Phil Miller: players want Gardy back

[gunnarthor]

No evidence that Gardenhire has lost his players | 6-4-3 | StarTribune.com

 

From the article: "But one thing was pretty clear in the Twins' clubhouse this weekend: The players seem pretty solidly behind their manager. Nobody ever goes on the record with calls for firing the manager, of course, but the current roster seems pretty loyal to Gardenhire. There's no evidence of a whisper campaign against him, no sense that he's lost the clubhouse in the least. If that's true, even amid 291 losses over three seasons, it's pretty remarkable."

[Seth Stohs]

I was in there on Saturday, and there's no question that the players want to play for and want to win with Gardenhire. There's no questioning the effort of the coaches and manager. There's no questioning how much everyone cares. There's no questioning the effort of the players.

[Badsmerf]

Twins media machine at its best! Of course this article would preclude an announced extension for Gardy. I don't mind Gardy coming back. I have a bigger problem with Anderson and Terry Ryan.

[JB_Iowa]

After 3 seasons of more than 95 losses each, I really don't CARE if the players want him back. In fact, the players wanting him back is almost an indictment of him as far as I am concerned.

 

At this point, I WANT a manager who puts a little "fear of God" in the players. Someone who is not their buddy -- whether for golf or bowling or whatever.

 

I don't want war in the clubhouse but I want a VERY healthy respect.

[ThePuck]

After 3 seasons of more than 95 losses each, I really don't CARE if the players want him back. In fact, the players wanting him back is almost an indictment of him as far as I am concerned.

 

At this point, I WANT a manager who puts a little "fear of God" in the players. Someone who is not their buddy -- whether for golf or bowling or whatever.

 

I don't want war in the clubhouse but I want a VERY healthy respect.

 

What's weird is that just a couple offseasons ago, Gardy was talking about how players were defensive with him...didn't want to hear what he had to say and he even mentioned the players talking about him throwing them under the bus.

 

Now, magically, they all want him back. What are they supposed to say? What would you expect them to say?

[twinsfanstl]

And if these were your sons playing high school ball I'd say great! Effort at that level is everything. But at the MLB level, this status quo attitude is heartbreaking. There is no questioning that the organization is antiquated. There is no question the organization is overly conservative. There is no question that the current regime will never deviate from their blueprint which has yielded barely any playoff exposure since his tenure.

[LastOnePicked]

I was in there on Saturday, and there's no question that the players want to play for and want to win with Gardenhire. There's no questioning the effort of the coaches and manager. There's no questioning how much everyone cares. There's no questioning the effort of the players.

 

Seth, I'm just asking, but did you ask or observe the responses of Arcia, Pinto, Florimon or any of the non-white players? Seems like the local boys and the southern guys always get to speak for the entire team. Might be important to hear what the other players think, too.

[LastOnePicked]

Now, magically, they all want him back. What are they supposed to say? What would you expect them to say?

 

I'm really questioning if ALL of them are being asked. We might just be hearing from "Gardy's guys."

[Boom Boom]

Which players? Mauer and Perkins presumably will be here for a while, but who cares what Clete Thomas, Eric Fryer, Darin Mastroianni and Chris Colabello think of Gardy?

[Pius Jefferson]

Liking the manager is all well and good, but something isn't working right and it's not just the lack of talent. The Twins are one of the worst teams in the areas that don't require All-Star caliber talent to perform at a high level.

[Kwak]

Of course the players say "we want him back"! Loyalty is HUGE in MLB--especially to those of marginal/dubious ability. The difference of a MLB job ($500K/year) and a AAA job (at best) of maybe $50K/year is more than enough to command loyalty. Loyalty is the major reason Gardenhire would be/is retained. Consider he never really complained that he was handed a nearly useless Active Roster, or that he had to publicly support not only the FO but "key" players that were "deemed to be building blocks" despite player performance that clearly indicated otherwise.

[Kobs]

I don't want the players back.

[rickyriolo]

of course the players want Gardy back, they can lose 99,97,96 games a year and strike out all they want to and pitch to a 5+ ERA and guess what??? Every one has a job next year & the year after. Whoopie!!!!

[Brock Beauchamp]

I don't want the players back.

 

We have a winner.

[zenser]

I don't want the players back.

 

Why not? They are out there battling their tails off every night. Gardy tells us so.

 

I agree 100%. I don't want them back either.

[Winston Smith]

I was in there on Saturday, and there's no question that the players want to play for and want to win with Gardenhire. There's no questioning the effort of the coaches and manager. There's no questioning how much everyone cares. There's no questioning the effort of the players.

 

If there is no question of the effort and how much they care the only anwser is that some where there is a lot of incompetence. Otherwise why did we lose 99, 96 and 96 games?

[StormJH1]

Seth, I'm just asking, but did you ask or observe the responses of Arcia, Pinto, Florimon or any of the non-white players? Seems like the local boys and the southern guys always get to speak for the entire team. Might be important to hear what the other players think, too.

 

Yeah, that's just it. I've tiptoed uncomfortably around the race thing before, but it's not just coincidence that the guys up for long-term deals that actually got them were Mauer, Morneau, and some other midlevel deals (Willingham, Doumit, Cuddy, etc.), whereas there's basically no example of the Twins wanting to keep an African-American or Latin player and said player also wanting to sign here long-term. Yes, they offered big money to Hunter and Santana, but there are too many examples like Castillo, Hudson, Liriano, and on and on where it seemed the relationship should have gone better than it did. Then you see some of Gardy's criticism of Hicks' coachability early this year, and the 4-game benching of Sano in the minors, and you worry that there may be bigger cultural problems in the organization.

 

But the race thing really is speculation/conjecture, and it isn't the most important issue. The problem I have is the framing of the whole question. When you ask a whole team of guys who literally are fringe MLB'ers what they think of their employer in very public setting, I just don't see any value to their response.

[ThePuck]

Yeah, that's just it. I've tiptoed uncomfortably around the race thing before, but it's not just coincidence that the guys up for long-term deals that actually got them were Mauer, Morneau, and some other midlevel deals (Willingham, Doumit, Cuddy, etc.), whereas there's basically no example of the Twins wanting to keep an African-American or Latin player and said player also wanting to sign here long-term. Yes, they offered big money to Hunter and Santana, but there are too many examples like Castillo, Hudson, Liriano, and on and on where it seemed the relationship should have gone better than it did. Then you see some of Gardy's criticism of Hicks' coachability early this year, and the 4-game benching of Sano in the minors, and you worry that there may be bigger cultural problems in the organization.

 

But the race thing really is speculation/conjecture, and it isn't the most important issue. The problem I have is the framing of the whole question. When you ask a whole team of guys who literally are fringe MLB'ers what they think of their employer in very public setting, I just don't see any value to their response.

 

The offers they made to Hunter they knew he wouldn't take...not after ignoring him all offseason prior to 2007 when he wanted an extension and certainly not after the Castillo trade. Those offers were for show.

 

Having said that, I don't think those decisions were racially motivated.

[Linus]

If there is no question of the effort and how much they care the only anwser is that some where there is a lot of incompetence. Otherwise why did we lose 99, 96 and 96 games?

 

Um...because we don't have very good players. With the talent level currently on the roster, it doesn't matter who is managing the team or coaching the pitchers.

[gunnarthor]

Yeah, that's just it. I've tiptoed uncomfortably around the race thing before, but it's not just coincidence that the guys up for long-term deals that actually got them were Mauer, Morneau, and some other midlevel deals (Willingham, Doumit, Cuddy, etc.), whereas there's basically no example of the Twins wanting to keep an African-American or Latin player and said player also wanting to sign here long-term. Yes, they offered big money to Hunter and Santana, but there are too many examples like Castillo, Hudson, Liriano, and on and on where it seemed the relationship should have gone better than it did. Then you see some of Gardy's criticism of Hicks' coachability early this year, and the 4-game benching of Sano in the minors, and you worry that there may be bigger cultural problems in the organization.

 

But the race thing really is speculation/conjecture, and it isn't the most important issue. The problem I have is the framing of the whole question. When you ask a whole team of guys who literally are fringe MLB'ers what they think of their employer in very public setting, I just don't see any value to their response.

 

Well, first, the Twins did extend Santana and Hunter. Everyday Eddie was here forever. As was Hawkins. They traded for and resigned Stewart. But I get your point.

 

I think there might be something about the Latin American born players and Gardy. Maybe an inability to relate. I'd disagree on the African American players. Besides extending Hunter, when Hunter ripped MLB a few years ago when he was in LAA, the Star Tribune interviewed him and he specifically said that Gardy and the Twins were one of the few teams doing good things for African American players. They were heavily involved in MLB's inner city baseball program, Deron Johnson is one of the few African American draft guru's in baseball.

 

But if you look at the teams from the Gardy era, there are a lot of minority players. Guzman was an all-star, Rivas stuck around too long for most, Reyes was an extremely successful reclamation project. Silva got a huge FA deal to leave us. etc. So I'm not sure.

[ThePuck]

Um...because we don't have very good players. With the talent level currently on the roster, it doesn't matter who is managing the team or coaching the pitchers.

 

Wasn't everyone saying that about the Orioles before Buck showed up and about the Indians before Francona showed up?

[chopper0080]

It is a bit extreme, but losers stick with losers because if not, they would have a hard time looking in the mirror. Also, I know he is a nice guy, but Joe Mauer not demanding a trade or being vocal about the directon of this franchise says something to me about his leadership. How you could be a superstar player and not do something extreme to be on a competitive team is beyond me.

 

If the Twins want to get better than they better open their pocketbooks this offseason because they have nothing else to offer free agents. Why would Tanaka want to sign here? Same goes for Lincecum or Josh Johnson?

[chopper0080]

Wasn't everyone saying that about the Orioles before Buck showed up and about the Indians before Francona showed up?

 

Agreed though I am not sure it was as much because of the improvement of the manager, but having a new boss generally makes people put forth their best. As a manager you tend to get the best results when your people are uncertain of yor commitment to them. Bringing someone else in would probably only incrementally improved the management of the team, but would have brought a fresh message and kicked the complacency out of this team's butt.

[LastOnePicked]

Then you see some of Gardy's criticism of Hicks' coachability early this year, and the 4-game benching of Sano in the minors, and you worry that there may be bigger cultural problems in the organization.

 

Bingo. The Twins are a classic insider's society. Today's decision (what am I saying? this was decided months ago) to retain all staff will provide barriers to the development to those considered cultural outsiders. Expect Sano, Buxton, Rosario, Berrios, et. al. to have great careers -- once they've left the organization.

[Linus]

Yeah, that's just it. I've tiptoed uncomfortably around the race thing before, but it's not just coincidence that the guys up for long-term deals that actually got them were Mauer, Morneau, and some other midlevel deals (Willingham, Doumit, Cuddy, etc.), whereas there's basically no example of the Twins wanting to keep an African-American or Latin player and said player also wanting to sign here long-term. Yes, they offered big money to Hunter and Santana, but there are too many examples like Castillo, Hudson, Liriano, and on and on where it seemed the relationship should have gone better than it did. Then you see some of Gardy's criticism of Hicks' coachability early this year, and the 4-game benching of Sano in the minors, and you worry that there may be bigger cultural problems in the organization.

 

But the race thing really is speculation/conjecture, and it isn't the most important issue. The problem I have is the framing of the whole question. When you ask a whole team of guys who literally are fringe MLB'ers what they think of their employer in very public setting, I just don't see any value to their response.

 

I think speculation about this is not good. We have no idea what Gardy believes about this and to casually speculate he has a racial bias is unfair. Its one thing to assert without evidence various baseball issue, quite another to cross over into asserting things about race without a shred of evidence.

[Linus]

Wasn't everyone saying that about the Orioles before Buck showed up and about the Indians before Francona showed up?

 

Well, their roster wasn't the same for starters. I'm pretty sure that Buck Showalter or Terry Francona would have won a similar number of games had they been managing the Twins this year.imilar experience if they were managing the Twins this year. We don't have very good players and a different manager is doesn't change that.

[Guest USAFChief]

I was in there on Saturday, and there's no question that the players want to play for and want to win with Gardenhire. There's no questioning the effort of the coaches and manager. There's no questioning how much everyone cares. There's no questioning the effort of the players.

 

I wasn't there Saturday but I question several of those things.

[Mike Sixel]

Well, their roster wasn't the same for starters. I'm pretty sure that Buck Showalter or Terry Francona would have won a similar number of games had they been managing the Twins this year.imilar experience if they were managing the Twins this year. We don't have very good players and a different manager is doesn't change that.

 

What does a manager do, if not make the players better? I mean, if he is not responsible at all for the onfield play, why pay them so much? Why have one at all?

[scottz]

Yeah, that's just it. I've tiptoed uncomfortably around the race thing before, but it's not just coincidence that the guys up for long-term deals that actually got them were Mauer, Morneau, and some other midlevel deals (Willingham, Doumit, Cuddy, etc.), whereas there's basically no example of the Twins wanting to keep an African-American or Latin player and said player also wanting to sign here long-term. Yes, they offered big money to Hunter and Santana, but there are too many examples like Castillo, Hudson, Liriano, and on and on where it seemed the relationship should have gone better than it did. Then you see some of Gardy's criticism of Hicks' coachability early this year, and the 4-game benching of Sano in the minors, and you worry that there may be bigger cultural problems in the organization.

 

But the race thing really is speculation/conjecture, and it isn't the most important issue. The problem I have is the framing of the whole question. When you ask a whole team of guys who literally are fringe MLB'ers what they think of their employer in very public setting, I just don't see any value to their response.

 

I've gone down this thought process myself - I was pretty certain there had to be a racial bias/cultural bias thing with Gardy. But looking at it now, I don't think that is the case. I think the problem is the inability to relate to/get the most out of players who have large egos or personalities.

 

Now, in some cases those large egos/personalities appeared to outsize their talent (I'm specifically thinking about Valencia). But in other cases, the player's talent seemed to be brought out when their personality was allowed to flourish (here, I'm thinking of Big Papi or Gomez). I don't think race has anything to do with it.

 

A manager's job is to get the most out of his team. If you can't get the most out of a specific personality type, that's a problem. Especially when one of your 2 top prospects is nicknamed Big Mouth. Buxton, on the other hand, would do absolutely fine with Gardy from a personality standpoint.

[Danchat]

Twins media machine at its best! Of course this article would preclude an announced extension for Gardy. I don't mind Gardy coming back. I have a bigger problem with Anderson and Terry Ryan.

 

It's too bad I can only hit the like button once, because I would have hit it 5 times if it were possible.