Willingham on waivers

[Dman]

Clearly the Orioles thought if they could get Willingham for a decent price he could help them down the stretch and if he had a better year next year flip him for a decent return.

 

Did TR just not like anything they had to offer? or was he afraid if he didn't get a good enough return the Orioles might make him look bad next year by getting something better than he managed to in trade. I am guessing it is easier on the ego to only trade players in the last year of there contract if you do not need to dump payroll as another GM could show you up IMHO. He had to make sure he was getting a return that they could not get if Willingham had a good year next year.

[rickyriolo]

I would have taken Xavier Avery for Willingham. We need an extra outfielder for the upcoming series in texas and beyond. Willingham is not part of the future can what you can while you can

[howieramone1406390264]

Yeah, I don't get the desire to have the "safe" choice at 1B?

If we were a playoff caliber team, then I could see it, because you might not want to take a risk that could cost you a win or two, which could then cost you a playoff spot.

But as a rebuilding team that will likely lose 90+ games again next year, why would you want the "safe" option, with no upside?

It seems to me that is the optimal time to pass up the safe choice for the more "risky" choice, since you have nothing to lose if that risk turns into a massive bust. But if the risk pays off, you've possibly found a future piece of the organization that you might otherwise not have found.

One of the reasons we have let some good players get away recently (Gomez, Hardy, etc.) is because we were in the playoff hunt those years, and couldn't afford to take as many risks. That is also one of (many) the reasons we are in the boat we are in now.

Now is the time to take those risks.

 

Very unlikely a team with Buxton and Sano on it ever lose 90+ games.

[AROG]

I would have taken Xavier Avery for Willingham. We need an extra outfielder for the upcoming series in texas and beyond. Willingham is not part of the future can what you can while you can

 

I wouldn't make that trade at all. We have more then enough guys that can hit for no power and no average. That was a sluff piece that Seattle got instead of just sending Morse away for nothing.

[jokin]

Very unlikely a team with Buxton and Sano on it ever lose 90+ games.

 

I would hazard a guess that this identical argument was made by many right after the 2010 season about 2 certain other Twins players (we all know who), except they were already established veterans.

 

Even if both Sano and Buxton play more than 50% of the Twins' schedule next year (highly unlikely itself), without the additional unlikely happenstances of:

 

1) significant personnel upgrades (via trade or FA? both seem inoperative options and/or highly unlikely),

2)other impact rookie/2nd year player breathroughs, and,

3)strong bounceback years from this years' slumping veterans,

 

another miserable W-L record in 2014 seems pretty inevitable.

[ThePuck]

I would hazard a guess that this identical argument was made by many right after the 2010 season about 2 certain other Twins players (we all know who), except they were already established veterans.

 

Are Sano and Buxton going to be on the mound? :-)

 

Besides the highlighted part of Mr. Brooks statement specifically said NEXT year. Sano and Buxton won't even be with the team a full season...

[Alex]

Very unlikely a team with Buxton and Sano on it ever lose 90+ games.

 

Do you think they'll both be up and playing at elite levels next year? Right now, I personally tend to think they won't be, not to start at the very least and maybe not until September, if at all.

 

I don't have much hope for next season and think a fourth straight 90 loss season is possible. It's hard to imagine it being worse or this bad again, but I said the same thing about last season as well. Key players are older for the most part and there are no prospects who I feel confident will succeed and be a major improvement over what we have now except Arcia (though I'd like to see if Parmelee can be). And, as Puck mentions, they still need pitching.

 

I realize some people have said Ryan will be more aggressive in FA this year, but I'll believe it when I see it.

[jokin]

I'm actually relieved that Willingham wasn't moved at what is likely the low ebb value of his current contract. To Terry Ryan's credit, he didn't scuttle Josh, as Bill Smith did Thome, for $20,000. There's still potential value left in Willingham to the Twins, just as there was for Thome.

[ThePuck]

Do you think they'll both be up and playing at elite levels next year? Right now, I personally tend to think they won't be, not to start at the very least and maybe not until September, if at all.

 

I don't have much hope for next season and think a fourth straight 90 loss season is possible. It's hard to imagine it being worse or this bad again, but I said the same thing about last season as well. Key players are older for the most part and there are no prospects who I feel confident will succeed and be a major improvement over what we have now except Arcia (though I'd like to see if Parmelee can be). And, as Puck mentions, they still need pitching.

 

I realize some people have said Ryan will be more aggressive in FA this year, but I'll believe it when I see it.

 

Yup, still need pitching

-Twins rotation still has the worst ERA in baseball. Still over 5.00.

-Twins rotation still has the worst BAA. Still over .300

-Twins rotation still has the least amount of IP.

-Twins rotation still has the worst WHIP.

-Twins rotation still has, by far, the least amount of strikeouts. 121 less than the 29th ranked team in Ks. Putting that into perspective. The difference between the 29th ranked team in rotation Ks and the the 16th ranked team in rotation Ks is 121.

 

I wonder how bad the rotation would have been if Ryan didn't put so much effort into improving it this past offseason...

[AROG]

I'm actually relieved that Willingham wasn't moved at what is likely the low ebb value of his current contract. To Terry Ryan's credit, he didn't scuttle Josh, as Bill Smith did Thome, for $20,000. There's still potential value left in Willingham to the Twins, just as there was for Thome.

 

Absolutely, and if we have players that are truly deserving of the opportunity and pushing for AB's next year, hopefully he will have a fast start and we can trade him at high value.

[maxisagod]

I'm actually relieved that Willingham wasn't moved at what is likely the low ebb value of his current contract. To Terry Ryan's credit, he didn't scuttle Josh, as Bill Smith did Thome, for $20,000. There's still potential value left in Willingham to the Twins, just as there was for Thome.

 

This.

 

Willngham isn't completely wasted money.

If I were to guess, Terry was asked to eat a lot of Willingham's contact. So the question becomes, what pitching prospect is worth let say 4.5 million dollars? The name Terry and his scouts came up with was Eduardo Rodriguez.

[ashbury]

If the O's are trying to get both Willingham and Morneau then would Dylan Bundy be on the table?

 

Would you believe, Xavier Avery (say that five times fast) plus a PTBNL.

[Monkeypaws]

Yup, still need pitching

-Twins rotation still has the worst ERA in baseball. Still over 5.00.

-Twins rotation still has the worst BAA. Still over .300

-Twins rotation still has the least amount of IP.

-Twins rotation still has the worst WHIP.

-Twins rotation still has, by far, the least amount of strikeouts. 121 less than the 29th ranked team in Ks. Putting that into perspective. The difference between the 29th ranked team in rotation Ks and the the 16th ranked team in rotation Ks is 121.

 

I wonder how bad the rotation would have been if Ryan didn't put so much effort into improving it this past offseason...

 

Thank god for Correia - how bad would it look without him?

[Mr. Brooks]

It matters because I think most of us hope the FO signs more than Josh Johnson.

 

"Hope" being the keyword.

I truly expect that payroll will once again be slashed next year, or best case scenario it remains right around what it is this year.

[Mr. Brooks]

Very unlikely a team with Buxton and Sano on it ever lose 90+ games.

 

Sano and Buxton in their prime years, I agree.

Sano likely won't be up until June, and I think it's a longshot that Buxton is up before September.

 

Even if they go on to become superstars, there is no guarantee that they are elite players right out of the gate.

Even Mike Trout struggled in his first taste of the big leagues.

 

Even in a best case scenario, and they don't struggle, 3.5 months of Sano instead of Plouffe is worth maybe 2 wins, and 1 month of Buxton instead of Thomas/Ramirez/Mastro is worth less than 1 win.

[ThePuck]

"Hope" being the keyword.

I truly expect that payroll will once again be slashed next year, or best case scenario it remains right around what it is this year.

 

With all the money coming off the books, they would have to spend a lot to get it back up to where it is now.

[Mr. Brooks]

Absolutely, and if we have players that are truly deserving of the opportunity and pushing for AB's next year, hopefully he will have a fast start and we can trade him at high value.

 

I'm not sure Ryan will be capable of pulling the trigger.

His asking price, IMO, was already too high even if Willingham was having another year similar to 2012 (which, obviously he's not), so logic would suggest it will go even higher if he has a bounce back season next year.

Plus, he's already shown (with Morneau), that he won't simply take the best he can get because a guy is in his walk year. He's shown that he'll "stand his ground" if his asking price is not met, and let a guy walk for nothing.

So, to me there is no guarantee that we get anything for Willingham even if he does get off to a great start next year.

There is a reason we got Willingham for 3/21 as a FA. Even at his best, he's a nice player, but not really anything special, because he is so one dimensional. And it's not like that one dimension is 50 HR power, it's 25 to 30 HR power, which is nice to have, but not elite from a pure DH, which on a team that places any value on defense would be the only place he belongs.

[Mr. Brooks]

With all the money coming off the books, they would have to spend a lot to get it back up to where it is now.

 

But even then it would leave plenty of money to "overpay" for a lotto ticket like Johnson.

[ThePuck]

But even then it would leave plenty of money to "overpay" for a lotto ticket like Johnson.

 

It would for sure...but I doubt our GM goes past what he thinks any FA is worth, in years or dollars, regardless of available funds. Doesn't matter whether or not his opinion of what the player is worth is anywhere near accurate or not. He can just keep saying, MAN I can't believe X player got THAT...I can't GIVE our money away...

[RedBull34]

I think that the Twins asked an appropriate cost for this trade. I also wouldn't have taken it if I were the Orioles. Just because two teams talk, doesn't mean a trade has to happen. If the Twins were supposed to eat Hammer's salary, they easily should have gotten a better player then Avery since 1. Hammer is better then Morse. 2. Hammer has another contract. 3. 7 mil plus the remainder of this year is more then what the Phillies just signed Gonzalez to a contract for. But the O's didn't want to mortgage the future for the present (wisely), so they would not pay up.

[Mr. Brooks]

Can I get a link please to the sources that are reporting that the Twins were asked to eat any or all of Willingham's salary?

I keep seeing that thrown around in here, and I'm trying to figure out why that is the working assumption.

[Mr. Brooks]

I think that the Twins asked an appropriate cost for this trade. I also wouldn't have taken it if I were the Orioles. Just because two teams talk, doesn't mean a trade has to happen. If the Twins were supposed to eat Hammer's salary, they easily should have gotten a better player then Avery since 1. Hammer is better then Morse. 2. Hammer has another contract. 3. 7 mil plus the remainder of this year is more then what the Phillies just signed Gonzalez to a contract for. But the O's didn't want to mortgage the future for the present (wisely), so they would not pay up.

 

I disagree about that being an appropriate asking price.

That is the price that you would ask for an elite player, not a nice, but limited player like Willingham.

[RedBull34]

I disagree about that being an appropriate asking price.

That is the price that you would ask for an elite player, not a nice, but limited player like Willingham.

If this was Willingham next season, then yes this would be an appropriate asking price. But there is an extra year of control too, and that has to be worth something. Perhaps not a jump from their #10 to their #3 but certainly an increase in price. I just don't think the O's were willing to part with anything of real value (I don't even know if Avery would place top 20 in the Twins system, he seems to have fallen apart, I mean he hasn't posted a full season OPS over .700 since 2010.) But the Twins shouldn't deal away a player with an extra year of control just to deal him (Morneau on the other hand...)

[jorgenswest]

Picking up salary didn't matter. By claiming him, the Orioles were willing to take on entire salary.

 

They had the following goals.

 

-Find a right handed bat.

-Block the A's from getting an OF to plug in for Reddick

-Give up as little in prospects as possible

 

I think the Orioles did a great job of meeting those goals. They blocked the A's by claiming both Morse and Willingham. Morse was cheap in terms of prospects because he was a loan. There was no motivation to deal for Willingham with Morse. They had achieved their Willingham goal by blocking him for the A's. They were probably gambling that the Twins would not stick me with the contract.

 

The Orioles played this perfectly. The only option the Twins had was to give up Willingham. I think the Orioles were pleased that the Twins recalled him off waivers.

[Danchat]

MLB Trade Rumors reports the Twins asking price was too high. We wanted to claim Eduardo Rodriguez, one of their best pitching prospects. Not surprisingly, TR was too stubborn to make a move. Well, it's not that bad, Willingham could be better than a bag of balls next year.

[Mr. Brooks]

If this was Willingham next season, then yes this would be an appropriate asking price. But there is an extra year of control too, and that has to be worth something. Perhaps not a jump from their #10 to their #3 but certainly an increase in price. I just don't think the O's were willing to part with anything of real value (I don't even know if Avery would place top 20 in the Twins system, he seems to have fallen apart, I mean he hasn't posted a full season OPS over .700 since 2010.) But the Twins shouldn't deal away a player with an extra year of control just to deal him (Morneau on the other hand...)

 

I completely agree with the bolded, and have said as much.

I just don't think "good" GM's waste everyone's time by putting a guy on waivers, then demanding an absurd asking price for him, a price so high he knows darn well it will never be accepted.

Is that how you gain respect among other GM's? I dunno, perhaps this is common place, if it is then obviously I'm blowing this way out of proportion.

But, I run a business, and I know that I would be at least annoyed, if not angered, if people played these kind of games with me.

[jokin]

Picking up salary didn't matter. By claiming him, the Orioles were willing to take on entire salary.

 

They had the following goals.

 

-Find a right handed bat.

-Block the A's from getting an OF to plug in for Reddick

-Give up as little in prospects as possible

 

I think the Orioles did a great job of meeting those goals. They blocked the A's by claiming both Morse and Willingham. Morse was cheap in terms of prospects because he was a loan. There was no motivation to deal for Willingham with Morse. They had achieved their Willingham goal by blocking him for the A's. They were probably gambling that the Twins would not stick me with the contract.

 

The Orioles played this perfectly. The only option the Twins had was to give up Willingham. I think the Orioles were pleased that the Twins recalled him off waivers.

 

Which brings up the question, couldn't the Twins have blocked that Orioles move by claiming Morse? (A guy who they should be considering in the off-season anyway?

[John Bonnes]

Which brings up the question, couldn't the Twins have blocked that Orioles move by claiming Morse? (A guy who they should be considering in the off-season anyway?

 

That's a very interesting point. I don't think I've ever seen a case where a non-contending team blocked a contending team from a waiver pickup so they could keep their guy front and center. But it would work - provided the Mariners didn't then block Willingham.

[Mr. Brooks]

Which brings up the question, couldn't the Twins have blocked that Orioles move by claiming Morse? (A guy who they should be considering in the off-season anyway?

 

Not trying to take cheap shots, but I really don't think the Twins FO is capable of thinking that far outside the box. Sorry, but I just don't think they even considered that.

 

Not to mention, that judging by their asking price, they didn't have any serious intentions of trading him to begin with.

[Mr. Brooks]

That's a very interesting point. I don't think I've ever seen a case where a non-contending team blocked a contending team from a waiver pickup so they could keep their guy front and center. But it would work - provided the Mariners didn't then block Willingham.

 

The Mariners wouldn't know that we had claimed Morse until it was too late, I believe.