Hunter on Joe West

[USAFChief]

 

   And BTW, Torii shouldn't have bit at that pitch either. Did bring back memories though.

Well, see, he didn't.  That's the point.

[stringer bell]

In looking at the replay, it was certainly debatable that Hunter swung.  Watching from the center field camera, I thought he swung at the pitch.  Some have built up some animosity toward Joe West, for pretty good reasons, but he wasn't totally in the wrong.  He saw Torii swing when it looked like he checked, he makes more bad calls than most umps. 

[jimmer]

 

Well, see, he didn't.  That's the point.

No, he did.  The debate is how far he bit (whether he bit enough) but he did start his swing for sure so he did bite.

 

And no matter what, Hunter's comments after the game warrant a fine.

[Oldgoat_MN]

Hasn't Joe West been the poster boy for bad umping for years now?

Why is there no accountability among the umpires?

 

When a guy is terrible year in and year out something should be done. 

I am not basing this on one bad call. He has quite the history.

 

[jimmer]

 

Hasn't Joe West been the poster boy for bad umping for years now?

Why is there no accountability among the umpires?

 

When a guy is terrible year in and year out something should be done. 

I am not basing this on one bad call. He has quite the history.

He's made some awful calls and the umpires are graded.  He's also been fined and suspended for his brash actions towards players.  What happened today was a questionable call, for sure.  But he didn't get in the player's face when the player went off on him.  And he's also not required to appeal to 1B to get a second opinion. He probably SHOULD have, I certainly would have, but him not doing it doesn't mean he's not doing his job.

[Seth Stohs]

Hunter can't "appeal" to the first base umpire. Only the home plate umpire can do that.

 

The home plate often does ask the first base umpire (or 3B umpire with a left-handed hitter) for help on a check swing. The home plate umpire, if he feels he sees a swing with no question (or no swing), he can just call it himself. 

 

What I don't like is when it isn't clear and there's no way it could be clear to the home plate umpire, the batter has nothing that he can do.

 

I don't mind saying what he's saying. I would expect a fine. West will be evaluated and that call will go into that. I don't think Hunter went overboard, but it will get a fine.

[jimmer]

 

Hunter can't "appeal" to the first base umpire. Only the home plate umpire can do that.

 

The home plate often does ask the first base umpire (or 3B umpire with a left-handed hitter) for help on a check swing. The home plate umpire, if he feels he sees a swing with no question (or no swing), he can just call it himself. 

 

What I don't like is when it isn't clear and there's no way it could be clear to the home plate umpire, the batter has nothing that he can do.

 

I don't mind saying what he's saying. I would expect a fine. West will be evaluated and that call will go into that. I don't think Hunter went overboard, but it will get a fine.

Yes, the rule as written has always been bias towards the defense and that's not cool.  Both should be able to appeal. But it is what it is. We may have wanted him to appeal, but by rule he did his job and made a judgment call on whether or not it was a swing.  And I believe Hunter did go overboard.  Taking personal shots. And believe me, I dislike West's umpiring and actions as much as the next person.  

 

I'm not saying you are part of this Seth, but there seems to be quite a few fans that give(some) of our players a much longer benefit of the doubt than they would other athletes on other teams.  People defended Hunter when he calls a reporter a P word 3, 4 times.  They defend him for taking shots at West (one of which could be construed as a fat joke). They defend him when he actively speaks out for discrimination.  If he wasn't a star for us in his past and/or played for us now, I wonder how many people would defend him as strongly as they do? I wonder where the line is, honestly.

[gunnarthor]

Well that just makes up for the segment of the fan base that wants to see an outspoken black man fail, so it goes both ways.

 

Hunter's actions tonight seemed to be pretty mild and something that's pretty common in baseball. West was right not to escalate it and Hunter will get a fine.

[jimmer]

 

Well that just makes up for the segment of the fan base that wants to see an outspoken black man fail, so it goes both ways.

Hunter's actions tonight seemed to be pretty mild and something that's pretty common in baseball. West was right not to escalate it and Hunter will get a fine.

Oh, here we go.  Of course.  I have no doubt there are people like that, but that certainly doesn't mean everyone who has issues with what he does is motivated because he is black.  If it was an outspoken white guy saying/doing those things I guess there would be absolutely no ulterior motive by anyone who had an issue with it.  At that point, it could JUST be about his actions. But if we can question a person's motives for criticizing, then we can minimize the actions of the player instead of holding him/her accountable.  So why not.

[jorgenswest]

I went to Brooks Baseball to look at his strike zone map. West did a very good job with the strike zone today. There were maybe 4 pitches he missed other than the check swing. Three went in favor of the Twins.

 

For comparison look at the Yankee Blue Jay game. West's strike zone was much more consistent.

 

It was one call. One of the few he missed today. I would think he would grade out pretty well.

 

As for the Twins, they weren't competitive in today's game. I would prefer their mentor look for solutions inside the club house.

[Craig Arko]

I wonder where the line is, honestly.

Right about here.

[gunnarthor]

Oh, here we go.  Of course.  I have no doubt there are people like that, but that certainly doesn't mean everyone who has issues with what he does it motivated because he is black.  If it was an outspoken white guy saying/doing those things I guess there would be absolutely no ulterior motive by anyone who had an issue with it.  At that point, it could JUST be about his actions.

It'll be interesting to see how often we get threads like this when a player rips an ump. Frankly, Hunter's actions seemed pretty common place. But we will see how others view it when it's not Hunter.

[gunnarthor]

I went to Brooks Baseball to look at his strike zone map. West did a very good job with the strike zone today. There were maybe 4 pitches he missed other than the check swing. Three went in favor of the Twins.

For comparison look at the Yankee Blue Jay game. West's strike zone was much more consistent.

It was one call. One of the few he missed today. I would think he would grade out pretty well.

As for the Twins, they weren't competitive in today's game. I would prefer their mentor look for solutions inside the club house.

I was wondering about that. I think the positioning of the camera at Comerica isn't as good as it is at TF so some pitches toward the LH batters box might be closer than they look on TV. I didn't bother to check gameday today but maybe?

[jimmer]

 

It'll be interesting to see how often we get threads like this when a player rips an ump. Frankly, Hunter's actions seemed pretty common place. But we will see how others view it when it's not Hunter.

For me if he had just ripped him for the call, that would have been fine.  It's the meal reservation comment and concert part that was over the line from a professional standpoint.  

 

Personally, I thought it was coming, especially the meal reservation part.  It was comment said by fans on other sites when it happened. Too easy of a shot not to take and, as a fan, it was kind of funny especially because I can't stand West.

 

But that doesn't mean it doesn't warrant a fine because that kind of stuff just isn't allowed.  Which was my point when I first comment.  The guy I responded to said he didn't deserve a fine. Their job is baseball and that's unprofessional.

[stringer bell]

Agreed he should be fined and that he went over the line.  If he would have just said "Joe West was wrong", he probably would have been fined anyway.  He went beyond that and it probably does away with all doubt.

[Hrbowski]

 

I'm not saying you are part of this Seth, but there seems to be quite a few fans that give(some) of our players a much longer benefit of the doubt than they would other athletes on other teams.  People defended Hunter when he calls a reporter a P word 3, 4 times.  They defend him for taking shots at West (one of which could be construed as a fat joke). They defend him when he actively speaks out for discrimination.  If he wasn't a star for us in his past and/or played for us now, I wonder how many people would defend him as strongly as they do? I wonder where the line is, honestly.

Why do people defend reporters who ask stupid questions? And I don't remember Torii actively speaking out for discrimination, people are taking the definition of that word out of context to much, when someone believes in traditional marriage only doesn't make them a bigot.

[jimmer]

 

Why do people defend reporters who ask stupid questions? And I don't remember Torii actively speaking out for discrimination, people are taking the definition of that word out of context to much, when someone believes in traditional marriage only doesn't make them a bigot.

Torii had just signed a FREE AGENT contract.  The reporter asked if Torii felt that the commercial and his outspoken views affected his FREE AGENT process.  For example, would the Giants have taken on Torii and risk the wrath of their fan base?  You don't think there is a PR issue that may have affected his FREE AGENT process?

 

And believing in traditional marriage is one thing, but publically supporting a governal candidate (by doing a commercial) because he wants to suppress the rights of people that believe differently and want to have a same sex marriage is another. Using your celebrity as a baseball player to do it is yet another. Oh, and it wasn't the first time he came out and showed his issues with homosexuality. A couple years ago,  when asked whether or not he'd feel comfortable with homosexuals in the locker room he said: 'For me, as a Christian…I will be uncomfortable because in all my teachings and all my learning, biblically, it's not right. It will be difficult and uncomfortable.'

 

http://articles.latimes.com/2012/dec/29/sports/la-sp-sports-homophobia-20121230

 

[jimmer]

Anyway, GO TWINS! Go HUNTER!  GO WILD!

[jorgenswest]

Back to Hunter and West...

 

On the field and in the heat of the moment, he argued the call. West handled it well. It didn't escalate.

 

Wouldn't it have been better to respond differently after the game?

 

He could have said...

 

I didn't agree with the call. I was upset, but we have to play better. We need to take better at bats. We need to be sharper in the field...

 

We need our mentor to get the team focused on their jobs and not explanations. The game was 26 outs and 2 strikes old by the time the bad call was made. They weren't very competitive for that 8 and 2/3 innings.

[jimmer]

 

Back to Hunter and West...

On the field and in the heat of the moment, he argued the call. West handled it well. It didn't escalate.

Wouldn't it have been better to respond differently after the game?

He could have said...

I didn't agree with the call. I was upset, but we have to play better. We need to take better at bats. We need to be sharper in the field...

We need our mentor to get the team focused on their jobs and not explanations. The game was 26 outs and 2 strikes old by the time the bad call was made. They weren't very competitive for that 8 and 2/3 innings.

Molitor gave a great post game interview to include when asked about the call.  He gave lot of credit to Detroit's defense and David Price overall.

[formerly33]

So why do you have to bring politics into a conversation about just another typical Joe West call? Maybe Joe West making bad calls is getting boring...? Who knows. And while I'd like to jump into a political discussion, I don't think that this is the right place to have one.

[Winston Smith]

 

 

"He broke his wrists", "The bat went past the front of the plate."

Many people believe those two statements are written in the rules or are written as official interpretations of a strike.

THEY ARE NOT.

 

A strike by definition is "a pitch that is struck at by the batter and is missed." It is purely a judgment made by the umpire as to whether the batter "struck at" the pitch. Breaking the wrists or the bat moving beyond the front of the plate or the batter's body, are factors that the umpire may use to make the judgment. Factors is all they are; not definitions.

 

 

Once West called it a swinging strike there is no appeal. An appeal is only allowed when a ball is called and the defense asks for an appeal that it was a swing. The umpire does not have to grant the appeal.

[jimmer]

 

So why do you have to bring politics into a conversation about just another typical Joe West call? Maybe Joe West making bad calls is getting boring...? Who knows. And while I'd like to jump into a political discussion, I don't think that this is the right place to have one.

You've got a point, but I was asking how far a player of ours needs to go in his actions before we say he's over the line with his actions.  I gave some examples.  But again, point taken.  

[Twins Fan From Afar]

Yes, the rule as written has always been bias towards the defense and that's not cool.  Both should be able to appeal. But it is what it is. We may have wanted him to appeal, but by rule he did his job and made a judgment call on whether or not it was a swing.  And I believe Hunter did go overboard.  Taking personal shots. And believe me, I dislike West's umpiring and actions as much as the next person.  

 

I'm not saying you are part of this Seth, but there seems to be quite a few fans that give(some) of our players a much longer benefit of the doubt than they would other athletes on other teams.  People defended Hunter when he calls a reporter a P word 3, 4 times.  They defend him for taking shots at West (one of which could be construed as a fat joke). They defend him when he actively speaks out for discrimination.  If he wasn't a star for us in his past and/or played for us now, I wonder how many people would defend him as strongly as they do? I wonder where the line is, honestly.

I think there's something to this. Apart from those of us who would like to hear Joe Mauer be vocal/fired up in this manner, it's difficult for me to envision Twins Daily readers being as supportive of, say, Dozier, Plouffe, or even another experienced veteran like 2010 Orlando Hudson, for exhibiting the same behavior.

 

For some, there just seems to be this notion that "Torii used to play baseball here and do good things on the field, so now that he's back, things that he does (even if generally objectionable if done by most others) are ok, because he's one of us again!"

 

Not grouping anyone in particular here into this school of thought, but I do think this is a solid observation.

[jimmer]

 

I think there's something to this. Apart from those of us who would like to hear Joe Mauer be vocal/fired up in this manner, it's difficult for me to envision Twins Daily readers being as supportive of, say, Dozier, Plouffe, or even another experienced veteran like 2010 Orlando Hudson, for exhibiting the same behavior.

For some, there just seems to be this notion that "Torii used to play baseball here and do good things on the field, so now that he's back, things that he does (even if generally objectionable if done by most others) are ok, because he's one of us again!"

Not grouping anyone in particular here into this school of thought, but I do think this is a solid observation.

or even players from other teams did it and we saw them do it on a sports channel. If AJ had done this, I imagine most Twins fans would be all over him (including me.  Hate that guy).  If Cuddy had done it, it'd be fine with most I imagine.  It should be about the actions, not who does it. No matter what the actions are

 

And really, what Torii did in today's press conference was hardly heinous, but how he expressed himself did warrant a fine.  And we move on.

[glunn]

Moderator note -- please try to stay on topic in this thread.

[Mike Sixel]

Such a great leader. He is supposedly partly here for his leadership, I think we are going to be talking a lot about it, since he isn't used to losing.

[mnfireman]

The team looked flat today, a bad call went against the teams vocal leader and he did what he is here to do; voiced his displeasure. Hopefully showing his displeasure will light a fire under some and Wednesday's game will be more competitive.

[stringer bell]

It is pretty easy to look flat when you only get three baserunners through eight innings and are behind by 3+ runs from the second inning on.  Momentum will be Wednesday's starter.  After reading Parker's article, I feel a bit more positive about Hunter's presence in the lineup.  I am less than happy about his post-game presser.

[Willihammer]

I saw the replay and heard Torii's comments and I think he's right. Joe Wes screwed him and the team out of a late opportunity. Any other umpire in baseball would have appealed to the 1B umpire. I don't know if its senioritis or an empty belly or what but Joe West should probably just retire already because every other game he officiates turns into a sideshow.