Twins at Risk of Sinking to New Low with October Woes

Brock Beauchamp · October 7, 2019

Game 2 was only 1-0 when Duffey entered.

While that's not the platonic ideal spot to use Rogers, it is probably better than using Duffey again less than 24 hours after he had to throw 25 high-stress pitches against the same Yankee hitters.

Heck, the first two batters due to face Duffey in that spot (Stanton and Torres) had walked and doubled against him the previous night. I really can't comprehend why we didn't go with a fresh arm there -- or just let Dobnak see if he can get another GIDP from Stanton.

While I don't usually nit-pick Baldelli's decisions, he has not managed this series well. I would have gone to almost anyone in that situation, probably Graterol if you're that scared of burning your best pitchers early. More likely I would have gone to May as a middle ground.

The use of Arraez over Schoop in game one and the fact Rogers hasn't pitched at all is just straight-up bad management.

Mike Sixel · October 7, 2019

I'd take Berrios over Paxton and Tanaka so YMMV on this argument.

And Houston has a historically good starting rotation so aiming for that kind of improvement in a single season just isn't going to happen.

If only there had been an off season before this year, where they could have added a pitcher under control past this year that wasn't one of the worst pitchers in the game last year...

MABB1959 · October 7, 2019

One and done is not successful. Not winning at least one is embarassing. I don't know why they didn't leave Berrios in longer. Yes he was at 80+ pitches but I am pretty sure the outcome would have been different. What are you saving is arm for Spring Training? Not starting Odorizzi in game 2 unbelievable and Perez should be #3. Gibson coming in???????????? Why did we get Romo if we aren't going to use him? Relying on Duffey??????

Edited October 7, 2019 by MABB1959

Brock Beauchamp · October 7, 2019

If only there had been an off season before this year, where they could have added a pitcher under control past this year that wasn't one of the worst pitchers in the game last year...

This argument is pretty tired, Mike. Most of us agree they didn't do close to enough this past offseason in regards to pitching, there's no need to keep hammering at the same point for 10 months.

rdehring · October 7, 2019

You mean like the 3inning with the base loaded?

I hope you realized I was being sarcastic when I made that statement.

Although I didn't see much of Friday's game, I remain confident that Berrios can become that ACE type pitcher the Twins badly need. Like many, am disappointed he didn't dominate the Yankees Friday and pitch much deeper into the game. Don't know why he didn't, as I don't know why he slipped so badly in August. A true ACE can't do either. Maybe he will get there next year.

Doesn't mean the Twins don't need to find another #1 or ACE level arm for next year. Where and how, not a clue, but that isn't my job.

Mike Sixel · October 7, 2019

This argument is pretty tired, Mike. Most of us agree they didn't do close to enough this past offseason in regards to pitching, there's no need to keep hammering at the same point for 10 months.

Except that's why they can't fix the rotation in one year. They made this bed, I'm not going to let them off the hook for next year's rotation. Other people can say it can't be done, but it it can't be done, that's on them

bighat · October 7, 2019

Looking at some comments here, I almost wonder if many Twins fans would have preferred an 82-82 season and missing the playoffs over a 101 win season and getting swept by the Yanks in embarrassing fashion? I'm not being sarcastic and don't judge anyone's personal opinion.

It's kinda like the prettiest girl at school accepting your invite to the prom (yay!) only to dump you immediately after the night is over (embarrassing!). Would you rather have just not gone to the dance at all? Or does the experience build character?

Of course....from a fan's perspective, we don't need any more "character building experiences". We've had plenty of those moments and it's been a long time since anything went our way.

For the record, I'd prefer to make the playoffs and get swept rather than finish in the doldrums.

Otto von Ballpark · October 7, 2019

The use of Arraez over Schoop in game one and the fact Rogers hasn't pitched at all is just straight-up bad management.

I don't know about Arraez -- Schoop's looked pretty bad in his PAs too. I'm willing to give some leeway there.

But going to some lengths to protect your 3 bullpen arms in game 1, then starting Dobnak and *still* ignoring those 3 pen guys and turning to a used Duffey first in game 2 -- that combination of moves is a real head-scratcher to me.

Brock Beauchamp · October 7, 2019

I don't know about Arraez -- Schoop's looked pretty bad in his PAs too. I'm willing to give some leeway there.

But going to some lengths to protect your 3 bullpen arms in game 1, then starting Dobnak and *still* ignoring those 3 pen guys and turning to a used Duffey first in game 2 -- that combination of moves is a real head-scratcher to me.

Arraez may have cost them that game. While Cron SHOULD have caught that ball, Arraez’s throw was unnecessarily bad, probably because he stood on second flat-footed when he should have been moving.

And against a LHP, I go with Schoop 100% of the time. He mashes lefties and is a much better defender.

And if you don’t use Schoop in that game, why is he even on the roster? This team is supposed to be all about the numbers, yet they seem to make decisions that have nothing to do with numbers on a regular basis.

gocgo · October 7, 2019

Their ace was suspended right before the playoffs on suspicion of domestic abuse. So, this conspiracy theory doesn't add up.

Solid point.

nicksaviking · October 7, 2019

Except that's why they can't fix the rotation in one year. They made this bed, I'm not going to let them off the hook for next year's rotation. Other people can say it can't be done, but it it can't be done, that's on them

They need to get over this playoff funk obviously because my goal is to win the WS as I'm sure it is for everyone in the organization.

But they won 101 games this year while prioritizing hitting over pitching last off season, so it seems they're on the right track as far as improving the quality of the team goes. Baldelli made some questionable bullpen calls but the organization has hired front office and coaches that are versed in contemporary baseball strategy and eager to try new things to create advantages for the team.

I don't want to get swept by the Yankees, but I think an awful lot of people are blinded by two games and not seeing the giant and completely unexpected strides made this year.

gocgo · October 7, 2019

You can't say they are making calls to favor the Yanks. They have gotten healthy while we have gotten stupid (Pineda) and injured. The hotter and healthier team wins but making poor pitches to a guy who hadn't played in a month (Encarnacion) in game 1 and starting a rookie with 3 games of experience (game 2) is not a formula for winning- no matter how good or bad we hit. Now bat Arraz leadoff and let's get this party started tonight.

No, they are not making calls that favor the Yanks...but they do want them in the playoffs...I would too if I were them. It's a business and when the Yankees are in the playoffs, it's good for business.

I didn't like starting Arrias in game 1 and I thought it cost us 3 runs. Would have changed the game, but probably not the outcome. Tonight is throw everything but the kitchen sink at them. No sense saving Rogers to close out a game. We might need him in the 3rd inning.

Mike Sixel · October 7, 2019

Arraez may have cost them that game. While Cron SHOULD have caught that ball, Arraez’s throw was unnecessarily bad, probably because he stood on second flat-footed when he should have been moving.

And against a LHP, I go with Schoop 100% of the time. He mashes lefties and is a much better defender.

And if you don’t use Schoop in that game, why is he even on the roster? This team is supposed to be all about the numbers, yet they seem to make decisions that have nothing to do with numbers on a regular basis.

A very odd decision indeed. It made no sense at the time, and less as the game went on. Mind. Boggling.

Mike Sixel · October 7, 2019

They need to get over this playoff funk obviously because my goal is to win the WS as I'm sure it is for everyone in the organization.

But they won 101 games this year while prioritizing hitting over pitching last off season, so it seems they're on the right track as far as improving the quality of the team goes. Baldelli made some questionable bullpen calls but the organization has hired front office and coaches that are versed contemporary baseball strategy and eager to try new things to create advantages for the team.

I don't want to get swept by the Yankees, but I think an awful lot of people are blinded by two games and not seeing the giant and completely unexpected strides made this year.

I'm not sure what that means re my post. It's been a very good year. I was responding to a post that said pitching couldn't be fixed in one year.....I was pointing out that that was on their decision to bring in Perez instead of a good pitcher. If they keep the budget level, and don't sign Perez, they could have traded for or signeda pitcher, and still had these hitters. They choose not to. That's all that post said, nothing at all about the overall season.

SpicyGarvSauce · October 7, 2019

Everyone wants to blame the roster, the players, the manager, coaching staff, etc...but this series/end result of this season, where everything was supposed to be different and the Twins were going to exercise all these demons...is 100% ON THE FRONT OFFICE.

You can put together another 5-10 page thread on this and on that, but the number one reason why this team is headed towards another disappointing postseason is on the Pohlads, Lavine, and Falvey for not going out and getting a legit starting pitcher(s) to help this team. Instead, they didn't want to mortgage the future (again). What future? What has the FUTURE gotten the Twins over the last 20 years? 15 straight postseason losses, and an embarrassing stretch of games. Non competitive games, games where you never feel that the Twins have a chance.

It is ridiculous, it is unacceptable, and it is downright negligent that this front office continues to have the mindset of "we cannot mortgage the future to help our team in the short term." Seriously, even Mark freaking Rosen was on the radio yesterday stating this...and how he 100% understands now and will agree with fans when/if they opt to not show up to Target Field in 2020, continue to rip the FO for their lack of moves, etc. Shame on this organization. Shame. On. Them.

SpicyGarvSauce · October 7, 2019

Thinking more on that - it was the same mentality under Terry Ryan, Bill Smith, Terry Ryan, and now Falvine. The one constant throughout all of those GM's? The ownership.

nicksaviking · October 7, 2019

I'm not sure what that means re my post. It's been a very good year. I was responding to a post that said pitching couldn't be fixed in one year.....I was pointing out that that was on their decision to bring in Perez instead of a good pitcher. If they keep the budget level, and don't sign Perez, they could have traded for or signeda pitcher, and still had these hitters. They choose not to. That's all that post said, nothing at all about the overall season.

My point was that they did not sign much in the way of pitching last offseason as they clearly prioritized the offense. Since they won 101 games maybe we need to consider that decisions or non-decisions they made were the right call.

insagt1 · October 7, 2019

For me, its ALWAYS better to at least make post season, than not. You can't win it if you're not in it. Its like a strikeout...it accomplishes nothing at all. The worst kind of out. While yeah, a DP is bad, by hitting the ball at least you have a shot at something good happening. With a 'k', you got nothing. (except the VERY rare passed ball) If you can't hit the ball, you won't be winning the game.usually!

Our problem is we always draw the Yankees and we can't beat them...no matter what year, who plays, where the games are played and how many. We lose them all. And everyone has opinions on why so we don't have to go back there.

As a Bruins fan I well remember 1970 when they finally won a Stanley Cup. Disgruntled Habs fans, and many others said...its not legitimate because they didn't beat Montreal (who missed the playoffs) Until Boston could beat Montreal in post season, it just didn't seem as 'right' to many. And that went on for years. Might be the same with Twins. Until they can figure out how to beat the pinstripes, the dragon will not have been slayed. (post 1991 of course).

I still want a win tonite.

Otto von Ballpark · October 7, 2019

Arraez may have cost them that game. While Cron SHOULD have caught that ball, Arraez’s throw was unnecessarily bad, probably because he stood on second flat-footed when he should have been moving.

And against a LHP, I go with Schoop 100% of the time. He mashes lefties and is a much better defender.

And if you don’t use Schoop in that game, why is he even on the roster? This team is supposed to be all about the numbers, yet they seem to make decisions that have nothing to do with numbers on a regular basis.

Remember the Brewers had Schoop on their roster last year, and used him only 4 times in 10 postseason games (1 start, 3 pinch hit appearances -- and as an NL team, they pretty much needed pinch-hitters in every single game). So this isn't the first time a contender has deemed this as appropriate usage for Schoop.

About Schoop "mashing lefties", here are some of his career numbers vs Yankee pitchers:

https://www.baseball-reference.com/play-index/batter_vs_pitcher.cgi?request=1&submitter=1&batter=schoojo01&min_year_game=2013&max_year_game=2019&post=1&opp_id=NYY&throws=any&c1gtlt=gt&c2gtlt=gt&orderby=PA&orderby_dir=desc&orderby_second=Name&orderby_dir_second=asc

Happ .563

Paxton .222

Chapman .000

I guess he was 2-for-2 vs Tyler Lyons, before striking out against him in 3 pitches on Saturday.

Even in 2019, while Arraez has less power, Arraez has a notably higher OBP and lower K rate vs LHP than Schoop. Basically the same AVG too. Given the rest of the lineup, maybe Rocco wanted that spot to put the ball in play and hopefully reach base, more than another feast-or-famine, HR-or-K type?

FWIW, Arraez doubled and scored off the game 1 lefty starter too. As the fielding play was mostly on Cron, as you allude to, I think the decision was justifiable and worked out fine.

USAFChief · October 7, 2019

Remember the Brewers had Schoop on their roster last year, and used him only 4 times in 10 postseason games (1 start, 3 pinch hit appearances -- and as an NL team, they pretty much needed pinch-hitters in every single game). So this isn't the first time a contender has deemed this as appropriate usage for Schoop.

About Schoop "mashing lefties", here are some of his career numbers vs Yankee pitchers:

https://www.baseball-reference.com/play-index/batter_vs_pitcher.cgi?request=1&submitter=1&batter=schoojo01&min_year_game=2013&max_year_game=2019&post=1&opp_id=NYY&throws=any&c1gtlt=gt&c2gtlt=gt&orderby=PA&orderby_dir=desc&orderby_second=Name&orderby_dir_second=asc

Happ .563
Paxton .222
Chapman .000

I guess he was 2-for-2 vs Tyler Lyons, before striking out against him in 3 pitches on Saturday.

Even in 2019, while Arraez has less power, Arraez has a notably higher OBP and lower K rate vs LHP than Schoop. Basically the same AVG too. Given the rest of the lineup, maybe Rocco wanted that spot to put the ball in play and hopefully reach base, more than another feast-or-famine, HR-or-K type?

FWIW, Arraez doubled and scored off the game 1 lefty starter too. As the fielding play was mostly on Cron, as you allude to, I think the decision was justifiable and worked out fine.

That inning never happens if Arraez catches a relatively routine popup to start the inning.

A hobbled Arraez against a LH starter was a curious decision, IMO.

Hosken Bombo Disco · October 7, 2019

I disagree too. Start Schoop in game one. The Twins were overthinking this. There would have been a chance to get Arraez in the game later and then start Arraez in game two. Arraez’s double was good, but hardly hard-hit, and Arraez also grounded into a double play early on which was a huge blow. You feel for the kid having a terrible game, we were all happy he healed up in time to play, but coming off the ankle sprain the right call was to start Schoop.

Longdistancetwins · October 7, 2019

As a Bruins fan I well remember 1970 when they finally won a Stanley Cup. Disgruntled Habs fans, and many others said...its not legitimate because they didn't beat Montreal (who missed the playoffs) Until Boston could beat Montreal in post season, it just didn't seem as 'right' to many. And that went on for years. Might be the same with Twins. Until they can figure out how to beat the pinstripes, the dragon will not have been slayed. (post 1991 of course).

I still want a win tonite.

Cool analogy. Thanks for sharing.

Otto von Ballpark · October 7, 2019

That inning never happens if Arraez catches a relatively routine popup to start the inning.

I don't know if it was that routine -- it was really in no-man's land:

If it had been high enough for Arraez to get under it, then Rosario probably has a better play on it anyway.

And in any case, that ball dropping doesn't matter if Cron catches a relatively routine throw from the second baseman.

laloesch · October 7, 2019

Dear Ownership

Free Agency begins 5 days after the WS. You need 2 starting pitchers better than Berrios.

Do you know what's in your wallet?!

Love,
Any Future Season Ticket Holders

100% Agreed and they have plenty of room in the payroll to do it.

chpettit19 · October 7, 2019

Regarding Rocco: He's been so badly out managed in this series that its not even worth talking about. No excuse for using the bullpen the way he has. Better be learning from his mistakes.

Regarding the FO: Would another arm be nice? Absolutely! Are the Nats still at risk of being eliminated today despite having 3 legit #1 arms? Absolutely! Let's get a little perspective here. The new FO took over after a 103 loss season and in 3 offseasons turned them in to a 101 win team that looks like it is set up to be awfully competitive moving forward. Has the FO been perfect? No. Have all their moves turned out? No. But have they built a sustainable winning team? Yes. If Pineda didn't cheat and get caught we are looking at 3 guys in Berrios, Odo, and Pineda that are good enough to keep the team in the game assuming the offense shows up and does what they do. It seems to me that the anger towards the FO is more about not getting recognizable names than it is about not getting good players.

Patrick Corbin is 0-2 with 9.45 ERA, has walked 7 guys in 6.2 innings and given up 8 runs (7 earned) this post season. He was one of the big free agent arms that everybody wants the Twins to sign every year. Would you be shrugging your shoulders and saying "Oh well, bummer we lost 10-4 and 8-2, but at least we signed a gigantic contract so now won't be able to make any decent sized adjustments this offseason. I just love that we actually tried this time. Because we all know the only way to show you're trying is to pay 3 starting pitchers over $20 mil a year each. Nats fans can't complain that they lost their series cuz they have 3 aces." At the end of the day the budget is the budget and the FO has done a pretty darn good job putting together this team with those constraints. The Pohlads deserve some complaints, but the FO doesn't dictate their budget, all they can do is work with what they're given. I'm not going to take the time to look up all the big relief pitcher deals this offseason that the Twins passed on, but Ottavino is the only one that worked out. Yu Darvish last year? He was basically Michael Pineda this year, and was a complete loss last year. Pineda made 5 mil this year and now we're out of that contract and can adjust, Yu still has 4 years and 100+ left on his.

The Twins are a year ahead of schedule I'd say. I don't think the FO or the fans were expecting 101 wins this year. I think 90ish and fighting for a playoff spot was kind of the high water estimate for most people. My guess is you're about to see some trades from areas of strength (offense, especially outfield) in the organization to get things to fill the holes (pitching) in the organization. So get all your complaints about trading away guys you like for guys who end up not playing well and telling us all how the FO screwed that up, too.

Battle ur tail off · October 7, 2019

Everyone wants to blame the roster, the players, the manager, coaching staff, etc...but this series/end result of this season, where everything was supposed to be different and the Twins were going to exercise all these demons...is 100% ON THE FRONT OFFICE.

You can put together another 5-10 page thread on this and on that, but the number one reason why this team is headed towards another disappointing postseason is on the Pohlads, Lavine, and Falvey for not going out and getting a legit starting pitcher(s) to help this team. Instead, they didn't want to mortgage the future (again). What future? What has the FUTURE gotten the Twins over the last 20 years? 15 straight postseason losses, and an embarrassing stretch of games. Non competitive games, games where you never feel that the Twins have a chance.

It is ridiculous, it is unacceptable, and it is downright negligent that this front office continues to have the mindset of "we cannot mortgage the future to help our team in the short term." Seriously, even Mark freaking Rosen was on the radio yesterday stating this...and how he 100% understands now and will agree with fans when/if they opt to not show up to Target Field in 2020, continue to rip the FO for their lack of moves, etc. Shame on this organization. Shame. On. Them.

I agree. Never will they have this kind of offensive output going forward. They just won't and those that are expecting it to be THIS good are probably going to be disappointed next season.

They should have gone all in. Should have brought in a better bullpen piece at the deadline, should have signed Keuchel and should have traded for Grienke or someone of that caliber. All it would have cost was one of our top 3 guys(prospects), some money and the same kind of prospects we dealt to get Romo and Dyson.

Otto von Ballpark · October 7, 2019

I disagree too. Start Schoop in game one. The Twins were overthinking this. There would have been a chance to get Arraez in the game later and then start Arraez in game two. Arraez’s double was good, but hardly hard-hit, and Arraez also grounded into a double play early on which was a huge blow. You feel for the kid having a terrible game, we were all happy he healed up in time to play, but coming off the ankle sprain the right call was to start Schoop.

Although Schoop has a higher rate of grounding into double plays anyway (even vs LHP this season).

And even if the double wasn't well-hit, Arraez's ability to make contact is probably more useful in the Twins lineup, than Schoop doing a lesser impersonation of Sano, Rosario, etc.

I mean, I could see this one going either way. I'm not arguing that starting Schoop would have been a mistake. And I know that starting Arraez could have been a mistake, if his ankle sprain was affecting him too much. But based on what I've seen, that doesn't seem to be the case.

Bomba2026 · October 7, 2019

All this good team needs is an Exorcism. Is their a priest in the house?

USAFChief · October 7, 2019

I don't know if it was that routine -- it was really in no-man's land:

play.png

If it had been high enough for Arraez to get under it, then Rosario probably has a better play on it anyway.

And in any case, that ball dropping doesn't matter if Cron catches a relatively routine throw from the second baseman.

Did you watch the game? That popup absolutely should have been caught by the second baseman, with ease. Arraez sort of gingerly drifted back, and it still went off his glove.

SpicyGarvSauce · October 7, 2019

I agree. Never will they have this kind of offensive output going forward. They just won't and those that are expecting it to be THIS good are probably going to be disappointed next season.

They should have gone all in. Should have brought in a better bullpen piece at the deadline, should have signed Keuchel and should have traded for Grienke or someone of that caliber. All it would have cost was one of our top 3 guys(prospects), some money and the same kind of prospects we dealt to get Romo and Dyson.

You could see it coming, too. They were never going to trade for Grienke, or Syndergaard, or Stroman, or MadBum. Why? Because that is something the Twins have NEVER done under the ownership of the Pohlads. So anyone to expect something different, you were fooled. And we will continue to be fooled every single time the Twins have an opportunity to do something.

Instead, this ownership would rather go for someone on the cheap who may provide a month or two worth of good output, only to watch the team go down in flames come October. The whole "we will strike when the window is open" is such a crock. The window opened back in April & May, and this ownership sat on their hands and put their faith in Martin Perez, Kyle Gibson, and others.

Shame. On. Them.

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