The Front Office and Settling For Mediocrity

[Brock Beauchamp]

Why are we defaulting back to Robinson?

 

The dude isn't even in the organization because the Twins RELEASED him.

 

To me, this indicates the Twins are betting on Buxton or Kepler to step forward.

 

Given how that worked out with Hicks, that's not a plan that gives me comfort but come on, Shane Robinson isn't even in the organization right now. Let's can the hyperbole a bit.

 

(yes, I'm aware the Twins want to get Robinson back on a MiLB deal but if they wanted him on the 40 man, they would have kept him)

[DaveW]

 

Given the defensive differences between the two, that means Murphy is hugely more valuable.

That's akin to implying Arcia is a better player than Buxton if he OPSes .025 higher.

Murphy had a 28% CS rate and was the 4th worst defensive catcher overall per fangraphs. They are both liabilities behind the plate, as a bonus, AJ wouldn't have cost us giving up a 20/20 gold glove CF type!

[mnfireman]

The Twins front office (and Terry Ryan in particular) take a lot of heat for not signing "big-name" free agents. What these posters need to realize is that it takes 3 to tango in baseball: the team, the agent, and the player. Several times over the last couple of off-seasons the Twins have offered or matched the best offer a player received and the player chose to sign elsewhere.

 

As far as trades go, who would the team have to give up to complete these deals? Colorado has a stud at 3B and good OF's, they would have wanted a SP. So would these posters be happy to have given up 2 of Berrios, May, and Gibson plus other prospects? No! But they would have been all over this board if/when Tulo got hurt and/or starts to decline. I can already see the posts about the $43 million per year that would have been guaranteed Tulo and Mauer if they are both hurt and/or not producing. 

 

Being a GM in major league baseball takes more than any of us posters will realize. We overvalue our players and undervalue other teams players, think every free agent wants to come here for less than market value, and, worst of all, think we know more than these gentlemen who have been doing these jobs their entire adult life.

 

Ryan's best asset is minor league talent recognition, maybe it is time to hire another GM (insert Anthopoulos pipe dream sequence) and let Ryan return to scouting. But that's not our call and we have to trust that he is doing his best to improve the team, not only for 2016, but going forward.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Murphy had a 28% CS rate and was the 4th worst defensive catcher overall per fangraphs. They are both liabilities behind the plate, as a bonus, AJ wouldn't have cost us giving up a 20/20 gold glove CF type!

The league CS% during that time was 30% per BB Ref.

 

And AJ's CS% was 24%.

[T.C.]

Honest question. Why is it such a common belief that Hicks has "turned the corner"?

 

By looking at his batting average monthly splits on FG no corner seems to have been turned, other than a very strong July.

May- .259 June- .229 July- .346 Aug- .213 Sep/Oct- .226

 

1st Half- .266      2nd Half- .250

 

I am not trying to hate on Hicks. He could very well become an All-Star, but the Twins have about 5 other guys with that potential if not greater and we had no readily available catching talent.

[Vanimal46]

 

Honest question. Why is it such a common belief that Hicks has "turned the corner"?

 

By looking at his batting average monthly splits on FG no corner seems to have been turned, other than a very strong July.

May- .259 June- .229 July- .346 Aug- .213 Sep/Oct- .226

 

1st Half- .266      2nd Half- .250

 

I am not trying to hate on Hicks. He could very well become an All-Star, but the Twins have about 5 other guys with that potential if not greater and we had no readily available catching talent.

 

Don't you be bringing in logic, common sense, and facts into a thread full of blistering hot sports takes

[twinsnorth49]

 

But no if ands or buts... JR Murphy is da man

No buts but you started this sentence with a but............disqualified.

 

I'm not saying Murphy is the man, in fact all I've said about him is he's a catcher and he's 24, but I don't think Hicks is the man either. All I'm really hearing is if, if, if.......ya ya, if he ever becomes a legitimate full time CF or if he ever becomes a  useful platoon corner OF, or if he ever becomes a 3 time all star, the Twins will have lost the trade badly...............colour me skeptical, that's all.

 

All I really see is the Twins traded a guy from a position they think they can improve upon for help at a position that is more difficult to do that with.

[sane]

So the Twins get the guy the Yankees HAD to dump? Not sure how that's something to brag about in the press guide.

The Yankees traded Murphy because they had great depth at catcher. That doesn't mean he was "dumped" any more than Hicks was "dumped".

[Intramural Legend]

 

Honest question. Why is it such a common belief that Hicks has "turned the corner"?

 

By looking at his batting average monthly splits on FG no corner seems to have been turned, other than a very strong July.

May- .259 June- .229 July- .346 Aug- .213 Sep/Oct- .226

 

1st Half- .266      2nd Half- .250

 

I am not trying to hate on Hicks. He could very well become an All-Star, but the Twins have about 5 other guys with that potential if not greater and we had no readily available catching talent.

 

I'm still trying to figure out when he turned into a Gold Glove defender. I certainly don't remember watching that guy

[sane]

Why is it such a common belief that Hicks has "turned the corner"?

]

It is possible "that Hicks has turned the corner" TWICE! (or 360 degrees)

[Eris]

 

 

 

1) The "Twins Way" player is a real thing with Ryan. That's why I'm thinking there's no way Plouffe is traded.

 

 

The "Twins Way" should be important.  This is about team culture.  You want players who work hard, play smart, throw to the right bases, help and support each other, etc.  Look no further than the Nationals as to what happens when the team culture, driven by a few difficult personalities, falls apart.  A couple of months back there is an article / interview where Hicks is crediting Hunter for his success by helping him prepare for his at bats, especially with two strikes.  What struck me about the interview is that apparently this was not happening prior to Hunter rejoining the Twins.  How could Hicks go through years within the Twins system and not have other players / coaches repeatedly coach / help teammates become better players.  This was one of the failures of the Twins organization after Tom Kelley left.--too many prospects would reach the majors and not know how to play fundamentally sound baseball.   (In Hick's case it may also represent him being difficult to coach and not receptive to advice).

[DaveW]

The league CS% during that time was 30% per BB Ref.

 

And AJ's CS% was 24%.

So they are basically a wash defensively, Murphy is slightly better at throwing guys out, but is poor in the other aspects as per the stats

[BrianTrottier]

Generally speaking on GM's "going big," let's ask A.J. Preller how that worked for the Padres this year.

[DaveW]

Generally speaking on GM's "going big," let's ask A.J. Preller how that worked for the Padres this year.

how did it work out for the Mets, Royals and Blue Jays?

[nicksaviking]

 

I wish that would be the case, but Robinson somehow started around 50 games in 2015 (the Twins love to reward the gritty FA vets with bonus playing time)- Shane had never started more than 30 games in any one season before this year. If Rosario starts out the season in CF, flanked by Sano and Arcia, it will probably be less than 10 games before Robinson or whichever RH journeyman vet they sign is moved into CF- shortly after the pitching staff threatens revolt.

 

Which is a good reason why it probably won't be Robinson.

[jokin]

 

The Yankees traded Murphy because they had great depth at catcher. That doesn't mean he was "dumped" any more than Hicks was "dumped".

 

It still means that the Twins got the guy the Yankees felt was the most expendable, and evidently,, the 4th best catcher in their system. Only room for 3, the Yanks in effect, dumped the one they least valued, just as Ryan dumped the OF they least valued going forward. 

 

The projected WAR values for each player in 2016 just don't come close to matching up, at all... This trade does not make sense for a team that we assume is in win-now mode.

 

 

[BrianTrottier]

 

how did it work out for the Mets, Royals and Blue Jays?

One of them won the world series, and two of them did not.

[gagu]

 

So the Twins get the guy the Yankees HAD to dump? Not sure how that's something to brag about in the press guide.

So many assumptions and/or exaggerations. I guess the deal now is that the Yanks "dumped" Murphy, while the Twins sacrificed Hicks!?!? Two teams trade players at positions with depth for players at positions of need. Not particularly surprising, an extended thread I read last night on another site included a majority of Yankee fans, who stated a definate opinion, ripping the trade and damning Cashman. Some things are universal. 

[jokin]

 

how did it work out for the Mets, Royals and Blue Jays?

 

Generally speaking on GM's "going big," let's ask A.J. Preller how that worked for the Padres this year.

 

Better to have tried and failed than to have turned off the cellphone when any call came in about a prospect. And to turn this thing back the other way, Preller didn't panic and hold a fire sale when things didn't work out as planned.

[jokin]

 

So many assumptions and/or exaggerations. I guess the deal now is that the Yanks "dumped" Murphy, while the Twins sacrificed Hicks!?!? Two teams trade players at positions with depth for players at positions of need. Not particularly surprising, an extended thread I read last night on another site included a majority of Yankee fans, who stated a definate opinion, ripping the trade and damning Cashman. Some things are universal. 

 

I'm one of Hicks' biggest critics- I've exaggerated nothing and assumed nothing in making my case- obviously, everything in this transaction is on the come for two players who have yet to define their careers. But if the Twins were seriously looking to upgrade the team, they failed on this one miserably. The OF defense now has a gaping hole, while the catcher position was only marginally upgraded.  In this case, the priority at improving at catcher was to go big or go home.

 

And to repeat, the recent track record for Cashman vs. Ryan on these types of deals speaks for itself.

[jokin]

 

One of them won the world series, and two of them did not.

 

And all three were the most talked-about teams in baseball, each integrally in the conversation, and in point of fact, on how you do it right to put your team in the position to win it all.  The Twins... not so much.

[nicksaviking]

 

The projected WAR values for each player in 2016 just don't come close to matching up, at all... This trade does not make sense for a team that we assume is in win-now mode.

 

I really hope the Twins aren't in win-now mode.  Their best players are in their early to mid-20s, their window should be more than half a decade, and I'm not even sure if it's open yet.

[jokin]

 

Which is a good reason why it probably won't be Robinson.

 

I would hope not, but the current alternatives are not much better. I would have preferred that Hicks go in as the starting CF for the Twins, with the opportunity to build off of his limited success in 2015 and raising his value even further.

 

And this is assuming that Ryan settled for fair value on this trade, and didn't try harder to get a better deal elsewhere, or giving up a little bit more with the Yankees to get Samuel.

 

Meanwhile, do you have a guess on who the Twins acquire for that veteran OF spot, and what type of deal in dollars and years?

[jokin]

 

I really hope the Twins aren't in win-now mode.  Their best players are in their early to mid-20s, their window should be more than half a decade, and I'm not even sure if it's open yet.

 

Well, there's the crux of the issue and the difference of opinion, a minor internal move here or there- or acquiring a RP closer to July 1 instead of August 1, and the Twins would have been in the postseason.

 

So you're comfortable settling for putting things off at actually trying to win for 1 or 2 or 3 more years because the core guys are just turning 25 or 26?  I thoroughly disagree with this approach.

[sane]

Meanwhile, do you have a guess on who the Twins acquire for that veteran OF spot, and what type of deal in dollars and years?

Aaron Hicks at the waiver price (after the Yankees release him?)

[DaveW]

One of them won the world series, and two of them did not.

2 made the World Series. I'd say that's a pretty good result!

When was the last time Ryan and the conservative approach made the World Series again?

[jokin]

 

Aaron Hicks at the waiver price (after the Yankees release him?)

 

FIFY

[TheLeviathan]

Trading Aaron Hicks seems like a weird place to start this particular rant.

[sane]

Conservative approach has won it for the SF Giants three times.

Who have they picked up at the trade deadline?

[dxpavelka]

 

Another off-season has come with the Twins having significant holes in the lineup and pitching staff, and another off-season has started out with Terry Ryan filling a said hole with a mediocre player instead of bringing in an impact player.

 

Make no mistake about it, John Ryan Murphy is NOT a good catcher, he rates out as average at best defensively, and offensively he never did anything in the minors to write home about. Can he someday potentially become league average? I suppose so, but league average is not something to strive for, especially not when you are giving up an asset in Aaron Hicks who has just turned the corner and looks to be a potential steal for the Yankees. Guys who have gold glove defense in CF, can hit 20+ HR and steal 20+ bases don't grow on trees. Of course Hicks wasn't always the model "Twins way" type player, so he was easy to part with by Ryan and company, just like a certain other "non Twins way" player TR let walk for nothing in his first stint, I believe that players name was David Arias and all he did was go on to win multiple world series, MVPs and hit 500+ HR after he left. Sweet.

 

It's not just 2015 where Ryan has settled for mediocrity as well: Going back the last two off-seasons Ryan has spent well over a 100 million locking up middle of the rotation veterans such as Nolasco, Santana and Hughes, ignoring that the team has needed a front end of the rotation type ever since Santana was shipped out of town. In 2014 instead of trying to fix the DH/LF/SS spots, Ryan decided to bring back Bartlett and Kubel, two players that had no business being on a major league roster. Instead of upgrading the pen heading into 2015, Ryan brought in Tim Stauffer and Boyer, Stauffer was as bad as we all expected and even though Boyer exceeded our expectations, he wasn't the 7th/8th inning guy this team sorely needed.

 

Additionally heading into 2015 Ryan had a corner OF spot to fill (and at the time it looked like CF as well), Nelson Cruz was there for the taking along with several other options, many  of which were more than affordable, what does he do? Signs Torii Hunter for a retirement lap, all Hunter did was hit below average and play at a level that was barely above replacement level.

 

I was hoping that this off-season would be different, Pak and trading Herrmann for anything were two nice small steps forward and I admidt I was getting excited to see what the Twins would do this off-season, but of course 2 small steps forward are followed up by a HUGE step backwards. Now the Twins have yet another hole in the OF to start the season, and to fill it they seem content by inexplicably moving Sano to LF, a move that doesn't make any sense any way you slice it.

 

Perhaps Ryan has an aggressive and GOOD move or two up his sleeve still, and I admidt it's still early, however as the old saying goes, fool me once? shame on me, fool me 17 times? No world series contender anytime soon.

I'm as big a Hicks fans as you'll find and while it's great to know that he CAN play Gold Glove defense, hit 20 HR & steal 20 bases I'd temper those arguments a bit based on the fact that he's never actually DONE any of those things--Signed Eddie Bane, Bob Gorinski, Adam Johnson, Matt Moses, Johnny Ard.