Molitor: ..... Hunter MVP consideration!

[DaveW]

 

People are getting way too caught up in Molitor's hyperbole.  All he (and several players) are saying is that Hunter has helped changed the team's mental approach to the game.

 

I doubt there are many Twins fans that have stayed tuned in the last few years that didn't notice that the team looked beat and defeated for long stretches of the season.

 

I was against signing Hunter (and very against resigning him) but I think he's brought more value with the bat, glove, and intangibles than I thought he could.  I think we can tip our cap to that effort, which is what it seems that Molitor is doing here.  He just went overboard in doing so.

Yeah, it was overboard IMO.

 

And you are right, Hunter has been ok this year overall, and his last few weeks have been very productive. Color me impressed overall with his bat. (His fielding-meh) But he absolutely shouldn't be plan A or plan B for starting RF heading into 2016.

[TheLeviathan]

We have Rosario, Buxton, Hicks, Arcia, and Kepler as potential outfield options.  Hunter shouldn't even be Plan Z.

[DaveW]

 

We have Rosario, Buxton, Hicks, Arcia, and Kepler as potential outfield options.  Hunter shouldn't even be Plan Z.

Plouffe could also be in the mix, if you wanna put Sano at 3rd and Vargas at DH.

[jimmer]

 

We agree that the team is playing above the talent level, why can't that be because of leadership?  To say players are the only as valuable as their WAR is really missing a lot in valuation of a player.  Like I said previously, do we really think Nolasco is 2 times more valuable than Mauer this year?

Because it's asks us to make tons of assumptions.  First we assume it's leadership as opposed to fortuitous sequencing. It assumes it's only him providing leadership (and discounts other people's leadership and the individuals player's hard work which could just as easily be the main reason).  It assumes it's not Molitor, or the influx of rookies (and their energy), or just players getting more experience. It assumes any leadership actually translates to players playing better on the diamond which there is no sign of.  In fact, most players held over from last year aren't playing better than they did last year, are they?

 

I buy that he's been a mentor to some of the players and he's a veteran who has a lot to share.  There is value, but baseball is, for the most part, a bunch of individual battles. Pitcher versus batter, batted ball versus fielder, etc. Hunter's leadership isn't going to make Escobar get the game winning hit or make the pitcher throw 7 innings of shutout ball. 

[DaveW]

I have brought it up before, the best case scenario for everyone involved:

Twins win the world series.

Hunter then retires going out on top.

Win, win, win.

Actually screw it, if the Twins win the world series this year, I will be the first to applaud them resigning Hunter for 2016, he can start every game in 16 for all I care at that point, will be too busy celebrating all year long.

[USAFChief]

Y'know what assumes a lot? "Fortuitous sequencing."

[jimmer]

'Comment From Mr. Thell: Given the influx of talent from the minor league system and the surprising performance of some guys already up, how do you see the Twins future? Are they going to be a playoff team for the next few years

 

Dave Cameron: They weren’t a good team this year; they just won a bunch of games due to sequencing. They’re not particularly close to being a good team, I don’t think.'

 

Of course, that's only coming from a person paid to analyze the game for a living not a Hollywood writer, so with a grain of salt.

 

Considering where this team ranks in pitching, defense and hitting it makes no sense they are where they are.  Clearly they've been fortunate to have good things happen at the right times.

[DaveW]

Ah yes, Dave Cameron, the man who a few short years ago said the Mariners had the best org in baseball.

[USAFChief]

 

Ah yes, Dave Cameron, the man who a few short years ago said the Mariners had the best org in baseball.

"6th best," I believe, which has become quite famous.

 

 

[jimmer]

 

Ah yes, Dave Cameron, the man who a few short years ago said the Mariners had the best org in baseball.

Name me a baseball analyst who is perfect in everything they say?  Anybody can point to any analyst and find a thing and claim that discredits him.  It's about what you do that bring you to create your opinion, the work put into it, the way they back it up.  Can't always be right, but there are some analysts that do the homework and give the best opinion they can based on that.  They give an opinion, they say why with lots of info, and sometimes they still get it wrong.  That happens, not only in baseball, but all sports and all professions.

[USAFChief]

 

Name me a baseball analyst who is perfect in everything they say?  Anybody can point to any analyst and find a thing and claim that discredits him.  It's about what you do that bring you to create your opinion, the work put into it, the way they back it up.  Can't always be right, but there are some analysts that do the homework and give the best opinion they can based on that.  They give an opinion, they say why with lots of info, and sometimes they still get it wrong.  That happens, not only in baseball, but all sports and all professions.

So he could be wrong on the Twins in 2015?

 

Did he present any evidence for "fortuitous sequencing?"  Or is that just a convenient explanation which covers everything that Fangraphs can't explain, or doesn't follow their projections?

[jimmer]

Considering where this team ranks in pitching, defense and hitting it makes no sense they are where they are.  Do we have anyone who would make a 25 man AL roster?  How about a 25 man AL Central roster? Sano at DH?  Yeah, maybe. None of these guys, besides Sano, are killing it. Clearly they've been fortunate to have good things happen at the right times. Cause, in the end, it's about what gets done on the field.  Leadership doesn't make a batter get a key hit, or make a key pitcher, or make a key play.

[Platoon]

I posted this knowing it would start a bleep storm! And it did. But to me, the almost bigger issue is that we, Minnesota fans in general, have "sunk" to the level that we have discussion or accept discussion, that Hunter could be a MVP, or earlier in the year whether Hughes is a league Ace? And it's not just the Twins. We too easily embrace mediocrity. I admittedly have never lived in another market, so I cannot definitively say other areas aren't similar. But I have been puzzled for a long time over our, for lack of a better word, excitement over performances that in NY, Boston, St. Louis, or LA would probably be considered "meh". Hunter had a better year than I thought he would, but an MVP year? Puhleeze!

[bird]

 

Twins lose 92 or more games 4 years in a row.

 

Twins sign Hunter and they are in playoff contention most of the year and have a winning season for the first time in 5 years.

 

Ergo, because the Twins signed Hunter, the Twins are in playoff contention most of the year and have a winning season for the first time in 5 seasons.

 

There's a name for this kind of reasoning.

 

Seems plenty of people are just accepting that Hunter was the difference as if it was fact. 

  Really? Name one person who is using that kind of reasoning. Name one person who has argued that Hunter is the difference. There's a middle ground between that and your intense loathing of him, and that's where I see most every argument fall.

 

 

[jimmer]

 

  Really? Name one person who is using that kind of reasoning. Name one person who has argued that Hunter is the difference. There's a middle ground between that and your intense loathing of him, and that's where I see most every argument fall.

Okay, so I have intense loathing of him because I take issue with the idea that leadership (in this particular case his) made this team win way more than the way they performed dictates? I loathe him because I say maybe there are other reasons we've won that make more sense, IMO. That's interesting logic. Stop taking cheap shots at posters you don't agree with.

 

I already granted that mentorship is important.  I didn't deny he provides it.  And I think it's important.  I have taken no personal shots at Hunter in this thread, have I? It's a debate in philosophies and if someone was saying it about Dozier or any other Twin, I'd say the same thing. And there are people in here giving him a really good size credit, to include Molitor to start the whole thread.

[bird]

 

Yep - the coaches were the guys who couldn't play anymore.

 

Yep- and the players were the guys who couldn't play yet.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Okay, so I have intense loathing of him because I take issue with the idea that leadership (in this particular case his) made this team win way more than the way they performed dictates?

 

Whew!  Good thing NO ONE IS SAYING THAT.

 

You just admitted it can be a good thing.  You agree with pretty much everyone you seem to think you disagree with.  So what the hell are we talking about?

[jimmer]

 

Whew!  Good thing NO ONE IS SAYING THAT.

 

You just admitted it can be a good thing.  You agree with pretty much everyone you seem to think you disagree with.  So what the hell are we talking about?

birdwatcher just said that my loathing of him is what my argument is about.  It's not.

 

And I, in no way, am saying his leadership is anywhere near a sizable reason for why we have won more than our talent dictates.  I say mentorship is needed for sure, but most all veteran players mentor younger players.  It's not unique to any one player and, in the end, the players still have to come through at the right time. No leadership makes them do that.And M

 

And Molitor IS saying he's the major reason. So, yes SOMEONE IS SAYING THAT.  He says he deserves MVP  for goodness sakes.  Read his quotes again and if you don't think he's saying Hunter isn't the main reason, I don't know what to tell you.  At least nothing I can say.

[TheLeviathan]

 

 Molitor IS saying he's the major reason. So, yes SOMEONE IS SAYING THAT.  He says he deserves MVP  for goodness sakes.  Read his quotes again and if you don't think he's saying Hunter isn't the main reason, I don't know what to tell you.  At least nothing I can say.

 

And everyone agrees he seriously overstated his point.  No one is suggesting he deserves MVP votes in this thread.

 

We're all going to disagree about how impactful intangibles are to a team's records.  Hell, that's sort of the definition of intangibles.  

[Monkeypaws]

 

Considering where this team ranks in pitching, defense and hitting it makes no sense they are where they are.  Do we have anyone who would make a 25 man AL roster?  How about a 25 man AL Central roster? Sano at DH?  Yeah, maybe. None of these guys, besides Sano, are killing it. Clearly they've been fortunate to have good things happen at the right times. Cause, in the end, it's about what gets done on the field.  Leadership doesn't make a batter get a key hit, or make a key pitcher, or make a key play.

It's all chemistry - it's the Torii factor.

 

They just wanna dance.

 

 

Logic has no place in the world of pro sports Jimmer.

[jimmer]

I imagine this lawyer talk is going to continue endlessly.  All this he said this and this and this but that doesn't add up to him saying that.

 

So I will bow out of this particular thread with this, which goes back to the OP. It's absolutely ridiculous to think he deserves even a single vote for MVP.   

[bird]

My apologies, jimmer. No cheap shot intended whatsoever, was just taking issue with putting thoughts and words in other's heads and mouths.

[TheLeviathan]

I think we all agree it was ridiculous hyperbole for Hunter to get any MVP votes.  It was Molitor trying hard to pat his guy on the back and he went to a silly, over-the-top point to do it.

 

His deeper meaning that Hunter has been a valuable addition (certainly more than I ever thought it would) is a fair point.

[Boom Boom]

Only if Donaldson, Trout, et. al. are really awful leaders.

[Linus]

Wow, that was a fun read.

[Monkeypaws]

Been mulling over this thread....

 

AL MVP, no way.

 

However, what Hunter has provided this season is leadership - if you have ever worked in an environment with an exceptional leader, you will know what I mean.

 

He provided something that has been missing from this team for a while.

 

His late surge is just another example of that.

[Thrylos]

 

Also any voter that gives Hunter any top ten votes should have his voting privledges taken away.

 

Sano, Dozier, Hicks, Rosario, Escobar, Plouffe, Duffey and Perkins all deserve votes more than Hunter.

 

Perkins?

 

[gil4]

 

Actually screw it, if the Twins win the world series this year, I will be the first to applaud them resigning Hunter for 2016, he can start every game in 16 for all I care at that point, will be too busy celebrating all year long.

Championships are forever.  Have any of us who are old enough to remember ever really stopped celebrating 1987 and 1991? 

[DaveW]

 

Championships are forever.  Have any of us who are old enough to remember ever really stopped celebrating 1987 and 1991? 

I was 6 years old in 91, my Dad took me to game 7 (we drove up from Nebraska, halfway up to see game 6 at a famiies friends house and the rest of the way the next day)

 

My mom and he decided that I should go instead of her, and damn if it wasn't the most amazing night ever!

 

I remember the game so,so,so well for being so young, especially the part where I needed to take a "pee" in the 8th inning and had to wait until the game was over, in case we miss the big play.

 

Gene Larkin hits the game winning hit, we celebrate for 2 minutes, run to the bathroom, come back and celebrate for another 30 minutes. Felll asleep in the back of the car driving out of Minneapolis/downtown during the celebration. I will never forget it, I can't even imagine how freaking awesome it would be now that I am an adult and can fully comprehend the situation. Especially since I have pledged to buy my dad and younger brother (who wasn't even born in 91) world series tickets when (not if) the Twins make it again.

[Major League Ready]

 

I think we all agree it was ridiculous hyperbole for Hunter to get any MVP votes.  It was Molitor trying hard to pat his guy on the back and he went to a silly, over-the-top point to do it.

 

His deeper meaning that Hunter has been a valuable addition (certainly more than I ever thought it would) is a fair point.

Is it allowed to demonstrate this much common sense on TD?