Article: Escobar Impressing at SS

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

I've been a big Florimon supporter but have cooled a little. If Escobar can do the job, and if Florimon is really so far behind with batting against live pitching as Thrylos is reporting, then I think there's nothing wrong with rolling with Escobar opening day.

 

Which leaves quite a dilemma-- you've sent Florimon to AAA so he can get his bat working.. hmm...

[Brock Beauchamp]

Right and this was hardly an isolated incident.

 

So the real question is whether Escobar has the mythical "leadership skills" requisite for any Gardy SS. Since I don't have the slightest damn idea what those are....I guess we'll find out soon enough.

 

Yep. To say that the Twins have made many questionable middle infield decisions over the past 15 years is very generous. Many would describe it as outright disaster most seasons.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Looking at Escobar's minor league baseball card, it also looks like he's had some speed in the past, if not quite a burner. Could he be our leadoff hitter to start?

(which would also smartly push Hicks back into a 7-9 slot)

[bird]

It's almost impossible to defend the 2006 season and the shortstop situation out of Spring Training.

 

Now whether that was Gardy or Ryan or both, I don't know... but Juan Castro.

 

Ugh. Juan Castro.

 

Brock, I'm not defending their decisions. Over the years, they've given us plenty of ammunition and some big targets, Castro being the poster boy. But to say that it's Gardy's MO to play crappy players, which was the basic message to which I reacted, is a bit of a cheap shot, that's all.

 

Back to Escobar versus Florimon.

[bird]

Yep. To say that the Twins have made many questionable middle infield decisions over the past 15 years is very generous. Many would describe it as outright disaster most seasons.

 

And I think a part of this ugly history can be traced to their lack of investment in building up an international scouting and development capacity, and particularly a Dominican presence, until just several years ago. Finally, we're seeing some impressive evidence of a future payoff from that. Danny Santana might just replace Florimon by mid-summer.

 

But I do think you're being just a tad harsh in calling the decisions of who played MI an outright disaster most seasons. Disastrous choices, maybe, but not disastrous decisions most of the time. But Castro. I know.

[cmathewson]

Escobar is a slightly better hitter with a bit more offensive upside. Florimon is a much better fielder with a bit more upside (more consistent). If you think those things are equally valuable, you take the guy with a clear advantage at one of them. That would be Florimon.

[ashbury]

Back to Escobar versus Florimon.

 

Moderator's note: Yes. A review of historical SS choices, or of how the team goes about signing prospects, probably belongs in its own thread by now.

[Riverbrian]

BTW... Not trying to flame anything... My points are being made with a smile on my face.

 

My points are these:

 

I think the Twins value defense at the SS and C positions.

 

I think they should.

 

I think the majority of the other 29 teams do as well.

 

I don't think the people who run the Twins are baseball clueless.

 

I think there are defensive baseball metrics that say that Florimon is elite and others are producing defensive metrics that say he isn't. Defensive Metrics are half baked and inconsistent and dangerous in the hands of those who are biblical about them.

 

I watch him play and there is no doubt he's elite. He was stunning at times. If any defensive metric says otherwise... His play as shown me enough. I don't belong to the D metric Church.

 

You can drag Punto and Castro into the discussion as an MO. Fine... It shows me that they value defense then and Florimon shows that they still value it.

 

There is nothing to justify offensively in Florimon's MLB Offense numbers or... Past farm numbers.

 

If he's a suspect hitter and we can all agree that he is because its obvious that he isn't good with the bat.

 

If he's a suspect... Below average hitter... Below average for light hitting SS's even...

 

If all this is true and it is... Why would the Twins hand him the job for the 2nd year in a row if he was also an average non elite defensive SS... They wouldn't and this can't be argued.

 

If anyone believes that the Twins would field a bad bat at SS who is also just a simple decent defensive SS and at a somewhat advanced age. It would explain why some think we have a clueless front office.

 

You can argue how our front office ranks in comparison to the other front offices in baseball... But... Can we not assume that they are not that clueless. There are a bunch of lifelong baseball men employed by the organization.

 

If Florimon wasn't considered elite Defensively. The Twins would have given Escobar or Bartlett the job already. They would have signed Drew or Peralta or Anyone because his bat isn't up to snuff.

 

Andrealton Simmons... Is a decent hitter but he doesn't blow the doors off the place... He is stunning defensively. The Braves will not part with him. The D-Backs wanted to give them Juston Upton for him. The Braves wouldn't do it and they obviously wanted Upton because they got him with another package.

 

The Tigers gave up Avisail Garcia to get Iglasias from Boston. They were set with him at SS and only now that he is hurt... Are they looking at Drew. No interest in Drew with an elite defensive SS in place and they let Peralta go. If it was money entirely they wouldn't be looking at Drew at all... Even after the injury to Iglasias!

 

Andrus isn't exactly killing it at the plate. The Rangers locked him up because he rocks defensively.

 

There are weak hitting SS's all over the place. It's because teams want defense at the position. If you are not up to snuff... They move you to 2B, 3B or the OF.

 

Not only is Florimon Elite... He is Jaw Droppingly good at a time where SS's are doing more defensively than any other decade.

 

With all of that... Happy St. Patricks Day to all!!! :th_alc::th_alc:

[Brock Beauchamp]

Brian, yeah, there are weak-hitting shortstops all over the place... But your two examples are both considered better defenders than Florimon and they're significantly better hitters.

 

There's weak-hitting and then there's Pedro Florimon.

[KirbyHawk75]

I really like Escobar as a utility man... I think he can join the likes of Denny Hocking. Floriman is very good defensively, but his offense is so bad that I just do not think he is a major league caliber starter. However, if Escobar starts what does Floriman offer? He is not a bat off the bench.

[tobi0040]

BTW... Not trying to flame anything... My points are being made with a smile on my face.

 

My points are these:

 

I think the Twins value defense at the SS and C positions.

 

I think they should.

 

I think the majority of the other 29 teams do as well.

 

I don't think the people who run the Twins are baseball clueless.

 

I think there are defensive baseball metrics that say that Florimon is elite and others are producing defensive metrics that say he isn't. Defensive Metrics are half baked and inconsistent and dangerous in the hands of those who are biblical about them.

 

I watch him play and there is no doubt he's elite. He was stunning at times. If any defensive metric says otherwise... His play as shown me enough. I don't belong to the D metric Church.

 

You can drag Punto and Castro into the discussion as an MO. Fine... It shows me that they value defense then and Florimon shows that they still value it.

 

There is nothing to justify offensively in Florimon's MLB Offense numbers or... Past farm numbers.

 

If he's a suspect hitter and we can all agree that he is because its obvious that he isn't good with the bat.

 

If he's a suspect... Below average hitter... Below average for light hitting SS's even...

 

If all this is true and it is... Why would the Twins hand him the job for the 2nd year in a row if he was also an average non elite defensive SS... They wouldn't and this can't be argued.

 

If anyone believes that the Twins would field a bad bat at SS who is also just a simple decent defensive SS and at a somewhat advanced age. It would explain why some think we have a clueless front office.

 

You can argue how our front office ranks in comparison to the other front offices in baseball... But... Can we not assume that they are not that clueless. There are a bunch of lifelong baseball men employed by the organization.

 

If Florimon wasn't considered elite Defensively. The Twins would have given Escobar or Bartlett the job already. They would have signed Drew or Peralta or Anyone because his bat isn't up to snuff.

 

Andrealton Simmons... Is a decent hitter but he doesn't blow the doors off the place... He is stunning defensively. The Braves will not part with him. The D-Backs wanted to give them Juston Upton for him. The Braves wouldn't do it and they obviously wanted Upton because they got him with another package.

 

The Tigers gave up Avisail Garcia to get Iglasias from Boston. They were set with him at SS and only now that he is hurt... Are they looking at Drew. No interest in Drew with an elite defensive SS in place and they let Peralta go. If it was money entirely they wouldn't be looking at Drew at all... Even after the injury to Iglasias!

 

Andrus isn't exactly killing it at the plate. The Rangers locked him up because he rocks defensively.

 

There are weak hitting SS's all over the place. It's because teams want defense at the position. If you are not up to snuff... They move you to 2B, 3B or the OF.

 

Not only is Florimon Elite... He is Jaw Droppingly good at a time where SS's are doing more defensively than any other decade.

 

With all of that... Happy St. Patricks Day to all!!! :th_alc::th_alc:

 

I agree with your sentiment about the defensive metrics. Simmons won over 5 games defensively if you look at defensive WAR. Carlos Gomez 4+ games helped him become the second most valuable player in the league last year according to total WAR. I have a hard time believing a player like that could be more valuable than Kershaw for example.

 

Regarding Florimon and the Twins view. I guess I don't see why we stand for a great defensive SS that is a complete liability at the plate when we would not stand for a below average SS that hits very well. It seem slike you could model out the difference between a guy like Florimon and compare him with a guy that hits much better, but may get a few more errors. May let a few more balls through, etc.

 

http://espn.go.com/mlb/war/leaders

[Brad Swanson]

I'm obviously a pro-Escobar guy. I'll admit that Florimon appears to be a better defender. Escobar did have the reputation as an elite defender as a prospect though. Kevin Goldstein, formerly of Baseball Prospectus and now working for the Astros, stated in the White Sox top eleven back in 2011 that Escobar "is an excellent defensive player with great instincts, soft hands, and a plus-plus arm."

 

Reports aren't production, so I get that Escobar will need to prove it on the field. Personally, the allure of slightly better offense is enough for me. Last year, Florimon started 134 games at short. Escobar started 38. I'd like to see that ratio move closer to 50-50 in 2014.

[Boom Boom]

I'm looking at Escobar's fielding stats at shortstop... and he doesn't have a ton of experience there, but I don't see how he's below average. Average at worst, maybe. He's definitely not Brendan Harris or T-Nish at shortstop.

 

If he's the hitter that he's been at AAA and in spring training, then the difference offensively between Escobar and Florimon could be greater than the difference defensively.

[cmathewson]

I'm looking at Escobar's fielding stats at shortstop... and he doesn't have a ton of experience there, but I don't see how he's below average. Average at worst, maybe. He's definitely not Brendan Harris or T-Nish at shortstop.

 

If he's the hitter that he's been at AAA and in spring training, then the difference offensively between Escobar and Florimon could be greater than the difference defensively.

 

Harris and Nishioka were two of the worst shortstops in decades, not just for the Twins, but on any team. What I meant by "below average" is comparable to the league, where you have a lot of guys like the other Escobar (Alcides). I think Eduardo is comparable to Stephen Drew, to pick a name we're all familiar with. He's not going to hurt you over there. But he's not going to win you many games with his glove by getting to balls few else can get to. Florimon is closer to the other Escobar.

 

That said, it is my own opinion based on my amateur scouting eye. Eduardo did win the gold glove in the VWL. If his bat really does progress like some are predicting, he is worth giving a bigger chance to, especially from the right side of the plate.

[Riverbrian]

I agree with your sentiment about the defensive metrics. Simmons won over 5 games defensively if you look at defensive WAR. Carlos Gomez 4+ games helped him become the second most valuable player in the league last year according to total WAR. I have a hard time believing a player like that could be more valuable than Kershaw for example.

 

Regarding Florimon and the Twins view. I guess I don't see why we stand for a great defensive SS that is a complete liability at the plate when we would not stand for a below average SS that hits very well. It seem slike you could model out the difference between a guy like Florimon and compare him with a guy that hits much better, but may get a few more errors. May let a few more balls through, etc.

 

http://espn.go.com/mlb/war/leaders

 

I think the complete package discussion of the value of Florimon is a completely legit discussion. I to... am hoping that the complete package is somewhere in the pipeline. I want my SS to hit more and I'm not trying to say Florimon should be the SS until 2020 because I love his glove. His offense leaves him hanging by a thread.

 

I'm just being pig-headed about the defensive side of the ball and any attempt to paint him as average in that department.

 

I think that Baseball organizations value the defensive side of the ball a lot higher than most of us mere mortals. They absolutely consider the total package but I think the defensive side is weighted more than most of us realize.

 

As for Florimon being a complete liability at the plate. You gotta be careful here... He's not a complete liability at the plate.

 

He just hasn't been very good and he doesn't compare well to others. However he is above the Mendoza line and he found the seats 9 times. It's not like he hasn't gotten a hit or two when needed or not needed. If you put Ashbury at the plate... He might be a complete liability.

 

On the defensive side... It's hard to quantify what one amazing play does for you.

 

If Florimon makes one of his plays ranging into the hole into the LF and jumps and guns out a runner from mid-air like he has done with my jaw on the floor. You don't know how many runs that prevents because once you get to three outs they don't get to try anymore.

 

Baseball guys like Gardy will tell you that giving teams extra outs kill you. It's another chance for someone to do some damage at the plate. Another chance to roll those statistical probabilities and have it come out against you.

 

And the same is true on the reverse... Taking away an out kills the other team. It takes away a runner on base... another chance to park one or Texas League one.

 

The Pitchers who are getting bonuses and larger contracts based on ERA and other measurables. Love IT!!!

 

You can bet that the Twins pitching staff wants Florimon out there.

[twinsnorth49]

I'm with the Escobar camp, the allure of his potential bat outweighs any perceived reservations about his defense,which I don't think are very well established.

 

For as good as everyone seems to think Florimon is defensively, and I'll admit he is good, he is that bad as a hitter, I just don't see his defense justifying a regular spot in the long term. I'd rather live with Escobar progressing as a defender than Florimon progressing as a hitter.

[tobi0040]

As for Florimon being a complete liability at the plate. You gotta be careful here... He's not a complete liability at the plate.

 

He just hasn't been very good and he doesn't compare well to others. However he is above the Mendoza line and he found the seats 9 times. It's not like he hasn't gotten a hit or two when needed or not needed. If you put Ashbury at the plate... He might be a complete liability.

 

.

 

 

Florimon has had 548 at bats at the MLB level. He has hit .219, .278 OBP, .601 OPS. 26 extra base hits. That is a clear liability to me. It doesn't get much worse than that.

[ashbury]

If you put Ashbury at the plate... He might be a complete liability.

 

With competent coaching and many years of patience, I might aspire to someday become a complete liability. Right now, I'm just not that good.

[diehardtwinsfan]

This is a bit off topic, but are there any statistics out there that tell us what percentage of outs are being handled at the SS position comparied to the other positions in the game? I get that C is a bit different, but with SS, it's a lot easier to look at what percentage of plays short stops are involved at in comparrison to the rest of the postions in baseball. To me, this is the answer to whether or not I want a glove first or a bat first at that position.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Florimon has had 548 at bats at the MLB level. He has hit .219, .278 OBP, .601 OPS. 26 extra base hits. That is a clear liability to me. It doesn't get much worse than that.

 

Yep. He makes an out 72% of the time. Unless that guy is slugging .450+, he's going to be a complete liability at the plate.

 

And Pedro Florimon slugged .330 last season.

[Shane Wahl]

Escobar is a slightly better hitter with a bit more offensive upside. Florimon is a much better fielder with a bit more upside (more consistent). If you think those things are equally valuable, you take the guy with a clear advantage at one of them. That would be Florimon.

 

Yes, EXACTLY!

[LaBombo]

How often have the Twins not favored the better defender (especially up the middle) unless the the other player had a major edge offensively?

[jokin]

How often have the Twins not favored the better defender (especially up the middle) unless the the other player had a major edge offensively?

 

Ain't that the truth? TK was badmouthing Todd Walker even before he was forced to put him in the starting lineup. Probably held a huge "Welcome to the Twins" party for the immortal Todd Sears, when they traded Walker in 2000. And another party for the arrival of "The Luis Rivas Era."

[Guest USAFChief]

On the defensive side... It's hard to quantify what one amazing play does for you. .

On the other hand, it's not that hard to quantify what one really weak hitter does to an offense.

[LaBombo]

Ain't that the truth? TK was badmouthing Todd Walker even before he was forced to put him in the starting lineup. Probably held a huge "Welcome to the Twins" party for the immortal Todd Sears, when they traded Walker in 2000. And another party for the arrival of "The Luis Rivas Era."

Heh. Todd Sears. Who'd have thought that 4 years into Target Field, we'd be nostalgic about The Age of Rivas. Not the player, just the team not... sucking all the time, I guess.

 

The defense thing is partly organizational philosophy, and partly that they've dug such a huge hole for themselves with starting pitchers who can't miss bats that they feel the need to go with the better glove almost no matter what.

 

Not much has been made of the toll that bad pitching takes on a team's run production when it places an extreme emphasis on defense.

[Kwak]

It seems that much of the discussion is based on settling the OF vs DEF question (excluding the merits of grammatical modifiers). The point was raised about organizational philosophy concerning DEF and pitching. But all have omitted that said philosophy was predicated on: playing in the Metrodome and the effect of the "turf"; the weather-perfect conditions, and that much of this philosopy was formed by a manager who was elevated to icon status. All three have been replaced. It seems to me that the Twins' BB philosophy needs to be adjusted for those changes--especially for play at Target Field. Slap-and-dash "hitters" could "succeed" at the 'dome--but on grass fields come crashing down. Infielders with a bit less range can succeed on grass fields because the ball travels slower--and the grass may be permitted to be a bit higher, and the "dirt" around homeplate a bit "softer" to make things easier for the infielders.

[Jim H]

Ain't that the truth? TK was badmouthing Todd Walker even before he was forced to put him in the starting lineup. Probably held a huge "Welcome to the Twins" party for the immortal Todd Sears, when they traded Walker in 2000. And another party for the arrival of "The Luis Rivas Era."

 

Walker was really bad defensively. Everyone wanted him because of his bat, but they got rid of him about as soon as they could after watching him play defense. Colorado, Boston, Cinncinati, Chicago; he couldn't find a home anywhere.

[Reider]

BTW... Not trying to flame anything... My points are being made with a smile on my face.

 

My points are these:

 

I think the Twins value defense at the SS and C positions.

 

I think they should.

 

I think the majority of the other 29 teams do as well.

 

I don't think the people who run the Twins are baseball clueless.

 

I think there are defensive baseball metrics that say that Florimon is elite and others are producing defensive metrics that say he isn't. Defensive Metrics are half baked and inconsistent and dangerous in the hands of those who are biblical about them.

 

I watch him play and there is no doubt he's elite. He was stunning at times. If any defensive metric says otherwise... His play as shown me enough. I don't belong to the D metric Church.

 

You can drag Punto and Castro into the discussion as an MO. Fine... It shows me that they value defense then and Florimon shows that they still value it.

 

There is nothing to justify offensively in Florimon's MLB Offense numbers or... Past farm numbers.

 

If he's a suspect hitter and we can all agree that he is because its obvious that he isn't good with the bat.

 

If he's a suspect... Below average hitter... Below average for light hitting SS's even...

 

If all this is true and it is... Why would the Twins hand him the job for the 2nd year in a row if he was also an average non elite defensive SS... They wouldn't and this can't be argued.

 

If anyone believes that the Twins would field a bad bat at SS who is also just a simple decent defensive SS and at a somewhat advanced age. It would explain why some think we have a clueless front office.

 

You can argue how our front office ranks in comparison to the other front offices in baseball... But... Can we not assume that they are not that clueless. There are a bunch of lifelong baseball men employed by the organization.

 

If Florimon wasn't considered elite Defensively. The Twins would have given Escobar or Bartlett the job already. They would have signed Drew or Peralta or Anyone because his bat isn't up to snuff.

 

Andrealton Simmons... Is a decent hitter but he doesn't blow the doors off the place... He is stunning defensively. The Braves will not part with him. The D-Backs wanted to give them Juston Upton for him. The Braves wouldn't do it and they obviously wanted Upton because they got him with another package.

 

The Tigers gave up Avisail Garcia to get Iglasias from Boston. They were set with him at SS and only now that he is hurt... Are they looking at Drew. No interest in Drew with an elite defensive SS in place and they let Peralta go. If it was money entirely they wouldn't be looking at Drew at all... Even after the injury to Iglasias!

 

Andrus isn't exactly killing it at the plate. The Rangers locked him up because he rocks defensively.

 

There are weak hitting SS's all over the place. It's because teams want defense at the position. If you are not up to snuff... They move you to 2B, 3B or the OF.

 

Not only is Florimon Elite... He is Jaw Droppingly good at a time where SS's are doing more defensively than any other decade.

 

With all of that... Happy St. Patricks Day to all!!! :th_alc::th_alc:

This is an excellent post and I couldn't agree more. Lots of Twins fans don't get it, but you do.

 

SS is a very special position. It's a very important defensive position. It's also important to have good chemistry and skill between your middle infielders. Some stats show that Florimon is top 5 defensively and if you're top 5 at the MLB level, how can you argue against labeling him elite at his position? Some stats show him not being top 5. You can manipulate numbers to show your point of view in many aspects of life. As someone who grew up playing SS competitively and have watched SS's come and go in the MLB, I truly appreciate Florimon's skill set.

 

Florimon has a defensive skill set that only comes around every so often. Him and Dozier built good chemistry last year, which is very important on a team that produces a lot of ground balls or at least tries to. It's very wise of the Twins to at least give Florimon another opportunity to at least improve a little bit at both offense and defense. There's no doubt in my mind that Florimon has the skill set to be #2 defensively in the MLB behind Simmons, and although I'm not as optimistic about his offense, it's possible that he can learn to strike out less, which will hopefully improve his hitting statistics a little bit.

 

Twins fans do not even know what they have in Florimon. This guy is an absolute treat to watch defensively and I have no doubt in my mind that him and Dozier will build upon their chemistry from last year and you'll continue to see an amazing display of defense in our middle infield this year. Is that not what we have wanted for a long time? Stats aside, just watch the games, watch how Florimon plays defense. You don't need stats to see that the guy is a fantastic SS, you just need to understand how difficult it is to play SS at the level he plays it.

[Reider]

I agree with your sentiment about the defensive metrics. Simmons won over 5 games defensively if you look at defensive WAR. Carlos Gomez 4+ games helped him become the second most valuable player in the league last year according to total WAR. I have a hard time believing a player like that could be more valuable than Kershaw for example.

 

Regarding Florimon and the Twins view. I guess I don't see why we stand for a great defensive SS that is a complete liability at the plate when we would not stand for a below average SS that hits very well. It seem slike you could model out the difference between a guy like Florimon and compare him with a guy that hits much better, but may get a few more errors. May let a few more balls through, etc.

 

http://espn.go.com/mlb/war/leaders

Although I didn't appreciate JJ Hardy's defensive skill set as much as Florimon's, I was just fine with him as the Twins' SS. And I'd welcome him back. I enjoy watching balls fly into the bull pen as much as I do watching great plays defensively.

 

Folks who are not happy with Florimon, just remember that we had JJ Hardy and somebody in the front office (or on the bench?) decided that he would be better off playing for someone else. Instead of being unhappy with Florimon, perhaps your frustration should instead be directed towards the person(s) responsible for us giving up JJ Hardy.

[ashbury]

Instead of being unhappy with Florimon, perhaps your frustration should instead be directed towards the person(s) responsible for us giving up JJ Hardy.

 

Moderator's note: Florimon is the topic only as far as he relates to the subject of this thread, Escobar. Please don't throw out red meat to those who want to discuss the front office, pro and con. We like to allow latitude in tangents of discussion, but this is how threads go off the rails.