2016 Election Thread

Vanimal46 · November 2, 2016

Honest question: Has this country ever been so divided when it comes to an election in your lifetime? This is the 3rd election I've had the opportunity to vote for, and the gap between the parties is so extreme that there doesn't appear to be any middle ground this year.

Mike Sixel · November 2, 2016

Honest question: Has this country ever been so divided when it comes to an election in your lifetime? This is the 3rd election I've had the opportunity to vote for, and the gap between the parties is so extreme that there doesn't appear to be any middle ground this year.

Non - partisan research shows the GOP is moving further and further from the center, while most of the Dems are moving more to the center.....so, ya, probably true.

I feel we are back about 200 years ago, when this kind of stuff was said all the time. You know, back before we were all highly educated....sigh.

gunnarthor · November 2, 2016

Honest question: Has this country ever been so divided when it comes to an election in your lifetime? This is the 3rd election I've had the opportunity to vote for, and the gap between the parties is so extreme that there doesn't appear to be any middle ground this year.

I'm not old enough but the late 60s/early70s were pretty divisive with the war and Watergate. That's probably the most recent period - and there were a lot of radical bombings in this time which, if they happened now, would destroy the internet and absolutely lead to Boston Bomber style policing in every major city.. If you go back to the period right after WWI there was a similar economic divide and immigrant blaming which lead to the Palmer raids and other major events.

Craig Arko · November 2, 2016

Honest question: Has this country ever been so divided when it comes to an election in your lifetime? This is the 3rd election I've had the opportunity to vote for, and the gap between the parties is so extreme that there doesn't appear to be any middle ground this year.

Things were pretty bitter during the Vietnam era. There was no social media around to keep it in your face every second of every day.

Craig Arko · November 2, 2016

I'm not old enough but the late 60s/early70s were pretty divisive with the war and Watergate. That's probably the most recent period - and there were a lot of radical bombings in this time which, if they happened now, would destroy the internet and absolutely lead to Boston Bomber style policing in every major city.. If you go back to the period right after WWI there was a similar economic divide and immigrant blaming which lead to the Palmer raids and other major events.

Oh, the Watergate hearings were quite something. I'll never forget Sam Ervin and Howard Baker.

TheLeviathan · November 2, 2016

I'm not old enough but the late 60s/early70s were pretty divisive with the war and Watergate. That's probably the most recent period - and there were a lot of radical bombings in this time which, if they happened now, would destroy the internet and absolutely lead to Boston Bomber style policing in every major city.. If you go back to the period right after WWI there was a similar economic divide and immigrant blaming which lead to the Palmer raids and other major events.

The other angle with social media is that it's much easier to find someone that says what you want to hear. In those days your news sources and opinions were pretty narrow. Now you can find just about any whack job you want.

I would think that would lead to more division. People are no longer seeking out a range of ideas, but only to confirm their own.

Vanimal46 · November 2, 2016

Things were pretty bitter during the Vietnam era. There was no social media around to keep it in your face every second of every day.

I've got to imagine social media is a huge factor why we're all getting tired of this... It's nearly impossible to escape it. And as Levi just touched on, there are message boards all over the internet to find your version of what's right and who the idiots are in this country.

Craig Arko · November 2, 2016

I've got to imagine social media is a huge factor why we're all getting tired of this... It's nearly impossible to escape it. And as Levi just touched on, there are message boards all over the internet to find your version of what's right and who the idiots are in this country.

In the end, I think we've all been the idiots at one time or another.

stringer bell · November 2, 2016

Non - partisan research shows the GOP is moving further and further from the center, while most of the Dems are moving more to the center.....so, ya, probably true.

I feel we are back about 200 years ago, when this kind of stuff was said all the time. You know, back before we were all highly educated....sigh.

From what I've read, the story is that Democrats are moving left, but at a far slower rate than Republicans are moving right.

Not the perfect segue, but IMHO the ACA could be salvaged, but Republicans will have none of it. It's not quite "segregation now, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever" but there is no compromise that Republicans will accept when it comes to the law. In general Republicans have accepted zero compromises unless faced with government shutdown.

I do wonder if Clinton is elected if she can garner some compromise to improve the ACA. I am growing increasingly pessimistic that I will find out.

Squirrel · November 2, 2016

The other angle with social media is that it's much easier to find someone that says what you want to hear. In those days your news sources and opinions were pretty narrow. Now you can find just about any whack job you want.

I would think that would lead to more division. People are no longer seeking out a range of ideas, but only to confirm their own.

I agree. But it's even more than that. We have developed this WIN WIN WIN attitude at the expense of constructive thought, reasoning and compromise which creates an even worse divisiveness. I don't know for sure if things are truly more divided now than at other times, but it certainly feels like it. Maybe because there wasn't just 'one big thing' that people rallied around like the Vietnam War, it's a host of things and this stronger than ever pervasiveness must win at all costs without compromise is what scares me.

Squirrel · November 2, 2016

From what I've read, the story is that Democrats are moving left, but at a far slower rate than Republicans are moving right.

Not the perfect segue, but IMHO the ACA could be salvaged, but Republicans will have none of it. It's not quite "segregation now, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever" but there is no compromise that Republicans will accept when it comes to the law. In general Republicans have accepted zero compromises unless faced with government shutdown.

I do wonder if Clinton is elected if she can garner some compromise to improve the ACA. I am growing increasingly pessimistic that I will find out.

I honestly think if we can come to a compromise she will be the one to do it. But the if in there is pretty big. Too many equate compromise with losing and losing is unacceptable with those same too many.

USAFChief · November 2, 2016

For me, it's mostly white men, but yes, in general.

This is not helpful, Chi.

And I'm on your side.

Squirrel · November 2, 2016

This is not helpful, Chi.
And I'm on your side.

As I said, it's not a personal indictment, but sorry to say, there is a hell of a lot of truth in it.

TheLeviathan · November 2, 2016

As I said, it's not a personal indictment, but sorry to say, there is a hell of a lot of truth in it.

There can be truth in those statements and they can still be unhelpful. Ruralites can say it's all about urbanites. Blacks can drop the "men" from your comment and say the same. Poor can say it about rich. Rich about poor.

It's deliberately divisive language meant to exclude yourself from the problem and put it on other people. Which is one of the central tenants of that "win win win" phenomenon you were talking about. ("It's not MY side, we got this! It's THOSE guys")

And that's coming from someone that doesn't mind generalizing. I think it's necessary much to the chagrin of the left. But I'd just suggest that your comment is more reflective of the problem than a course to a solution.

Squirrel · November 2, 2016

There can be truth in those statements and they can still be unhelpful. Ruralites can say it's all about urbanites. Blacks can drop the "men" from your comment and say the same. Poor can say it about rich. Rich about poor.

It's deliberately divisive language meant to exclude yourself from the problem and put it on other people. Which is one of the central tenants of that "win win win" phenomenon you were talking about. ("It's not MY side, we got this! It's THOSE guys")

And that's coming from someone that doesn't mind generalizing. I think it's necessary much to the chagrin of the left. But I'd just suggest that your comment is more reflective of the problem than a course to a solution.

If you go back to where this statement stemmed from, it was about being really tired of this ****. And don't lecture me as if I don't know a damned thing. It gets really annoying. You likely don't even realize how dismissive you sometimes are.

TheLeviathan · November 2, 2016

If you go back to where this statement stemmed from, it was about being really tired of this ****.

So is Bill Maher when he bashes Trump voters and then, a few minutes later, asks "Why can't we win these 20 states that always go red?"

Why? Why can't we bridge those gaps? Close some of that divide that is causing your frustration? Because we're content to say "I'm sick of X. They're the problem" As if that ends the conversation.

Well, it does do that. You make it clear whoever X is should shut up and agree with you and that's the end of the discussion. But ending the conversation shouldn't be the goal.

Squirrel · November 2, 2016

So is Bill Maher when he bashes Trump voters and then, a few minutes later, asks "Why can't we win these 20 states that always go red?"

Why? Why can't we bridge those gaps? Close some of that divide that is causing your frustration? Because we're content to say "I'm sick of X. They're the problem" As if that ends the conversation.

Well, it does do that. You make it clear whoever X is should shut up and agree with you and that's the end of the discussion. But ending the conversation shouldn't be the goal.

Did I end the conversation? No. And I don't think saying I'm tired is ending anything either. I have brought up these issues ... many times, MANY times on here ... and the response I got, especially from you, was it's not a thing. And onto the next more important thing. Every time I brought up sexism in this campaign, you more than anyone else shut down the conversation. Every time I bring up the double standard issue, it was always, 'I don't think it is. Next!' So when I suggested to look a mirror to another poster, I meant it. For all of us. So sorry you are offended with my anger and my exhaustion, but I am ... both.

TheLeviathan · November 2, 2016

Did I end the conversation? No. And I don't think saying I'm tired is ending anything either. I have brought up these issues ... many times, MANY times on here ... and the response I got, especially from you, was it's not a thing. And onto the next more important thing. Every time I brought up sexism in this campaign, you more than anyone else shut down the conversation. Every time I bring up the double standard issue, it was always, 'I don't think it is. Next!' So when I suggested to look a mirror to another poster, I meant it. For all of us. So sorry you are offended with my anger and my exhaustion, but I am ... both.

No you did. You've made it clear I'm not going to get anywhere.

Maybe that's on me for not being clear, i don't know. But you aren't seeing - at all - what I'm saying. You're doubling and tripling down on the opposite.

Squirrel · November 2, 2016

And further, when one is dismissed as often as I have been on here, and elsewhere, when I am willing to talk, but no one else is, then this is how it is. No one hears. Don't you think that perhaps I can relate a little to the plight of many out there in ways you can't? It's great to have intelligent conversation here, but what are you doing about it out there? So don't belittle me and complain that I'm shutting down the conversation when you and others have shut it down long ago.

Mike Sixel · November 2, 2016

If you go back to where this statement stemmed from, it was about being really tired of this ****. And don't lecture me as if I don't know a damned thing. It gets really annoying. You likely don't even realize how dismissive you sometimes are.

I gotta say, I agree with the dismissive part a lot. A whole lot.

TheLeviathan · November 2, 2016

And further, when one is dismissed as often as I have been on here, and elsewhere, when I am willing to talk, but no one else is, then this is how it is. No one hears. Don't you think that perhaps I can relate a little to the plight of many out there in ways you can't? It's great to have intelligent conversation here, but what are you doing about it out there? So don't belittle me and complain that I'm shutting down the conversation when you and others have shut it down long ago.

I'm sure we all have ways we can relate to groups of people differently than each other. I've been in environments no one here would wish upon their worst enemy for no other reason than I enjoy helping people. So let's not do that.

Are my arguments often dismissive? Yup, they are. It's a fault of mine for sure. I am just fully aware of it and i don't pretend otherwise. I know it isn't particularly helpful either. But it is part of the problem and something I do try to work at. I don't pretend otherwise.

You seem to be wrapping yourself in it without realizing it.

PseudoSABR · November 2, 2016

I'm sick of white guys complaining about generalization that harm their sub group. Sure it's a generalization, but claiming the higher ground on the politically correct argument, just deflects from the basis of someone's comment, that a lot of white guys are annoyingly resistant to addressing anything about themselves or their sub group.

And what's rich is the same people who bitch and moan about too much political correctness are the ones who immediately pull out the politically correct card when the white race or men get invoked. Give me a break.

(I mean how many non-white guys are even present as a part of this discussion? That fact significantly narrows the real-world scope of our group think, and probably reinforces some of the blindness to white-male privilege.)

TheLeviathan · November 2, 2016

I'm sick of white guys complaining about generalization that harm their sub group. Sure it's a generalization, and but claiming the higher ground on the politically correct argument, just deflects from the basis of someone's comment, that a lot of white guys are annoyingly resistant to addressing anything about themselves or their sub group.

And what's rich is the same people who bitch and moan about too much political correctness are the ones who immediately pull out the politically correct card when the white race or men get invoked. Give me a break.

Doesn't that work in reverse? The same people who bitch about not generalizing are the first ones to do it and think it's perfectly ok?

Look, rich white men have done lots of a-hole things for a long time. We can all agree on that. But everyone wants to play by their own rules. The Alt-right, cry baby liberal Millenials, etc. The problem is getting worse becaue of this, not better.

USAFChief · November 2, 2016

I'm sick of white guys complaining about generalization that harm their sub group. Sure it's a generalization, but claiming the higher ground on the politically correct argument, just deflects from the basis of someone's comment, that a lot of white guys are annoyingly resistant to addressing anything about themselves or their sub group.

And what's rich is the same people who bitch and moan about too much political correctness are the ones who immediately pull out the politically correct card when the white race or men get invoked. Give me a break.

(I mean how many non-white guys are even present as a part of this discussion? That fact significantly narrows the real-world scope of our group think, and probably reinforces some of the blindness to white-male privilege.)

Horse****.

"White males are X" is different than "black males are Y"?

How?

Squirrel · November 2, 2016

I'm sure we all have ways we can relate to groups of people differently than each other. I've been in environments no one here would wish upon their worst enemy for no other reason than I enjoy helping people. So let's not do that.

Are my arguments often dismissive? Yup, they are. It's a fault of mine for sure. I am just fully aware of it and i don't pretend otherwise. I know it isn't particularly helpful either. But it is part of the problem and something I do try to work at. I don't pretend otherwise.

You seem to be wrapping yourself in it without realizing it.

I'm sorry. I've known you long enough to know you do mean well. As I said ,.. I am REALLY tired. A lifetime of tired coming to a head. It's easy for all of us to have our nice, intelligent conversations, identifying the problems of the world, but the reality is really quite basic, and the needs quite basic, yet day after day we face the same things. I've often said 'the more things change the more they stay the same' and that's how it feels to me, and I'm sure how it feels to many. For whatever progress on any front we think we've made, it doesn't feel like it at the most basic, day to day level.

Craig Arko · November 2, 2016

PseudoSABR · November 2, 2016

Horse****.

"White males are X" is different than "black males are Y"?

How?

One group is dominant, privileged, and makes up the majority of decision-making offices. The other group is not.

I don't get at all offended, when someone says "White males are blind to their privilege, and defensive when that privilege is invoked by non-white males" even though it doesn't totally square with my experience as a white man. Because I'm not part of minority or marginalized subgroup, generalization don't damage me in the same way, because I still have the same white-male-privilege.

What sucks is that we don't even get to talk about how white-males operate as a group without people decrying political correctness. The real world experience of an actual non white male are being dismissed in this thread, because she made a generalization. If you don't see the problem than in that, you're part of that problem.

And FTR, saying that someone is tired of white men in context of this election, is not at all saying the same thing as all white men are contemptible. It's simply the case that a great majority of the people saying contemptible things are white men.

No one's actually implying that you, or Levi, or me, or any other white guy here is the problem, but white men are the problem. Not all white men, but white men make up the people that are absolutely awful to listen to in this election.

TheLeviathan · November 2, 2016

I'm sorry. I've known you long enough to know you do mean well. As I said ,.. I am REALLY tired. A lifetime of tired coming to a head. It's easy for all of us to have our nice, intelligent conversations, identifying the problems of the world, but the reality is really quite basic, and the needs quite basic, yet day after day we face the same things. I've often said 'the more things change the more they stay the same' and that's how it feels to me, and I'm sure how it feels to many. For whatever progress on any front we think we've made, it doesn't feel like it at the most basic, day to day level.

I sympathize with that view. Though I might argue thingss are getting worse on divisive language I think. You don't need to apologize, I get where you were going and I get that we're all at a heightened state of angst over all this.

Less than a week and then we can move on to a new list of things to be pissed about.

Craig Arko · November 2, 2016

No one's actually implying that you, or Levi, or me, or any other white guy here is the problem, but white men are the problem. Not all white men, but white men make up the people that are absolutely awful to listen to in this election.

I have no problem saying: I am part of the problem.

I also have no problem saying: I am part of the solution.

Mike Sixel · November 2, 2016

I sympathize with that view. Though I might argue thingss are getting worse on divisive language I think. You don't need to apologize, I get where you were going and I get that we're all at a heightened state of angst over all this.

Less than a week and then we can move on to a new list of things to be pissed about.

Maybe we should meditate instead, and not get pissed....but I guess that depends on the outcome...