west on I-94. That is a correctable mistake. You simply turn around and arrive at your destination. If you make it all the way to Fargo... Other folks in the car will be pissed at you but again... you can always turn around... get some more gas and make it to Minneapolis before nightfall. 

 

If you keep going all the way to the Pacific Ocean and drive your car into the Ocean. 

 

Now you've made a mistake that you can't recover from. 

Thread ideas!

Stolen!!

 

probably should keep that to myself....

[Dantes929]

Ok, Sano pulled a hammy running the bases so it is reasonable he will get hurt playing the outfield.   My counter to that would be that if he was active during the game rather than just going up to the plate 4 times a game and sprinting after doing nothing for 45 minutes he is LESS  likely to get this kind of injury playing the outfield. 

Sano is too big to play the outfield just like Mauer as too tall to catch and certainly too tall to win Gold Gloves.     Sano is too big to play outfield like Pedroia and Dozier are too small to be power hitters.   My point is that prejudging based on size is just as bad as judging based on race or sex or age.    Maybe some generalizations can be made and in this case I would say most guys Sano's size cannot handle the outfield but most guys his size are not fast or athletic.    For example I would say Ortiz in the outfield would MOST LIKELY be a mistake.    I will only allow that Sano in the outfield MIGHT be a mistake.      

Infielder to outfielder has succeeded in the past.    I personally thought Santana was pretty good out there and so was Cuddyer while Escobar and Nunez not so much.     You may quibble that Santana and Cuddyer were not all that good either but the bar just gets set lower when you hit enough to make up for it and in Sano's case it also allows for Park, Mauer and Plouffe to be in the lineup at the same time.  

    Big men have not played the outfield therefore Sano cannot is as wrong as if he succeeds and the conclusion is Sano played the outfield so big men should play the outfield.    I think my logic teacher would call it the fallacy of post hoc ergo propter hoc.

[gunnarthor]

 

 

Sano is too big to play the outfield just like Mauer as too tall to catch and certainly too tall to win Gold Gloves.    

Good point, I had forgotten that one.  As others have said, there are some pretty big dudes playing in the OF already.  Mike Trout is close to 250, despite what the back of his baseball card says, and plays a pretty decent CF.  Josh Hamilton was actually probably pretty close to 250 as a center fielder as well.

 

And back in the day, Ripkin was too big to be a short stop.  Positions evolve.  Sano is young, he's surprisingly fast and he's a heck of an athlete.  He might suck at the OF but I'm not worried about it wearing him down, at least not anymore than playing third base would.  Him crashing into Buxton or a wall scares me ... 

[jimmer]

Trout is 225 and has played OF his whole career, as had Hamilton as had pretty much every big man example that can be thrown out there. Sano has never played OF in his pro career and dwarfs Trout in every way. They aren't close to comparable.

[Rezzy]

So, how tall is too tall? And how big is too big? Do we need a "Must be smaller than ??? to ride" sign on the way out to the OF? Hell, we can even put a picture on Miguel Sano on the sign if you want.

 

It's just preposterous to me that people are convinced that Sano can't play out there without any proof that he can't.

 

 

[Monkeypaws]

 

Chances are equivalent to tackles and tackle attempts and I suspect he does not have more than a dozen a game of those...   Plays are equivalent to opponent PAs.

 

Biggest consideration:  Football players have 6 days to recover.  Baseball players do not.   Also, unlike football players who only play the field, baseball players have to bat as well...

Cannot compare baseball to football in any way.  Different sports.

There are days off, DH duties and such that can let a player recoup. Twins bench will be good this season.

 

Plus, swinging a bat a dozen times a day ain't exactly debilitating to a strongman in his early 20s.

 

Rotate the squad, and he''ll be just fine for now.

[gunnarthor]

 

Trout is 225 and has played OF his whole career, as had Hamilton as had pretty much every big man example that can be thrown out there. Sano has never played OF in his pro career and dwarfs Trout in every way. They aren't close to comparable.

There is no way Trout is 225, he's far bigger than that.  And Hamilton might even had been bigger.  AND Hamilton was away from the game for four years and older than Sano when he returned so I'm not sure how much that has to do with it.

Sure, guys who have played in the OF before have had the reps and might be better as OFers but there's no reason to think that is what will cause Sano to break down while others didn't - as I understood this thread, it was concern that Sano would break down playing in the OF (as opposed to playing third).  If you want to argue that he just won't be good b/c he's too big/too inexperienced/too old to learn new tricks, fine.  But I don't believe that that was this thread. 

[spinowner]

I think it's unlikely Sano will spend more than two seasons in the outfield. I think there is a negligible chance that a season or two in the outfield will negatively affect his career. I think the Twins are doing this only because they feel it's the best way to optimize their current roster. I think this is an excellent example of how everything gets way overanalyzed on fan web sites. I think don't worry, be happy.

[TheLeviathan]

If their idea of optimizing their roster is to move their large,incredibly talented slugger (and enormously valuable asset) to a position he's never played as a temporarily measure to balance things......

 

I'm not sure how the hell anyone can get behind that thinking.  That's my nightmare of why this is happening. I want to believe the Twins think he can actually play RF for a number of years.  At least then I can understand it and if they're wrong - those things happen.  But any justification other than that is probably stupid.  Especially roster optimization.

[Squirrel]

 

If their idea of optimizing their roster is to move their large,incredibly talented slugger (and enormously valuable asset) to a position he's never played as a temporarily measure to balance things......

 

I'm not sure how the hell anyone can get behind that thinking.  That's my nightmare of why this is happening. I want to believe the Twins think he can actually play RF for a number of years.  At least then I can understand it and if they're wrong - those things happen.  But any justification other than that is probably stupid.  Especially roster optimization.

Please be mindful when throwing out words such as 'stupid.' Just because you think it is doesn't mean it is, and it's close to calling other posters as such. Others here have given, imo, reasonable arguments pro and con. But let's get real here ... while some of us may think we know better, we don't and won't until it plays out and see how it goes. Right now we're truly guessing ... maybe in an educated fashion ... but nonetheless guessing how this is for Sano in the short and the long term.

[DJSim22]

 

This idea of trying to fit everyone in a certain box seems shortsighted. If merely size is the indicator to whether a player can play a certain position, then Mauer should never had played catcher because he's too tall or Berrios will never be a good top of the line pitcher because he's too short. Point is let's see if Sano is atheletic enough to play the position. It may not work, but let see first.

 

The easiest thing in the world to be is a skeptic. 

[USAFChief]

The easiest thing in the world to be is a skeptic.

 

Source?

[DJSim22]

 

Sammy Sosa and Kevin Pillar injured themselves by sneezing.

Kevin Love injured himself doing knuckle push-ups

Other injuries have occurred from cutting a hand while separating frozen hamburgers, chipping a tooth on a frozen donut or running away from dream spiders.

 

So what was your point?

 

Don't forget other crazy ones:  carrying luggage, feather from a pillow in the eye.