May vs. Pelfrey The Actual Data and The Law of Unintended Consequences

[jokin]

A lot of debate lately on the Twins rotation and May's evolving role. "Solving" the game of musical chairs problem has led to a building pile of unanticipated consequences. Due to Tommy Milone's injury, an unproven rookie has now been called up to debut in an away game- in the midst of the most pivotal series for the Twins so far this year (ie, Tyler Duffey vs. the best-hitting team in baseball, the Toronto Blue Jays, on Wednesday). Meanwhile, Pelfrey has silenced the critics for now with a brilliant performance on Sunday vs. the Mariners.

Here are some of the recent posts regarding the May situation:

sane, on 02 Aug 2015 - 11:24 AM, said:
So "the Twins are so ignorant" is more likely than that May is not ready to go 6-8 innings in Milone's next starting slot? I don't think it is the Twins who are ignorant in this case.
Riverbrian, on 02 Aug 2015 - 12:18 PM, said:
Maybe... It's possible that Duffey is looking good and they want to get a look at him... Just in case he can help.
Maybe it isn't about May at all
Riverbrian, on 02 Aug 2015 - 10:00 PM, said:
But... What if the Twins were easing May into a bullpen role and May is now starting to prove that he can help solidify the bullpen so the Twins don't want to move him back with Milone out for a minimum DL stay only to move him back again when Milone returns.
We need the bullpen help more than we need SP's right now. May has the stuff to be that bullpen guy and Duffey looks like he's getting some things done based on his stats in Rochester.
I think May has been talked to by Molitor... I think May knows the plan and is hopefully willing to help the Twins in anyway he is asked to. Jham, on 02 Aug 2015 - 10:47 PM, said:
I was one that said it would be temporary. And if the bullpen weren't such a total mess, he would be taking Milone's spot. As it were, May is shining in the pen. He's throwing harder and attacking more directly. Going deep into games and conserving his energy was always his biggest knock. The guy he would have replaced in the rotation, Pelfrey, just put forth a start better than May has ever put up his whole career. 8ip on 100 pitches. Pelfrey, regardless of how many hits and runs he gives up, eats innings. He goes deep into games and manages his pitch count, saving the pen. 4 runs through seven full is better than 3 runs through 5 1/3rd the way our pen is giving it up. Innings eaters have value. May throwing 97 out of the pen has value.

And the following is my reprint with the pertinent data, vis a vis May vs. Pelfrey.

1) Regarding Trevor May and the Twins explaining their intentions for him, starting on July 1 to August 2:

I'm sure he's been talked to, but Molitor showed his hand early on when May was moved out of the rotation; when questioned by reporters, he said that keeping him in a limbo role- aka "The Plan"- with the Twins won out over sending him down and continuing to start him in the AAA rotation. May no doubt is a good soldier, but I have to think his head was spinning when he got his talking to. He led all starters in fWAR for the month of April, as well as for the months of May and June combined... and he was actually getting better from mid-May until his demotion after his start on July 1 (*** check the stats on his last 9 starts below).

2) If it really, truly, "isn't about May at all", maybe it should have been?

3) Milone was very effective for the month leading up to the ASG, but wouldn't it have been nice to have been able to plug May into his slot 2 starts sooner when Milone was obviously struggling, post ASG? And are we just to assume that Milone returns to his June form after his DL stint?

4) Here is a pretty comprehensive summary of the comparable data measuring each pitcher's recent effectiveness and (alleged) innings-eating capabilities:

Before today's game, strictly SP comps:

Pelfrey eats up innings

Pelfrey- 5.8 IP/Start May- 5.4 IP/Start

Pelfrey manages his pitch count

Pelfrey- 91.2 Pitches/gm 63.4% Str% May- 86.4 Pitches/gm 66.2% Str%

May is shining in the pen

Yes, but in 10 relief appearances, he's pitched in 2 high lev situations and 0 medium lev. His velocity is up but his K/9 and K% are actually lower than when he was a starter.

Pelfrey eats up innings Pt. 2

In his last 9 starts, counting Sunday's 8 IP effort, Pelfrey has gone 7 or 8 IP a grand total of THREE TIMES.
In his last 9 starts, May went 7 IP a grand total of THREE TIMES (OK, one of those 3 was 6.2 IP)

***May is shining in the pen Pt 2 (but he was also shining in the rotation, and had improved quite a bit on his season's stats previous to that point in time [May 16- July 1])

In his last 9 starts, May averaged 5.6 IP. K/9 8.40 BB/9 1.79 ERA/FIP/xFIP 3.75/3.23/3.62
In his last 9 starts, Pelfrey avrgd. 5.7 IP. K/9 4.56 BB/9 2.98 ERA/FIP/xFIP 5.44/4.70/4.45

May throwing 97 out of the pen has value.

Comp above to May's first 9 relief apprncs K/9 6.97 BB/9 1.74 ERA/FIP/xFIP 3.48/3.67/4.60

Conclusions:

1) When strictly comping the stats for the 2, Pelfrey was/is clearly the inferior choice to start, and he doesn't significantly eat more innings.
2) May's peripherals demonstrated that he has actually been less effective in a relief role than as a starter, and obviously, he hasn't been able to help the team in his current evolving role nearly as much as he did through July 1 in his previous role.
3) The Twins, instead of putting May into a limbo role, needed to bolster their bullpen, before the AS break- from outside the organization or from the minors, or both. They knew about the impending Santana situation crowding the rotation from Day One, they also knew that Boyer, Stauffer and Fien were poor options for the 7h-8th innings from just a few days after Day One.

[drjim]

While all this is true, I do chuckle a little that it was posted the day after Pelfrey went 8 scoreless.

[DaveW]

Yeah, Pelf looked pretty solid yesterday.

[Mike Sixel]

40 innings a year, or 180 innings a year? Guy with a future here, or guy with no future here? No idea how this is seen as correct.

[nicksaviking]

His bullpen numbers haven't been all that shiney despite his velocity and pitches, but again that's likely more to do with sample size.  Still, even if May was the best option for the bullpen because he has the potential to be lights out, how would that be any different than every club saying their best starter would make the best reliever?  Doesn't it go without saying that Felix Hernandez and Clayton Kershaw would probably be pretty good in the pen too?

 

 

[DaveW]

It's perplexing for sure. I would have never taken May out to begin with. What is really frustrating is they are bringing up Duffey to pitch instead of May. Duffey is gonna get destroyed vs Toronto

[drjim]

 

40 innings a year, or 180 innings a year? Guy with a future here, or guy with no future here? No idea how this is seen as correct.

 

Why do you keep mentioning 40 innings? 

[Mike Sixel]

I admitted in the other thread it could be up to 60 or 80......

 

4 RP last year pitched more than 80. 4.

 

2 RP put up 3 or more WAR. 11 put up 2 or more WAR.

 

that's why teams have their best pitchers in the starting rotation, because they have a massively larger effect on outcomes as starters than relievers.

[nicksaviking]

 

It's perplexing for sure. I would have never taken May out to begin with. What is really frustrating is they are bringing up Duffey to pitch instead of May. Duffey is gonna get destroyed vs Toronto

 

Based on how things are going, he'll probably be lights out the rest of the year, which will further cloud the rotation picture for next year.

 

Of course, having enough good young pitchers isn't something to complain about.  Unless they get squeezed out of the rotation by vets on unmovable contracts.

[Brock Beauchamp]

I understand not wanting to start May against Toronto. That's asking a lot from a guy who hasn't made a start in over a month.

 

With that said, bad ideas continue to force more bad ideas. I wasn't completely against May going to the bullpen but it took way too long to get him into leverage situations. The Twins needed a quick fix, chose a quick fix, and then took their sweet time actually implementing the fix.

 

It's... Maddening, to say the least.

[dougkoebernick]

I still think the decision between May and Pelf came down to who could pitch more effectively out of the bullpen (and get ready to pitch on short notice). I think putting Pelf there was putting a square peg in a round hole and the Twins knew that and decided to ride it out and see what happened. 

 

As far as Duffey vs. the Blue Jays, it seems that when a guy that a team doesn't know shows up there is some potential for an Andrew Albers moment (and sometimes not!).

 

"On August 6, 2013, Albers made his Major League debut and earned the win, pitching 81⁄3 scoreless innings against the Kansas City Royals and yielding just 4 hits and 1 walk while striking out 2.[8] In his second career start on August 12, Albers threw his first complete game and shutout, defeating the Cleveland Indians 3–0. Albers gave up 2 hits, no walks, and struck out 2 batters."

[kab21]

There is no explaining this.  May should be starting.

[Jham]

 

A lot of debate lately on the Twins rotation and May's evolving role. "Solving" the game of musical chairs problem has led to a building pile of unanticipated consequences. Due to Tommy Milone's injury, an unproven rookie has now been called up to debut in an away game- in the midst of the most pivotal series for the Twins so far this year (ie, Tyler Duffey vs. the best-hitting team in baseball, the Toronto Blue Jays, on Wednesday). Meanwhile, Pelfrey has silenced the critics for now with a brilliant performance on Sunday vs. the Mariners.

Here are some of the recent posts regarding the May situation:

And the following is my reprint with the pertinent data, vis a vis May vs. Pelfrey.

1) Regarding Trevor May and the Twins explaining their intentions for him, starting on July 1 to August 2:

I'm sure he's been talked to, but Molitor showed his hand early on when May was moved out of the rotation; when questioned by reporters, he said that keeping him in a limbo role- aka "The Plan"- with the Twins won out over sending him down and continuing to start him in the AAA rotation. May no doubt is a good soldier, but I have to think his head was spinning when he got his talking to. He led all starters in fWAR for the month of April, as well as for the months of May and June combined... and he was actually getting better from mid-May until his demotion after his start on July 1 (*** check the stats on his last 9 starts below).

2) If it really, truly, "isn't about May at all", maybe it should have been?

3) Milone was very effective for the month leading up to the ASG, but wouldn't it have been nice to have been able to plug May into his slot 2 starts sooner when Milone was obviously struggling, post ASG? And are we just to assume that Milone returns to his June form after his DL stint?

4) Here is a pretty comprehensive summary of the comparable data measuring each pitcher's recent effectiveness and (alleged) innings-eating capabilities:

Before today's game, strictly SP comps:

Pelfrey eats up innings

Pelfrey- 5.8 IP/Start May- 5.4 IP/Start

Pelfrey manages his pitch count

Pelfrey- 91.2 Pitches/gm 63.4% Str% May- 86.4 Pitches/gm 66.2% Str%

May is shining in the pen

Yes, but in 10 relief appearances, he's pitched in 2 high lev situations and 0 medium lev. His velocity is up but his K/9 and K% are actually lower than when he was a starter.

Pelfrey eats up innings Pt. 2

In his last 9 starts, counting Sunday's 8 IP effort, Pelfrey has gone 7 or 8 IP a grand total of THREE TIMES.
In his last 9 starts, May went 7 IP a grand total of THREE TIMES (OK, one of those 3 was 6.2 IP)

***May is shining in the pen Pt 2 (but he was also shining in the rotation, and had improved quite a bit on his season's stats previous to that point in time [May 16- July 1])

In his last 9 starts, May averaged 5.6 IP. K/9 8.40 BB/9 1.79 ERA/FIP/xFIP 3.75/3.23/3.62
In his last 9 starts, Pelfrey avrgd. 5.7 IP. K/9 4.56 BB/9 2.98 ERA/FIP/xFIP 5.44/4.70/4.45

May throwing 97 out of the pen has value.

Comp above to May's first 9 relief apprncs K/9 6.97 BB/9 1.74 ERA/FIP/xFIP 3.48/3.67/4.60

Conclusions:

1) When strictly comping the stats for the 2, Pelfrey was/is clearly the inferior choice to start, and he doesn't significantly eat more innings.
2) May's peripherals demonstrated that he has actually been less effective in a relief role than as a starter, and obviously, he hasn't been able to help the team in his current evolving role nearly as much as he did through July 1 in his previous role.
3) The Twins, instead of putting May into a limbo role, needed to bolster their bullpen, before the AS break- from outside the organization or from the minors, or both. They knew about the impending Santana situation crowding the rotation from Day One, they also knew that Boyer, Stauffer and Fien were poor options for the 8th innings from just a few days after Day One.

I feel like there's some cherry picking of stats...  Pelfrey's gone 7 innings or more in 9 of 20 starts this year.  What more do you want from a #5 starter?  May has gone 7 innings (never gotten more than 21 outs) in exactly 2 out of 15 starts this year and 0-10 last year.  

 

I don't know how many times I can repeat this, but the FIP everyone is using to proclaim that May is our best starter is skewed because of the low amount of walks and home runs May has given up.  Both are likely to stabilize out to closer to his MiLB numbers.  Given May's profile as a fly-ball/ strike out pitcher, I'm not confident in his ability to limit the long ball.  Pelfrey, on the other hand, has almost always had a lower FIP than xFIP (meaning he has through his career shown an ability to limit HR's).  Pelfrey's FIP is currently 4.05.  May's xFIP accounting for an avg. number of HR's is 3.84.*  Those numbers are probably within the margin of error for the sample size.  I don't see how anyone can be anything but delighted with what Pelfrey has contributed.  I don't see how anyone can be mad about May potentially solidifying the most glaring weakness in our team, and I certainly don't see the outrage in keeping the two in their current roles.  

 

*I understand I'm comparing FIP and xFIP, FIP seems more appropriate for Pelfrey who has posted a FIP below his xFIP virtually every year of his career.  I used xFIP for May because his profile is that of a pitcher who will give up an avg. to above avg. HR total.  

**Additionally, I have some concerns about FIP and xFIP in general, as they start with a somewhat flawed premise that pitchers can't control contact.  They eliminate 1 huge variant (defense), but don't account for GB/FB, induced double plays, etc that don't result in home runs.  It's a far from perfect stat.

 

[nicksaviking]

 

 

I don't know how many times I can repeat this, but the FIP everyone is using to proclaim that May is our best starter is skewed because of the low amount of walks and home runs May has given up.  Both are likely to stabilize out to closer to his MiLB numbers.  

 

 

His HR might stabalize, I don't know why his BB would though unless one was of the mind the BB is largely controled by luck.  I didn't see any indication that his control was an issue that was being masked by something else.

 

[KGB]

I agree that normally it would make sense to get the younger May into the rotation this year, but looking at next year’s rotation and bullpen, I can see getting a look at him in the bullpen is necessary.

 

2016 Rotation:
Santana
Hughes
Gibson
Nolasco (who like Pelfrey this year, we’ll all complain about why he is in the rotation, but if healthy, his guaranteed contract will keep him in the rotation)
Milone/May/Berrios/Meyer/etc all for 5th starter

 

Because the way the Twins set up the roster over the last couple years, they are locked into contracts for the starter with no trade value.  If May can handle the 8th inning, he becomes a valuable piece for next year’s team.

[jimbo92107]

 

While all this is true, I do chuckle a little that it was posted the day after Pelfrey went 8 scoreless.

Before his last outing, I thought Mike Pelfrey was wearing down. Now I think what's really happening is that it depends what kind of team he faces. Pelfrey has trouble against really aggressive offenses, like the Brewers, Reds, etc. He has trouble holding good base stealers, and it upsets his game when guys like Carlos Gomez and Billy Hamilton are on base. Also, like a lot of pitchers, he seemed to have trouble handling that first spell of really hot weather this season.

[Halsey Hall]

I don't understand why May isn't used for multiple innings late in tie games.  Yesterday is one example of a couple where he could of come in for the 9th and longer if the game went on.  There's no reason he can't pitch 3 or 4 innings of shutdown ball.  I think that's his greatest asset.  One inning at a time doesn't utilize that. 

[jokin]

 

While all this is true, I do chuckle a little that it was posted the day after Pelfrey went 8 scoreless.

 

Yeah, Pelf looked pretty solid yesterday.

 

You did notice that I acknowledged that fact in the first paragraph? 

While Pelf's been a pleasant surprise at times... there's no denying that he's also been the model of inconsistency, especially in his last 9 starts, and there's nothing to chuckle about with his total net results.

 

And honestly ask yourself this question, who would you rather have start in a key game in the stretch run, or say, Game 3 in the ALDS?

[jokin]

 

I feel like there's some cherry picking of stats...  Pelfrey's gone 7 innings or more in 9 of 20 starts this year.  What more do you want from a #5 starter?  May has gone 7 innings (never gotten more than 21 outs) in exactly 2 out of 15 starts this year and 0-10 last year.  

 

 

 

 

No cherry-picking on my part.  I first listed the season stats- 5.8 IP/start for Pelfrey, 5.4 IP/start for May- plus the season pitch counts. I then chose each player's last 9 starts, indicating where they were/are at in a Starter's role, and juxtabposed May's first 9 relief appearances, as well.  May was on a stretch of mostly very strong performances, with one hiccup in his second to last start. And he nearly had three 7-inning games during the his last 9 games, the same as Pelfrey.  Over much of the same stretch, with a month or so overlapping, Pelfrey has been anywhere from very bad, to very mediocre, to very good.

 

I chose this methodology because "What have you done for me lately?"... is far more appropriate to project how each might do in the short-run... vs taking the season's body of work as a whole. Are any of us expecting that Pelfrey is likely to repeat another stretch like his early run of innings-eating success again?... or more likely to be much more resembling the Mike Pelfrey from 2010 to 2014?

[jokin]

 

I admitted in the other thread it could be up to 60 or 80......

 

4 RP last year pitched more than 80. 4.

 

2 RP put up 3 or more WAR. 11 put up 2 or more WAR.

 

that's why teams have their best pitchers in the starting rotation, because they have a massively larger effect on outcomes as starters than relievers.

 

Yep, May nearly put up 2 fWAR in the first 3 months (and a day) to lead Twins pitchers.  

 

Not so much in the last month-  since h'es become a reliever, all of 0.1 fWAR.

[nater79a]

 

I still think the decision between May and Pelf came down to who could pitch more effectively out of the bullpen (and get ready to pitch on short notice). I think putting Pelf there was putting a square peg in a round hole and the Twins knew that and decided to ride it out and see what happened. 

 

As far as Duffey vs. the Blue Jays, it seems that when a guy that a team doesn't know shows up there is some potential for an Andrew Albers moment (and sometimes not!).

 

"On August 6, 2013, Albers made his Major League debut and earned the win, pitching 81⁄3 scoreless innings against the Kansas City Royals and yielding just 4 hits and 1 walk while striking out 2.[8] In his second career start on August 12, Albers threw his first complete game and shutout, defeating the Cleveland Indians 3–0. Albers gave up 2 hits, no walks, and struck out 2 batters."

 

You nailed it. Always love to spring pitchers on teams that have no clue about what they throw. Advantage pitcher. (Big caveat: assuming the moment isn't too big for them.)

 

Albers, yes. Plus, I always remember Matt Fox, September 2010 in the middle of a pennant race. 

[nicksaviking]

 

I agree that normally it would make sense to get the younger May into the rotation this year, but looking at next year’s rotation and bullpen, I can see getting a look at him in the bullpen is necessary.

 

2016 Rotation:
Santana
Hughes
Gibson
Nolasco (who like Pelfrey this year, we’ll all complain about why he is in the rotation, but if healthy, his guaranteed contract will keep him in the rotation)
Milone/May/Berrios/Meyer/etc all for 5th starter

 

Because the way the Twins set up the roster over the last couple years, they are locked into contracts for the starter with no trade value.  If May can handle the 8th inning, he becomes a valuable piece for next year’s team.

 

Yes, the Twins tying themselves long-term to vets in the rotation is a big problem going forward.  None of them are of the caliber that traditionally leads a team deep into the post season either.  This team needs to develop the young starters and hope one or two of them can.  It's on Ryan to figure a way out of this veteran mess.

[Mike Sixel]

 

Yes, the Twins tying themselves long-term to vets in the rotation is a big problem going forward.  None of them are of the caliber that traditionally leads a team deep into the post season either.  This team needs to develop the young starters and hope one or two of them can.  It's on Ryan to figure a way out of this veteran mess.

 

A mess he personally created.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

I feel like there's some cherry picking of stats...  Pelfrey's gone 7 innings or more in 9 of 20 starts this year.  What more do you want from a #5 starter?  May has gone 7 innings (never gotten more than 21 outs) in exactly 2 out of 15 starts this year and 0-10 last year. 

To be fair, May was injured in spring training, and had a bit on an absence before his first start (remember, he was sent to minor league camp to begin the season, then recalled to replace Nolasco I think).  So he was eased into things this year.

 

May has had a few outings that could have easily been longer if he had Pelfrey's leash.  He was removed from games where he has generally been effective with pitch counts in the 80's three times over June/July; Pelfrey has had no such games since early April, he has basically been allowed to throw 90+ pitches every game he's been reasonably effective.

 

May also had the one start I can recall where a Twins starter was removed prematurely due to injury and not performance (April 25 vs Seattle).

 

At the time of the decision, May was averaging 5.5 innings outside that injury start, and Pelfrey 5.7 innings.  The difference was less than two-thirds of an out.  Even with the injury start, the difference was 0.35 innings, or one out per start.

[KGB]

 

Yes, the Twins tying themselves long-term to vets in the rotation is a big problem going forward.  None of them are of the caliber that traditionally leads a team deep into the post season either.  This team needs to develop the young starters and hope one or two of them can.  It's on Ryan to figure a way out of this veteran mess.

I don't see any indication Ryan thinks this is a mess, which is a problem but a reality, because he not going anywhere.

[nicksaviking]

 

I don't see any indication Ryan thinks this is a mess, which is a problem but a reality, because he not going anywhere.

 

I also don't see any indication, but I would guess he's still pretty torn on the subject.  One one hand, history seems to show that Ryan much prefers veterans to young players.  On the other, he has always been averse to giving out long-term deals.  I wish his fear of the later would have stopped him from doing the former three times.

[Danchat]

 

You nailed it. Always love to spring pitchers on teams that have no clue about what they throw. Advantage pitcher. (Big caveat: assuming the moment isn't too big for them.)

 

Albers, yes. Plus, I always remember Matt Fox, September 2010 in the middle of a pennant race. 

Matt Fox pitched a spot start and went back to the minors... I wouldn't consider that as a hindrance to a pennant race.

[Jham]

 

His HR might stabalize, I don't know why his BB would though unless one was of the mind the BB is largely controled by luck.  I didn't see any indication that his control was an issue that was being masked by something else.

 

Look at his career marks and ask yourself if you had to bet with your own money whether his BB/9ip were going to go up, down, or stay where they are at for the season; what would you bet?

 

You could maybe argue that his K's should also go up based on his career marks, but I think pretending that May is suddenly one of the best in baseball at limiting walks and HR's is a stretch.  FIP mark what a pitcher has done so far.  There's no doubt he's pitched about as well as he possibly could.  My bet is that he couldn't keep it up.  It's fair to say he deserved the chance at that opportunity.  But it's equally fair to say that Pelfrey is having a career year, and May is more likely to help us in the pen than in the rotation as the pen and staff is currently constructed.  

 

[Jham]

 

To be fair, May was injured in spring training, and had a bit on an absence before his first start (remember, he was sent to minor league camp to begin the season, then recalled to replace Nolasco I think).  So he was eased into things this year.

 

May has had a few outings that could have easily been longer if he had Pelfrey's leash.  He was removed from games where he has generally been effective with pitch counts in the 80's three times over June/July; Pelfrey has had no such games since early April, he has basically been allowed to throw 90+ pitches every game he's been reasonably effective.

 

May also had the one start I can recall where a Twins starter was removed prematurely due to injury and not performance (April 25 vs Seattle).

 

At the time of the decision, May was averaging 5.5 innings outside that injury start, and Pelfrey 5.7 innings.  The difference was less than two-thirds of an out.  Even with the injury start, the difference was 0.35 innings, or one out per start.

 

The injury part is fair.  The getting pulled early part I don't buy nearly as much.  I remember a Nat. League start where he was pulled for a pinch hitter.  Other than that, he was pulled when his control started to leave him and he was starting to get hit more.  What would have happened if he were left in?  Roof cave in?  Wheels come off?  Second wind?  You could argue any of those options would be better than our pen, but compared with Pelfrey... it doesn't do much for me.  

Pelfrey also leads the league in double plays induced (partly defense, partly pitching) which is NOT factored into FIP, but does factor into a manager's willingness to stick with a guy and certainly adds to a pitcher's worth.  I would say Pelfrey's value this year has been HIGHER than his FIP suggests this year because of the double plays and because of his ability to save the pen and go deep in games.  These, again, are indicators of performance not measured by FIP.  

 

I'm not in love with Pelfrey.  I'm very skeptical of his ability to continue his success unless he finds his splitter again.  I just believe May helps us more out of the pen right now than getting through the opposing line up 2 and half times every 5th day.

 

[Blackjack]

 

Yes, the Twins tying themselves long-term to vets in the rotation is a big problem going forward.  None of them are of the caliber that traditionally leads a team deep into the post season either.  This team needs to develop the young starters and hope one or two of them can.  It's on Ryan to figure a way out of this veteran mess.

The biggest problem the Twins have had the last couple of years has been the starting pitching, signing some of those veterans starters has allowed them to be competitive and in the wild-card race - and given them some 'excess' pitching to work with. Can you ever have too much pitching??!!! Then they have taken one of those excess starters - May - and plugged him into the bull pen -- hopefully solving a big bullpen problem.  Now one of those young starters is getting a start -- and gaining some valuable experience.

 

Twins management isn't as dumb and incompetent as posters make them out to be. These are men that have been in baseball all their lives!!! Just because they're not doing what YOU think they should do doesn't make them stupid.  If they've have given away the farm at the trade deadline, no matter who they got, there would have been complaints. Its a no-win situation.