2016 Election Thread

[twinsnorth49]

To say it yet again, that's not really what happened this election.

Bull****.

 

If you want to send a message to the establishment that enough is enough, you don't do it with someone like Trump.

 

There might be a surging groundswell of dissatisfaction amongst middle class Americans but if this is who they're willing to annoint as their champion then I think it speaks to more than just that.

 

This whole thing may have not been entirely about gender inequality but if you don't think for a second Hillary was held to a different standard for her transgressions than a male counterpart, then look no further than the who they chose instead of her.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Bull****.

If you want to send a message to the establishment that enough is enough, you don't do it with someone like Trump.

There might be a surging groundswell of dissatisfaction amongst middle class Americans but if this is who they're willing to annoint as their champion then I think it speaks to more than just that.

This whole thing may have not been entirely about gender inequality but if you don't think for a second Hillary was held to a different standard for her transgressions than a male counterpart, then look no further than the who they chose instead of her.

 

Sorry, I think this is the wrong take away.  The messenger need not embody the message.   I'd argue this isn't even the first messenger.  Obama had a lot of the same sentiments, just with a much more capable and respectable person behind them.

 

And the same voters that propelled Trump were pushing for a Bernie nomination, they just had the very thing the message is REALLY about prove to them that they're right.  That the system is rigged.  That their voice isn't heard.  That their cares and fears and worries are not being listened to.  That it's all one big s*#^show.

 

People want to lob a molotov cocktail into the political establishment and they found the Orange Menace as their only option to do so.  Are their elements of misogyny, hate, fear, racism, and all of that mixed in?  Sure, opportunists will find these sorts of things to attach themselves to, but that isn't the central issue here.

 

If we miss that, we risk more of this.  I guarantee you the absolute worst thing we can do in the wake of this is say "oh...it's because Obama was black" or "Oh...it's because Hillary was a woman"

 

That.  Isn't.  It.  Months ago when this happened with Brexit I was telling this board that they shouldn't be shocked if the exact same thing happened here with Trump. There is a great unrest about political establishments in much of the Western World that is reaching a breaking point.  If we don't start to ease that unrest by actually listening and trying to help those affected....we'll keep getting more of the same.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Don't leave out the fact that while they were laughing at Trump, they were also giving him thousands of hours of free air time to spew his vitriol at America.

Also don't leave out the fact that promoting Trump and giving him free air time, turns out, was actually Clinton's strategy from the start.

[USAFChief]

I'm bitterly disappointed. But some of you here sound as deranged as the wingnuts who predicted the end of the world 8 years ago.

 

The EPA isn't going away, and frankly might need a recalibration anyway. There will still be national parks. The KKK won't be invited to the White House, and your neighbors didnt suddenly become racists.

 

Focus. The Democratic nominee wasn't strong enough to beat Donald Trump. The Democratic message couldn't make headway on taking back congress. Get to work making the necessary changes to get votes. Start by giving up the idea that Democrats have some birthright to power, and a monopoly on the moral high ground.

 

I made the decision to vote for Clinton, but I hated doing it, and I have a hard time being outraged at those who held their nose and pulled the other lever.

 

Edited to add: in the interests of accuracy of source, it should be noted I've been completely wrong about this election from the start. I'm the dummy who was convinced Trump wouldn't be the R nominee, and was sure of a Clinton win right up until Florida fell.

[nicksaviking]

 

If we miss that, we risk more of this.  I guarantee you the absolute worst thing we can do in the wake of this is say "oh...it's because Obama was black" or "Oh...it's because Hillary was a woman"

 

That.  Isn't.  It.  Months ago when this happened with Brexit I was telling this board that they shouldn't be shocked if the exact same thing happened here with Trump. There is a great unrest about political establishments in much of the Western World that is reaching a breaking point.  If we don't start to ease that unrest by actually listening and trying to help those affected....we'll keep getting more of the same.

I agree that this was a large part of his voting bloc, but we can't pretend that he didn't still need the bigots and the mysoginists to win, he wasn't going to win with "anti-establishment" votes alone.

 

Silver lining: Based on the fact that the polls were so off, there were almost certainly a ton of people who voted Trump but were too ashamed to even admit it to pollsters. Those people can be flipped again if/when Trump lets them down.

[Vanimal46]

I'm bitterly disappointed. But some of you here sound as deranged as the wingnuts who predicted the end of the world 8 years ago.

 

The EPA isn't going away, and frankly might need a recalibration anyway. There will still be national parks. The KKK won't be invited to the White House, and your neighbors didnt suddenly become racists.

 

Focus. The Democratic nominee wasn't strong enough to beat Donald Trump. The Democratic message couldn't make headway on taking back congress. Get to work making the necessary changes to get votes. Start by giving up the idea that Democrats have some birthright to power, and a monopoly on the moral high ground.

 

I made the decision to vote for Clinton, but I hated doing it, and I have a hard time being outraged at those who held their nose and pulled the other lever.

Concur. Well said, Chief. The Democrats cleared a path for Hillary starting back in 2008 with no real back up plan... It's the equivalent of the Twins doing nothing with their bullpen and expecting Burdi, Reed, and the whole batch of awesome RP prospects to come up and succeed.

[TheLeviathan]

 

I agree that this was a large part of his voting bloc, but we can't pretend that he didn't still need the bigots and the mysoginists to win, he wasn't going to win with "anti-establishment" votes alone.

Silver lining: Based on the fact that the polls were so off, there were almost certainly a ton of people who voted Trump but were too ashamed to even admit it to pollsters. Those people can be flipped again if/when Trump lets them down.

 

My response to that would be.....who were they voting for in the past?  I doubt most of those same people suddenly went Republican.  Was it a very, very minor factor?  Maybe.  I'm not even willing to go past that.  

 

And your second point is the salient one.  People didn't vote in Trump.  That's why nothing stuck.  They were voting for what he represented: a giant flaming middle finger at how politics work.  The more inappropriate, stupid, inept, and unqualified he was, the more it made that message effective.  People were ashamed of who was representing their message this time around, but the message was more important.

 

And still we have some in here pretending this was fueled by racism, misogyny, and the KKK.  If you think that, you should strongly think about how much you're perpetuating the problem.

 

Chief said it well, the Dems got whooped on every level of this election.  It wasn't just their standard bearer that failed them: their message failed them.  And I'm pleading with those of you that are tried and true Dems and liberals to take away from this something that would actually help us all - look in the mirror.  Get your *@%^ right with this message.  Give us at least one party we can root for.  Don't go Tea Party on us and blame some conspiracy or easy excuse.  Fix your @*%^ so next time some Orange Menace won't be able to beat you.

 

Or get out of the way and let a third party try.  Whichever.  Just don't replicate the double down on the Tea Party like the other side did.

[Mike Sixel]

 

I'm bitterly disappointed. But some of you here sound as deranged as the wingnuts who predicted the end of the world 8 years ago.

The EPA isn't going away, and frankly might need a recalibration anyway. There will still be national parks. The KKK won't be invited to the White House, and your neighbors didnt suddenly become racists.

Focus. The Democratic nominee wasn't strong enough to beat Donald Trump. The Democratic message couldn't make headway on taking back congress. Get to work making the necessary changes to get votes. Start by giving up the idea that Democrats have some birthright to power, and a monopoly on the moral high ground.

I made the decision to vote for Clinton, but I hated doing it, and I have a hard time being outraged at those who held their nose and pulled the other lever.

 

Many of my neighbors have been racists for years. Your neighbors too. Let's not deny racism is an issue in this country, please. That would be ridiculously naive.

 

As for the EPA......wanna bet on whether pollution is worse in 4 years?

 

It's right in the GOP platform, to undo much of the national park spending, and to get rid of many public lands. If you lived out West, you'd hear the voices loudly and clearly. Wanna bet on the shape of public lands in 4 years?

 

The GOP has full control of the federal government, and most of the states. Anyone that thinks LGBQT rights, or reproductive rights, or education isn't at risk, well, you are, imo, wrong.

[Craig Arko]

 

Many of my neighbors have been racists for years. Your neighbors too. Let's not deny racism is an issue in this country, please. That would be ridiculously naive.

 

As for the EPA......wanna bet on whether pollution is worse in 4 years?

 

It's right in the GOP platform, to undo much of the national park spending, and to get rid of many public lands. If you lived out West, you'd hear the voices loudly and clearly. Wanna bet on the shape of public lands in 4 years?

 

The GOP has full control of the federal government, and most of the states. Anyone that thinks LGBQT rights, or reproductive rights, or education isn't at risk, well, you are, imo, wrong.

This is what happens when the actual issues become casualties during a campaign.

[twinsnorth49]

I'm not about to ignore that there was a lot of misogyny and racism still attached to this from my viewpoint. I am however open to the belief that this wasn't about voting for Trump but rather more about voting against the establishment and a change in direction.

 

That being said the messenger does matter in this case, vile people of Trumps ilk have no business being the catalyst for any change. Whether they like it or not, he is now the vessel by which it will be judged. Timing is everything when it comes to making real change, this wasn't the time, I don't believe for a minute this will change anything. In fact, I believe it will have the opposite effect and only deepen the rancour that currently exists.

 

Make America great again.

 

What a laugh.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

 

Bull****.

If you want to send a message to the establishment that enough is enough, you don't do it with someone like Trump.

There might be a surging groundswell of dissatisfaction amongst middle class Americans but if this is who they're willing to annoint as their champion then I think it speaks to more than just that.

This whole thing may have not been entirely about gender inequality but if you don't think for a second Hillary was held to a different standard for her transgressions than a male counterpart, then look no further than the who they chose instead of her.

I do sympathize. Keep in mind that Trump was the only candidate the voters had in this election to send that message. The DNC actively worked to shut Sanders out of it, and plenty of women supported Sanders over Clinton. 

[Mike Sixel]

Let's not forget, they voted in teh same governors, state houses, and congress......where is this mythical change, exactly?

 

BS they want change. They wanted some kind of simple answer to complex, generational problems. Good luck with that.

[DaveW]

They won't repeal the LGBTQ stuff, trump is pretty socially liberal, ditto with abortion and that as well. He basically lied to the far right religious to get their votes. The EPA stuff is a concern, but clean energy is already on it's way anyways, he also says he will fund NASA which is good.

 

It's not all doom and gloom, it sucks he won, but let's spare the dramatics just a tad.

[Mike Sixel]

 

They won't repeal the LGBTQ stuff, trump is pretty socially liberal, ditto with abortion and that as well. He basically lied to the far right religious to get their votes. The EPA stuff is a concern, but clean energy is already on it's way anyways, he also says he will fund NASA which is good.

It's not all doom and gloom, it sucks he won, but let's spare the dramatics just a tad.

 

They've already said today they would be doing that as one of the first things they do...

 

Hope to be wrong....but he's one man. The entire GOP is in charge of about 70% of our land/population right now. The states will be rolling back LGBQT rights. 

[Craig Arko]

The bottom line is ulitmately... the bottom line. People voted this way because they believe a few more pieces of silver will turn up in their pockets.

 

Because trickle-down economics.

 

Good luck with that.

[Mike Sixel]

 

They won't repeal the LGBTQ stuff, trump is pretty socially liberal, ditto with abortion and that as well. He basically lied to the far right religious to get their votes. The EPA stuff is a concern, but clean energy is already on it's way anyways, he also says he will fund NASA which is good.

It's not all doom and gloom, it sucks he won, but let's spare the dramatics just a tad.

 

to be clear, all this, and nothing actually changes? That's your position? I doubt it......

 

he doesn't get to fund NASA, we are counting on Paul Ryan to do that...

[USAFChief]

Many of my neighbors have been racists for years. Your neighbors too. Let's not deny racism is an issue in this country, please. That would be ridiculously naive.

 

As for the EPA......wanna bet on whether pollution is worse in 4 years?

 

It's right in the GOP platform, to undo much of the national park spending, and to get rid of many public lands. If you lived out West, you'd hear the voices loudly and clearly. Wanna bet on the shape of public lands in 4 years?

 

The GOP has full control of the federal government, and most of the states. Anyone that thinks LGBQT rights, or reproductive rights, or education isn't at risk, well, you are, imo, wrong.

We'll have to disagree, Mike. I don't know your neighbors, but I don't believe "many of mine" are racists.

 

And I DO live out west.

[Mike Sixel]

Many was the wrong word....a few is a better word.

 

And you know that isn't the point......to deny racism exists, and is part of this, is just foolhardy. People that feel that way feel vindicated today, and are "hearing" that they aren't wrong today. Right or wrong, that is message received....that's how communications works.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Let's not forget, they voted in teh same governors, state houses, and congress......where is this mythical change, exactly?

 

BS they want change. They wanted some kind of simple answer to complex, generational problems. Good luck with that.

 

Since when did an angry, visceral response have to look like something from Dr. Moriarty?  

 

We've been voting for change now for 12 years, flipping back and forth trying to express our frustration.  I don't think Trump is the end of that, but he was the centerpiece of it in this election.  People wanted to just muck stuff up and he was the guy they were allowed to do it through.

[TheLeviathan]

Also, it should be clear: of course racism still exists.  Of course it was a healthy part of this election, but the motivating emotional force behind Trump's win?

 

No.  That's looking to keep your moral high ground so you don't have to look in the mirror.

 

Trump didn't win because America is full of racists.  Trump won because people can't figure out how to have common ground or see how their struggles are shared.  You don't solve that discord by running around afterwards saying "Well shoot!  If not for the racists...."  That's passing off the problems the Dems and their message had on an easy scape goat.

[Craig Arko]

Here you go: instant-runoff voting. A very fine place to start.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instant-runoff_voting

 

[biggentleben]

 

No, not Trump, but Pence does fit that mold. He's the next step and a heartbeat away.

 

Heartbeat, Trump indictment, Trump death (he will be the oldest inaugurated president in history), etc....and that's even more scary to me.

[Mike Sixel]

Not sure where I said it was the driving force, I said those people are hearing vindication today....let's read what I actually type.....

[biggentleben]

 

The Republicans were in bad shape a few years ago too, they found creative ways.  The Dems will have to as well.

 

The only thing they can obstruct (thankfully) is the deluge of constitutional changes that Trump had in his "first 100 days" plans.

[Mike Sixel]

It is pretty simple, imo.

 

the way of life many outside the big cities used to live is dying off. Neither party has a plan for that, because it requires, you know, admitting the world is changing and complex  changes need to happen.

 

Instead of voting for real change, they voted, imo, for the party that promised to go backward in time to a 1950s that never really existed.

 

I don't think it is much more complex than this. A yearning for avoiding loss, a loss that is inevitable, frankly. And a party willing to lie to get power, and another party with no plan at all (and is also full of liars).

 

The irony is that it was Reagan and his revolution that removed all our unions and others that actually protected workers from having any power, and we just put his party (even more backward looking) in virtual full control of the federal government and 2/3 of the state governments.

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

You may find it funny but there are literally millions of Americans who are scared ****less that open season has been declared on their existence.

 

Personally, I don't find that that least bit ****ing funny.

 

Heh...  I was scared ****less that one of Trump or Hillary was going to win.  I came to peace with that long ago.  We're doomed, and it will be that way until America figures out that they need to stop voting for crap candidates like Trump and Hillary.

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

Neat

The reality is it's nearly impossible for one party to win the White House for 12 straight years.

Hillary won the popular vote, but trump got his base of white, uneducated and racist men to the polls. I don't think the problem was Hillary to be honest...

 

It's statements like the last one that are reasons for this big divide. I voted for Gary Johnson to be clear, but I can tell you that I know a LOT of people who voted Trump, and uneducated and racist are not what they are.  This is just plain old ignorance, and it's really easy to do this unchallenged around here b/c most people posting here are rather like minded. I mean seriously... it's not like there aren't uneducated democrats out there, or racists for that matter.  There's plenty on both sides. 

 

We don't actually talk about real issues but instead stereotype our opponent into some sort of scary monster so as not to actually have the discussions and then add a nice dose of hypocrisy to ignore the same stuff on our team.  It's rather sickening, and it's one of the main reasons as to why this country is so polarized right now.

[Craig Arko]

 

Heartbeat, Trump indictment, Trump death (he will be the oldest inaugurated president in history), etc....and that's even more scary to me.

And in this case, like means 'quiver with fear because of the monsters under the bed.'

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

We're also in for four years of the Dems being those same "obstructionists" that the Republicans were accused of.  The hypocrisy is going to be really, really thick on both sides.

When has it ever not been?

 

That's why I stopped voting Republican.  2 years in to Dubya and it was clear to me.  This country needs to can both the parties... and it needs to do it soon.

 

 

[Mike Sixel]

Share prices of private prison companies shot up 20-40% today. What percent of people will be in jail in 4 years?