2016 Election Thread

[TheLeviathan]

 

We have plenty of lefties in this country, and Europe has plenty of its own problems. Hell Switzerland didn't give women the right to vote until the 70s. Europe gets 2 million mideast immigrants and throws a fit. Brexit was passed by majority vote. Quitaly and Grexit are on the table in Italy and Greece. We got 40 million illegals in the 00s and our reactions was, far from perfect, but not any worse I'd say.

The argument that our politics are any worse than theirs would be a lot more compelling if Europe were doing demonstrably better. They aren't.

 

Yeah, so much this.  I'm so sick of hearing what Europe does well.  They exported all their BS hundreds of years ago and now have a largely white, homogenous society and they are the model for the future?

 

Screw that noise.  I'm so tired of that talking point from the left.  There are things we can learn from them for sure, but the adoration for them is so overblown. 

 

As for the work issue, it's hard to plan for what technology will bring.  I don't have a problem with centering life around what we do as work.  I'd suggest, if that's a fear of yours, perhaps says more about you and your career than others.  I love going to work every day.  I grew up on a farm and my father got up every day thrilled to do that.  So I think the oversimplification about work is a mistake.  It gives purpose and fulfillment to many people.  For many it doesn't as well, I get that, but it's not a simple issue.

 

Plus, I really don't know if you can "plan" for technological innovation and the changing job landscape.  The rate of change in the field makes that incredibly difficult.  I worry if you just embrace the idea that "welp, we don't need jobs any more!", we'll make the movie Wall-E look like Nostradamus.

[Squirrel]

Do you think the U.S. as one country is sustainable in the future? Do you see a time when perhaps it breaks apart into regional entities?

[Brock Beauchamp]

I don't recall saying Europe was perfect nor do I feel we should model everything we do on their political systems.

 

There's a difference between acknowledging they're ahead of us in some ways (the fact many of their governments haven't stagnated is a good place to start) and saying we should emulate everything they do.

 

If you don't like "Europe", replace with "Canada".

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Europe gets 2 million mideast immigrants and throws a fit.

We get 10,000 and throw a bigger fit.

 

Again, Europe isn't perfect, far from it... But suggesting there are things we can learn from them isn't some form of heresy.

[TheLeviathan]

 

I don't recall saying Europe was perfect nor do I feel we should model everything we do on their political systems.

 

There's a difference between acknowledging they're ahead of us in some ways (the fact many of their governments haven't stagnated is a good place to start) and saying we should emulate everything they do.

 

If you don't like "Europe", replace with "Canada".

 

I was speaking more generally.  Bernie name drops Europe every six and a half seconds.

 

People seem to think we're like Western Europe, but it's only superficial.  There is no whiter place on the planet than Western Europe and as soon as diversity or some of the other issues we face every day become even a small issue they start to unravel.  

 

Our issues are unique, I'm ok learning from Europe, I'm just tired of hearing how they have it all figured out.  And that's largely a refrain the left is accustomed to making.  (The right thinks they have everythign screwed up, which is equally asinine)

[Willihammer]

 

We get 10,000 and throw a bigger fit.

 

Again, Europe isn't perfect, far from it... But suggesting there are things we can learn from them isn't some form of heresy.

For sure. The point I had in mind was this idea that if Trump is elected, moving to West Europe would somehow be an escape from white nationalism. I suspect you'd be sorely disappointed. The differences between Europe and the US are smaller than either place would like to believe IMO.

[Brock Beauchamp]

For sure. The point I had in mind was this idea that if Trump is elected, moving to West Europe would somehow be an escape from white nationalism. I suspect you'd be sorely disappointed. The differences between Europe and the US are smaller than either place would like to believe IMO.

Oh, I'm not naive enough to believe those places don't have a slew of their own issues but I'm exhausted by the way this country has drifted right in so many ways since Goldwater flipped the south.

 

It's hard to believe this country once declared war on poverty. Many of the ideas contained within were bad long-term strategies but there was a certain nobility in the attempt that we don't see today.

[nicksaviking]

 

There won't be many jobs in a generation or two....robots and computers will do almost all the work. Hell, we'll have self driving cars soon......Foxconn just replaced thousands of workers with bots. How long until computers are programming computers? this isn't going away.....Dune looks prescient....

 

Work, frankly, is an outdated concept, that we need to examine. Which party would even be willing to think about this here? Which would be willing to talk about it?

 

This nation is in serious trouble, due to its obsession that work is the meaning of life, and how we should pay for everything.

 

You don't get to the bottom of that problem until you start talking Socialism which can still get you lynched in some counties.

 

It sounds inevitable though, I don't think there really is any other end result of long term sustainability for our species without it. Either that or institutionalized cannibalism.

 

[gunnarthor]

 

Do you think the U.S. as one country is sustainable in the future? Do you see a time when perhaps it breaks apart into regional entities?

No.

[Badsmerf]

After working and bring in Europe the last 3 weeks (germany particular), there are done very obvious things they are doing much better than us. However, there are also things we do much better. Thing is, republicans are basically throwing up their hands, plugging their ears, and saying "lalalala" anytime a policy comparison is drawn to Europe.

 

Just because somebody presents an argument showing a single payer health system is viable, it doesn't also mean they are in favor of free college tuition. They are individual topics. Unfortunately, that is the direction the Republican party has been going when it comes to policy.

 

Let's not pretend that the democrats are perfect, and nobody here is saying they are. That party also has to pull their head out. To me their problem is more about message than vision for the future. I don't think Clinton is going to be successful in changing that.

[Vanimal46]

 

Do you think the U.S. as one country is sustainable in the future? Do you see a time when perhaps it breaks apart into regional entities?

Texas would jump all over that to become the Republic of Texas again. If that were the case, I'd have to drive as fast as I could out of the state before getting shot by Ranger Jimbo. 

[TheLeviathan]

 

Do you think the U.S. as one country is sustainable in the future? Do you see a time when perhaps it breaks apart into regional entities?

 

I think we're sustainable.  We're working out so many social and racial issues, moreso than the vast majority of countries on the planet.  No one has as much of a challenge and, when you consider that, we're doing pretty well.

 

Lots of room to do better, for sure, but we have to keep in mind the scope of the challenges we face as the most diverse, free, democratic society on earth.  It's no small feat that we don't have open war constantly, much less continuing to make progress.

 

I think we sell ourselves short a bit by holding ourselves to false ideals.

[Brock Beauchamp]

I think we're sustainable. We're working out so many social and racial issues, moreso than the vast majority of countries on the planet. No one has as much of a challenge and, when you consider that, we're doing pretty well.

 

Lots of room to do better, for sure, but we have to keep in mind the scope of the challenges we face as the most diverse, free, democratic society on earth. It's no small feat that we don't have open war constantly, much less continuing to make progress.

 

I think we sell ourselves short a bit by holding ourselves to false ideals.

Absolutely, and if this was a normal election, it'd be easier to take a republican victory.

 

If Mitt Romney was about to win a general election, I'd say "Damn it. I don't agree but at least he won't burn the place to the ground."

 

Trump? I honestly can't say that. And the fact people can't see it is so ****ing depressing.

[Badsmerf]

Brock, it's not that they don't see it, it's that they actually want it. Regular people are supporting trump because they think he'll actually change something. How, exactly, he is going to do that is beyond me, but that is the overwhelming poplar opinion.

 

These are the same people that believe our country is in terrible shape and can't do anything right. It is the same people that complain about government being unable to function yet still vote in politicians like Ted Cruz. It is the same people that actually think fox news us the only reliable source of information and the rest if the media lies.

 

This is the environment we live in. This is why we're having struggles.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Brock, it's not that they don't see it, it's that they actually want it. 

 

Right, they sort of want him to burn it to the ground.

[Mike Sixel]

 

Yeah, so much this.  I'm so sick of hearing what Europe does well.  They exported all their BS hundreds of years ago and now have a largely white, homogenous society and they are the model for the future?

 

Screw that noise.  I'm so tired of that talking point from the left.  There are things we can learn from them for sure, but the adoration for them is so overblown. 

 

As for the work issue, it's hard to plan for what technology will bring.  I don't have a problem with centering life around what we do as work.  I'd suggest, if that's a fear of yours, perhaps says more about you and your career than others.  I love going to work every day.  I grew up on a farm and my father got up every day thrilled to do that.  So I think the oversimplification about work is a mistake.  It gives purpose and fulfillment to many people.  For many it doesn't as well, I get that, but it's not a simple issue.

 

Plus, I really don't know if you can "plan" for technological innovation and the changing job landscape.  The rate of change in the field makes that incredibly difficult.  I worry if you just embrace the idea that "welp, we don't need jobs any more!", we'll make the movie Wall-E look like Nostradamus.

Bull...saying I should center my life around my career is bull. It assumes work is actually important, which it MIGHT be, but might not be either. But, hey, just dismiss this being about me and my career.

 

edit: you didn't exactly say that, but a lot of jobs are not going to exist. I have my kids investing in stocks for a reason.....

[jimmer]

Bull...saying I should center my life around my career is bull. I assumes work is actually important, which it MIGHT be, but might not be either. But, hey, just dismiss this being about me and my career.

I work to live not live to work :-)

[Craig Arko]

I'll just go back to my original retirement plan of writing trashy novels.

[Vanimal46]

 

I work to live not live to work :-)

Nailed it. Unfortunately there's a fundamental flaw at any company in the corporate world that we should be living to work instead of working to live.... There are sales managers at my company that do not have an off switch - sending out emails/meeting requests at 10:30 PM, on weekends, even when you're on vacation. Drives me bonkers. 

[Mike Sixel]

 

Nailed it. Unfortunately there's a fundamental flaw at any company in the corporate world that we should be living to work instead of working to live.... There are sales managers at my company that do not have an off switch - sending out emails/meeting requests at 10:30 PM, on weekends, even when you're on vacation. Drives me bonkers. 

 

I wonder how Europe's economy would fair if they weren't competing against us, people who have no idea how not to work....like, would it be a more even playing field if we only worked 35-40 hours per week? 

[TheLeviathan]

 

Bull...saying I should center my life around my career is bull. It assumes work is actually important, which it MIGHT be, but might not be either. But, hey, just dismiss this being about me and my career.

 

edit: you didn't exactly say that, but a lot of jobs are not going to exist. I have my kids investing in stocks for a reason.....

 

Except I said nothing like that.  I said it might say more about you.  (That's up to you to decide) But it's really no different than you making the assumption that people generally are miserable going to their job every day.  Many people love what they do.  Especially those of us that work with people.  I have no problem centering my life around my family and my career.  I love it.  You seem to be dismissing my point of view whereas I'm suggesting it isn't that easy. 

 

Also, I'd add that what we do for work has changed many times over the course of human history.  There might have been people during the industrial revolution making your argument as well.  We always sort of morph into what we need and the jobs come with it.  This could be different, but it's also very difficult to say with any certainty.  You seem to be stating it as a certainty and I just don't agree with that.

[Vanimal46]

 

I wonder how Europe's economy would fair if they weren't competing against us, people who have no idea how not to work....like, would it be a more even playing field if we only worked 35-40 hours per week? 

Maybe... But I wouldn't mind finding out. Most every networking/sales event I attend over the year has a similar joke... "Who here works a 40 hour work week?" Followed up by no hands raised and a hearty/forced laugh. Why are we made to feel guilty about taking time off? Or only working 40 hours a week?  

[jimmer]

I wonder how Europe's economy would fair if they weren't competing against us, people who have no idea how not to work....like, would it be a more even playing field if we only worked 35-40 hours per week?

when i was in cyprus, during exceptionally beautiful days, it would not surprise me to go to a store at 2 pm and see a sign that said, 'closed, gone to the beach. Be back sometime' at first, it frustrated me, then i looked at it differently and loved the idea a business owner would do that.

[jimmer]

Maybe... But I wouldn't mind finding out. Most every networking/sales event I attend over the year has a similar joke... "Who here works a 40 hour work week?" Followed up by no hands raised and a hearty/forced laugh. Why are we made to feel guilty about taking time off? Or only working 40 hours a week?

i work zero hours overtime. I cant unless there is a huge project and then the boss needs permission to offer overtime which we can turn down.

[gunnarthor]

 

Absolutely, and if this was a normal election, it'd be easier to take a republican victory.

If Mitt Romney was about to win a general election, I'd say "Damn it. I don't agree but at least he won't burn the place to the ground."

Trump? I honestly can't say that. And the fact people can't see it is so ****ing depressing.

In all honesty, how to you think Trump will burn this place to the ground?  He's said some stupid things but he's running for President, not emperor.  What exactly do you think will happen under a Trump Presidency?

Personally, I think he won't do much and let Pence have considerable say.  He'll probably nominate a right wing hack to the court but Congress will still be strongly divided so not much gets done.  He'll probably try and make himself richer and might break a law or two to do it but other than that, I think a Trump Presidency would be a whole lot of nothing.

[Mike Sixel]

 

Except I said nothing like that.  I said it might say more about you.  (That's up to you to decide) But it's really no different than you making the assumption that people generally are miserable going to their job every day.  Many people love what they do.  Especially those of us that work with people.  I have no problem centering my life around my family and my career.  I love it.  You seem to be dismissing my point of view whereas I'm suggesting it isn't that easy. 

 

Also, I'd add that what we do for work has changed many times over the course of human history.  There might have been people during the industrial revolution making your argument as well.  We always sort of morph into what we need and the jobs come with it.  This could be different, but it's also very difficult to say with any certainty.  You seem to be stating it as a certainty and I just don't agree with that.

 

I never said that, nor implied it....you are the one that made it about me. I never said people didn't like it, I said it was likely going away, and that we shouldn't assume work is important. I made the exact opposite argument .... that we shouldn't assume it is or is not.

 

We've never had robots and computers that can literally do everything we can do before. At a minimum, we should discuss this, and plan for it....which was my whole point all along.

[Mike Sixel]

It is possible you took:

 

work is an outdated concept...

 

 

to be about work, not work as the way we make money to live. That was what I was trying to say. Tying our ability to be alive to work is probably not a good idea going forward.

[Vanimal46]

 

i work zero hours overtime. I cant unless there is a huge project and then the boss needs permission to offer overtime which we can turn down.

That's the beauty of the public sector vs. the private sector... I'm making the assumption you're working in a government related organization. 

[TheLeviathan]

 

It is possible you took:

 

work is an outdated concept...

 

 

to be about work, not work as the way we make money to live. That was what I was trying to say. Tying our ability to be alive to work is probably not a good idea going forward.

 

That's exactly what I was taking from that.  Your first post was more assertive in my view.  

 

I would just suggest that we thought machinery would eliminate the factory several generations ago and we're still here.  Having the conversation about what it might look like is important, but it's so difficult to actually plan for it.

 

And there will always be a sizable workforce needed just to service each other.  At least for a long, long time yet.

[jimmer]

That's the beauty of the public sector vs. the private sector... I'm making the assumption you're working in a government related organization.

I work for the Defense Logistics Agency.

 

During a two week pay period, I work 4 9s then an 8 the first week, followed by working 4 9s the next week and getting Friday off. I also get one hour of gym time 3 days a week (6 hours a pay period). Basicslly, except thursday, i leave work at 2:30