Alex Anthopoulos

bird · October 30, 2015

the Royals weren't 1 piece away when they dealt Meyers, they were widely considered to be failures.

You are the one that brought up the Royals as successful at drafting and developing. What actually changed? They decided to abandon the "we don't trade prospects" rule they had slavishly followed for 20 years. That's what actually changed.

In their minds, the Royals were on the cusp of excellence when they traded Wil Myers for Jim Shields. They were essentially in the place the Twins probably are right now. They were only widely considered to be failures by fans who couldn't envision what was in store for their struggling prospects Cain, Moustakis, and Hosmer, etc.

Things changed for the Royals because they finally began having draft success in the past decade, like everyone else has had in the past decade when they draft a top 10 guy. Their success has almost nothing to do with some imaginary abandonment of an imaginary no-trade policy on prospects. They drafted well, like everybody does who has high picks, over the past decade, and kept most of them. Cain and Perez have more to do with where they are now than Cueto or Shields.

Thrylos · October 30, 2015

I think you're wrong. Count the number of players on each roster who were drafted in the top 10 of their draft year. The point is Dayton Moore would never have gotten to the place he is without them. Ever.

Dayton Moore has gotten his team to two World Series back to back

Terry Ryan has never gotten his team even close to a World Series

Fact.

Do you want to argue that Terry Ryan has not gotten his team to the same place Dayton Moore got his?

Really?

TheLeviathan · October 30, 2015

I don't know how good AA is, but finding someone to take Vernon Wells alone is more than Ryan has accomplished in a LONG time via trade.

Then the "Yes, I'll take Josh Donaldson for this turd sandwich" trade puts him EASILY ahead. The guy has taken advantage of a lot of opportunities. Is some of that luck?

Sure, but you can't get lucky if you aren't even in the conversation.

Brock Beauchamp · October 30, 2015

I don't know how good AA is, but finding someone to take Vernon Wells alone is more than Ryan has accomplished in a LONG time via trade.

Then the "Yes, I'll take Josh Donaldson for this turd sandwich" trade puts him EASILY ahead. The guy has taken advantage of a lot of opportunities. Is some of that luck?

Sure, but you can't get lucky if you aren't even in the conversation.

AA wasn't the guy who suckered Williams into taking Rios, was he? If he was, that's easily my favorite move.

But I think that was Anthopoulos' predecessor.

jokin · October 30, 2015

Dayton Moore has gotten his team to two World Series back to back
Terry Ryan has never gotten his team even close to a World Series

Fact.
Do you want to argue that Terry Ryan has not gotten his team to the same place Dayton Moore got his?
Really?

For many Twins fans, it's Always going to be: "In Terry We Trust."

sane · October 30, 2015

The Twins are trying to hire Alex's midget brother, Mini-thopolis.

TheLeviathan · October 30, 2015

AA wasn't the guy who suckered Williams into taking Rios, was he? If he was, that's easily my favorite move.

But I think that was Anthopoulos' predecessor.

Yeah, that was his predecessor.

Halsey Hall · October 30, 2015

I don't know about all this other stuff, but for KC I give the hitting coach a ton of credit. To help the entire lineup, top to bottom make that kind of contact is incredible. No one hardly strikes out. I don't care who the opposing pitcher is, these guys step into the box with a plan and execute it. It's fun to watch.

nicksaviking · October 30, 2015

AA was able to "go for it" twice in four years in Toronto.

He won't have the same financial flexibility in Minnesota.

Major League Ready · October 30, 2015

20 years of building, how long did it take TOR to be competitive (which they were last year)?

didn't it really change for the Royals when they traded prospects for good pitchers from TB? And, this year they traded prospects for Cueto?

At some point, even KC has learned you can't ONLY rely on your own prospects, sometimes you have to trade PRIZED prospects (Wil Meyers was a top 10 prospect) for outside help.

Wow. Talk about altering reality to fit your preferred narrative. Over the 9 year period before KC turned around they lost 863 games (95.88 losses/season) They got a bunch of high draft picks and kept them until they felt they were ready to contend.

Cueto had little to do with them getting to the WS this year and of course Shields is long gone. The trade with far more significant impact was the one where they sent their best player to Milwaukee and got Cain, Escobar, and Jake Odorizzi. Escobar was somewhat established but he had less than 200 ML games, Cain had 43 games, and Odorizzi was in the minors. http://www.thestar.com/sports/baseball/2015/10/24/royals-success-began-with-2010-trade-of-greinke-to-milwaukee.html

They made no big dollar free agent acquisitions you insist are necessary. As a matter of fact they made the kind of FA acquisitions that most people complain about here with perhaps the exception of Morales.

Yes, they did get to the WS last year and they probably don’t get the wildcard w/o Shields. However, the net was that they traded Meyers and Odorizzi for a one game playoff. Would you trade Buxton and Gonsalves if you knew the result would be a one game playoff in a single year? I seriously doubt there is a GM in the league that trade away Meyers and Odorizzi for one wildcard. Maybe back when it meant a series but now that it means a one game playoff that is a poor result.

We can also look at the Mets. The most significant trade they made was also to trade away Dickey for Travis d’Arnaud, Noah Syndergaard and Wuilmer Becerra.

Most of their roster was developed from within and they did a good job on international players. No, they were not the multi million dollar international signings either. Flores was $750K but the rest were 100K or less.

One somewhat substantial FA in Granderson 4/60M. Most of their roster was developed from within. They made no trades where they gave up notable prospects for established players.

bird · October 30, 2015

Dayton Moore has gotten his team to two World Series back to back
Terry Ryan has never gotten his team even close to a World Series

Fact.
Do you want to argue that Terry Ryan has not gotten his team to the same place Dayton Moore got his?
Really?

No, just that this fact tells you absolutely nothing.

But we were discussing Anthopoulos. I don't have an opinion about the quality of his performance. I see Dombrowski as similar in terms of viewpoint. I see Dayton Moore as very similar to Ryan in terms of viewpoint. I think the consensus opinion regarding Moore is that, finally, he's been vindicated to an extent. A comparison of where Dayton Moore is (back to back WS) versus where Ryan is (a team that missed the playoffs by several games) as an indicator of prowess borders on ignorance to me. Because I see the Twins moving on a similar path to KC's, I'm feeling pretty good about things. Ryan isn't perfect, and neither are AA, Dombrowski, or Moore. You'll find a few people on every one of those market's version of TD that blame the GM for every inadequacy of their team. I think those people are myopic.

bird · October 31, 2015

For many Twins fans, it's Always going to be: "In Terry We Trust."

And of course for other fans, it's Always going to be: "It's Terry's Fault."

In both cases, they're misguided, jokin.

Thrylos · October 31, 2015

And of course for other fans, it's Always going to be: "It's Terry's Fault."

In both cases, they're misguided, jokin.

So...

whose fault is that the Twins have not even been close to a World Series since Terry Ryan became the General Manager, if it is not Ryan's?

("luck" and "nobody" don't cut it)

bird · October 31, 2015

So...

whose fault is that the Twins have not even been close to a World Series since Terry Ryan became the General Manager, if it is not Ryan's?

("luck" and "nobody" don't cut it)

I understand the question, but don't fully understand your need to pin all the "blame" on someone. Why is it so difficult to grasp that things can be caused by a myriad of factors? Why is it so difficult to grasp that not all factors contributing to things can be controlled by the person at the helm?

Go ahead and pin some of it on Ryan, thrylos. I do.

To answer your question about which people to scapegoat, I place more "blame" on Carl Pohlad and his early advisors than on any other individuals. But there are numerous factors that explain the absence of the Twins and about a third of the other organizations from an appearance in the WS, most of which involve the economic structure and economic disparity in MLB.

But let's not go into this (again). It's too likely that any explanation of a contributing factor to the WS drought will be met with the standard and predictable "making excuses for Terry" BS.

PS. There is some luck involved.

sane · October 31, 2015

So...

whose fault is that the Twins have not even been close to a World Series since Terry Ryan became the General Manager, if it is not Ryan's?

("luck" and "nobody" don't cut it)

FACT - Correlation does not prove causation.

Although baseball players stop changing underwear during hot streaks, baseball players don't know diddley about science.

twinssouth · October 31, 2015

I think rating GM's is becoming a hot topic. There is a lot of opinions on it. About 10 years ago I was a fan of Ryan and felt he was one of the best in the game. That opinion changed as the Twins put together teams that could win the division (the weakest in MLB not debatable), but were completely blown away in the playoffs. I don't think of that as a success. He proved good (not great) at building a farm system, but terrible at improving the team at the MLB level.

There are a lot of people talking about this topic right now. I think the next big innovation in baseball will be identifying top GMs.

Agree 100%. Ryan can't seem to shake the Dome mentality. Poland gives him the $ and Ryan still signs mediocre players or goes dumpster diving; like signing Nolasco for 4 years, signing Stauffer, then having to cut him, resigning Pelfrey for 2 more years, Boyer, extending Hughes, signing Santana then being caught with roids, etc. and, what's unfortunate is its blocking some talented kids. So what I see his penchant for signing quantity and hope something sticks. I'll give him credit for Jepsen but it was the kids (Sano, Duffey, May, Rosario) that got them over 500.

nicksaviking · October 31, 2015

So...

whose fault is that the Twins have not even been close to a World Series since Terry Ryan became the General Manager, if it is not Ryan's?

("luck" and "nobody" don't cut it)

I'm not giving Ryan a pass; I've been quite critical and advocated changes.

But there's no way blame for a lack of WS titles falls on one person.

BrianTrottier · October 31, 2015

Lol if you think that was a "true" promotion, yes, going from running the day to day show to not doing that anymore in basically a token front office role is a "promotion"

This is nothing but petulance and does not contribute to constructive discussion. You're simply airing grievances. Wait for the holidays for that.

spinowner · October 31, 2015

Not sure that makes him the right guy or not, but it would increase my confidence they'd actually try to win it all, rather than build for next year.

Not sure that makes him the right guy or not, but it would increase my fear they'd actually try to win it all, rather than build for next year.

I think the time for the Twins to go all in will come, but I doubt that time will come in 2016. There are those who admire AA's bold approach to will it all this year but plain and simply his strategy failed. Fell flat on its face and died. I know that refusing to trade your best prospects is no guarantee either, but I think the Twins' current approach is generally a better strategy than what the Blue Jays did this year.

USAFChief · October 31, 2015

Not sure that makes him the right guy or not, but it would increase my fear they'd actually try to win it all, rather than build for next year.
I think the time for the Twins to go all in will come, but I doubt that time will come in 2016. There are those who admire AA's bold approach to will it all this year but plain and simply his strategy failed. Fell flat on its face and died. I know that refusing to trade your best prospects is no guarantee either, but I think the Twins' current approach is generally a better strategy than what the Blue Jays did this year.

Sometimes it seems to me people have shifting standards.

When the Twins make the postseason, that's proof Ryan knows what he's doing. The playoffs are a crapshoot and can't be held against him.

When Toronto makes the ALCS, AA fell flat on his ace and died.

bird · October 31, 2015

Sometimes it seems to me people have shifting standards.

When the Twins make the postseason, that's proof Ryan knows what he's doing. The playoffs are a crapshoot and can't be held against him.

When Toronto makes the ALCS, AA fell flat on his ace and died.

I agree. When the Twins can't get past the Yankees in the playoffs, it's the manager's fault and the GM's fault. When Toronto is knocked out in the first round, the GM is a failure. Or it can't be held against him. Or he's still a success.

Or maybe we're applying a ridiculously irrelevant standard that doesn't prove squat about a GM.

Reider · October 31, 2015

I'm not sure that Alex Anthopoulos would be a good fit here. I'm not sure that he wouldn't be either.

I wasn't overly impressed with his work until this year. I thought he did a great job this year and he seems like a good person. Criticize all you want, but it was by far the Blue Jays' most exciting season since 1993 and I haven't heard a single fan up here in Canada complain about the job AA did this year. People were coming out of every crevice of this country to watch the Blue Jays.

However, it's difficult to truly know how good AA really is in the GM role until he is able to string multiple good years in a row together. While I believe that luck is definitely plays a role to a certain degree, I do think AA has learned from his past mistakes and because of that, was able to make smarter decisions in 2015.

Regardless of who the GM of the Twins is moving forward, I want to see the GM's ability to identify and address the teams' needs in a cerebral way. Furthermore, with the way the young players played in 2015, I strongly believe that the Twins can make the playoffs in 2016 if they play their cards right, moving forward.

Platoon · October 31, 2015

I don't think Ryan's tenure has been anything that will send him to the GM HOF. But he does have a chance this off season to use his excesses at some positions to rectify shortfalls at other positions. This isn't going to be all about the money, it's going to be about restructuring the roster, balancing it if you will. It's also going to take some trust in his minor league system, and make some moves based on upcoming talent. Iffy? Of course, but that's what separates the good GM, from the mediocre. If Suzuki is still option 1 behind the plate, if they have not resolved the Sano at DH issue, and if the BP goes north with the usual suspects, being competitive will rely on the rest of the division being non competitive. Unlikely. Just waddling along hanging onto the second WC fringes, should not be the criteria used in evaluating the season. You just might be there because of some other teams ineptitude, or bad luck. You should look at your own team, and decide whether you feel it's a good solid competitive team, can it compete as constructed if all goes fairly. Riding a streak of fortunate circumstances to 3 games out of the 2nd WC, does not a good team make!

ashbury · October 31, 2015

As for comparisons, how many 90+ loss seasons did Toronto have the last 5 years while they were supposedly making bad move after bad move? I count none.

How many 88+ loss seasons?

bird · October 31, 2015

How many 88+ loss seasons?

Just answer the question, Mr. Ashbury. Yes or no?

Brock Beauchamp · October 31, 2015

I consider consistent 83-88 loss seasons far more damning than 90+ loss seasons. That's the hallmark of an incompetent GM, not a good one. The job of a good GM is to push the pendulum through the middle of its swing between good and bad as quickly as possible. Spending an inordinate amount of time in the 76-83 win range - barring unforeseen catastrophe - is bad managing.

Not that I'm claiming AA is incompetent, merely pointing out the argument is a bad one if you're trying to defend Anthopoulos.

spinowner · October 31, 2015

Sometimes it seems to me people have shifting standards.

When the Twins make the postseason, that's proof Ryan knows what he's doing. The playoffs are a crapshoot and can't be held against him.

When Toronto makes the ALCS, AA fell flat on his ace and died.

The reason AA made the bold moves he made in July was not to strengthen his organization, it was to win the WS this year. The strategy failed, as it almost always does. That's why I put it the way I did. Yes, there can be exceptions, but they are just that. Exceptions, not the rule. It is precisely because the playoffs ARE a crapshoot that a team is better off trying to build a consistently strong organization rather than trading away good prospects for the sake of trying to make a 3-month run. You'll have many more opportunities at the postseason that way. IMHO, of course.

nicksaviking · October 31, 2015

Let's also consider that Mark Shapiro, a pretty successful and respected baseball man thought he needed to reduce AA's responsibilities.

DaveW · October 31, 2015

At this point just give me someone other than Ryan. 1 out of 17 isn't a high bar, so id be good with just about any candidate who was under the age of 50 and/or willing to "evolve" with the game instead of hanging onto failed philosophies for way too long "i.e. pitch to contact"

AA while not perfect at least has shown he can be aggressive when need be and has been some really key trades.

Again my hope would be:

Ryan to president

New person to GM

St Peter to PR for the Gophers

Ryan still has plenty of value to the org, just not as the everyday GM IMO. St Peter? Never should have been prez in the first place, never should have kept his job with the Twins after the Cordova commercial debacle.

Thrylos · October 31, 2015

Let's also consider that Mark Shapiro, a pretty successful and respected baseball man thought he needed to reduce AA's responsibilities.

How many World Series rings does Shapiro have? How do you measure success?

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