Twins coaching staff and front office meeting today

[jokin]

Call them what you want, baseball teams are businesses. The Dodgers have proven beyond the shadow of a doubt that you simply cannot indiscriminately throw money at a roster and expect to be great. The Yankees and Red Sox have both had similar seasons in recent memory. Fiscal responsibility will, in the long run, both make money for the owner and organization (priority #1 for any business) and put a better product on the field (priority #2 for this particular business). Does any sane person actually think the Twins don't want to win another championship? Of course not. But there are correct ways to go about running this type of business, and throwing away money on free agents (that have largely been terrible this year) last offseason is not conducive to that success. Write this down, because it's important. The Twins don't owe me, you, or anyone else anything. They will continue to try to be as good a team as they can and make as much money as they can. That is the nature of the baseball business. Any fan over the age of 14 or so should have a pretty good grasp on that, but based on the posts on this message board, that is apparently not the case.

 

Any fan over the age of 14 should agree with you and your take only...? Got it. Condescension is the key to winning an argument. I'll be sure to write that down.

 

You somehow failed to answer any of my points, so sure that only if I write down your bromide, that I will somehow have encapsulated Preusser's Secret Formula for "correct" baseball success.

 

Specifically, with the Twins it is demonstrably evident that they haven't tried to "be as good a team as they can" since the end of 2011. And sorry, the Twins do owe the community something. If they fail to live up to their promises leading up to the stadium debut, it will (& already has) come back to bite them where it hurts. That's the nature of being a good corporate citizen that follows up on its public commitments, and, baseball. Any fan over 14 who has an understanding of how a local business that, in particular- focuses its financial interests on mass-participation-revenue-generating sports entertainment, builds and retains good will based on that social contract- should have a pretty good grasp on that.

[pab]

(Gardy again never looks at splits)

 

There are a lot of ridiculous statements in this thread, but I'm pretty sure this one takes the cake.

[Joe A. Preusser]

If you go to the mlb site you can read, his mismanagement of the pitching staff is the main culprit of his handling or responsibility of losing games, but he has made a few other mistakes , such as not bunt in certian situations....11 by count so far, now im not gonna say we win all 11 , but lets say we win 6 ? where would we be ....the fact Ron is doing better this year , just shows how incompetent he is

 

Gonna need a link please.

[ThePuck]

Dodgers, Angels, Red Sox and Yankees make way more money than our team even after payroll. They spend it cause they have it, because they are dedicated to at least trying to have a competitive team, AND they still make much more money due to TV contracts and/or owning their own TV stations making them big money. Fiscal irresponsibility doesn't apply to them regardless of their payroll because they are still rolling in dough.

 

On top of that, I don't see anyone saying we should spend like them...only that they should spend the percentage they said they would.

[Joe A. Preusser]

Any fan over the age of 14 should agree with you and your take only...? Got it. Condescension is the key to winning an argument. I'll be sure to write that down.

 

You somehow failed to answer any of my points, so sure that only if I write down your bromide, that I will somehow have encapsulated Preusser's Secret Formula for "correct" baseball success.

 

Specifically, with the Twins it is demonstrably evident that they haven't tried to "be as good a team as they can" since the end of 2011. And sorry, the Twins do owe the community something. If they fail to live up to their promises leading up to the stadium debut, it will (& already has) come back to bite them where it hurts. That's the nature of being a good corporate citizen that follows up on its public commitments, and, baseball. Any fan over 14 who has an understanding of how a local business that, in particular- focuses its financial interests on mass-participation-revenue-generating sports entertainment, builds and retains good will based on that social contract- should have a pretty good grasp on that.

 

What is boils down to is that you and many other fans expect the team to win first, make money second. That is simply not the way it works in the real world.

 

Of course the Twins care about community image, any good business would. But companies don't generally do things for the community out of the goodness of their heart. They do so because in the long run that goodwill will make them more money. When the Twins were asking for funding help for a stadium they implied the extra revenue could and would be used to put a better team on the field. That doesn't mean spending to spend. That doesn't mean making second rate decisions in an attempt to buy a few more wins. It does mean making correct decision and when the opportunity presents itself, spending more than they would/could have had they still been in the dome. Anyone who thought different did not fully understand the situation or the "promises."

[Mike Sixel]

Ryan spent the money from 2002 to the end of 2007. Smith spent the money in 2008-09 and went over the soft cap in 2010 and 2011. When Smith went over the cap (e.g., signing Hudson and Thome), he got explicit sign off from Jim to do it. Ryan took over and has been under the soft cap since. I don't think the philosophical difference was about spending money. You can count this as a trend or a short-term adjustment. i count it as the latter, and I believe there are good reasons for it, which I have hashed and rehashed ad nauseum.

 

If not about money, what was the philosophical difference. Well, to use TR's words "I will be very similar to Bill. I might be a little more patient, but otherwise, we will work in similar ways." Smith did things we would never see Ryan do: e.g. trade Ramos for Capps. Ryan focuses on the long term, and we have certainly seen that since he tool over. That's the philosophical difference.

 

I hope you are right, but I'll believe Ryan will be like McPhail and add legit talent when they are close the first time he does it.....

[Mike Sixel]

What is boils down to is that you and many other fans expect the team to win first, make money second. That is simply not the way it works in the real world.

 

Of course the Twins care about community image, any good business would. But companies don't generally do things for the community out of the goodness of their heart. They do so because in the long run that goodwill will make them more money. When the Twins were asking for funding help for a stadium they implied the extra revenue could and would be used to put a better team on the field. That doesn't mean spending to spend. That doesn't mean making second rate decisions in an attempt to buy a few more wins. It does mean making correct decision and when the opportunity presents itself, spending more than they would/could have had they still been in the dome. Anyone who thought different did not fully understand the situation or the "promises."

 

You really think we don't know this is a business? They get $25MM more for free next year. Not one penny of capital was invested to get that. You think the payroll is going up, or down?

[Mike Sixel]

so many threads where this could go, but I choose here:

 

Dave Cameron: Don’t think Morneau has any value, so no real conundrum there. They should move Willingham. Well, they should have moved him over the winter, really.

[Riverbrian]

Wow... This thread really exploded... Ka-Boom...

 

I continue to not care about Payroll. That's probably my own personal weakness but it is what it is.

 

As for the Meeting... I imagine with the demanding and separate schedules kept by Manager/Coaches and Front office. Formal meetings probably don't happen as often as they'd like but who knows.

 

But, I'd be surprised to find out that un-formal meetings such as phone calls, emails, face to face one on one meetings don't happen all the time... These little discussions most likely occur so often that the actual formal meeting yields little surprises or changes.

 

Just a guess... If not...there would certainly be a communication issue. I assume there isn't.

[nicksaviking]

Conspiracy Nut:s-instagib:

 

Stop it with all the fact-finding already, just trying to confuse those who want to be taken seriously.

 

I know it, I don't believe in Bigfoot, Atlantis or a government induced 911 attack but I do believe that many wealthy business mens' primary goal is to become more wealthy. All those things just seem like equally large leaps of logic but I can't help my gullibility on that last one.

[Joe A. Preusser]

You really think we don't know this is a business? They get $25MM more for free next year. Not one penny of capital was invested to get that. You think the payroll is going up, or down?

 

Honestly, I don't think many people on here understand just how much of a business baseball is. They see it as a game, one they want their team to win, money be damned.

 

Case in point:

"They get 25MM for free next year." You mean the business found new income that will earn them 25MM more next year? Does your company get crushed for not dumping every new revenue stream into R&D? Mine sure doesn't, they run the business in the most profitable way possible and give the customer the best product available. So do the Twins.

[Red Bull]

Honestly, I don't think many people on here understand just how much of a business baseball is. They see it as a game, one they want their team to win, money be damned.

 

Case in point:

"They get 25MM for free next year." You mean the business found new income that will earn them 25MM more next year? Does your company get crushed for not dumping every new revenue stream into R&D? Mine sure doesn't, they run the business in the most profitable way possible and give the customer the best product available. So do the Twins.

 

Twins do not give the customer the best product available because they dont spend nearly as much as teams that make as much as them. Over the last 4 years the Twins have been ranked 4th, 6th, 12th and now 15th in AVG home attendance. Which means over those 4 years they have been in the top 10 for AVG home attendance. But the funny thing is every year in those 4 years they have cut salary. They should be spending alot more than they are.

 

Hopefully they are just cutting the payroll while we are in rebuild mode then when all of our prospects are up and we are ready to contend they will get some top FAs and makes some Trades to give us a shot at a WS.

[ashbury]

Does your company get crushed for not dumping every new revenue stream into R&D? Mine sure doesn't, they run the business in the most profitable way possible and give the customer the best product available. So do the Twins.

 

Your company probably isn't in a syndicate with 29 other companies in what I've seen called "co-opetition".

[beckmt]

Do not read too much into the meetings. Trades for the sake of trades are not a good thing. As far as spending more money, believe the Twins will do that when they have a chance to compete. Major league attendance does not equal the same money. Remember ticket prices are much higher on the coasts than here. This is the sort out year, finding out who can contribute in the future and who will fall be the wayside. Pitching has been very good this month, but hitting has not been consistent.

[JB_Iowa]

Wow, not going to quote everything but it is hard to see that the Twins are giving the "customer the best product available." If this is the best product available, there's no use anybody ever buying the product.

 

But, home attendance is not the be all and end all in terms of spending, either. The Twins, whether because they are lousy TV contract negotiators or whether it is because of the size and demographics of the market, simply do not generate the local TV revenues that some of the other markets do.

 

That, however, is not a justification for the budget cut this year.

[Thrylos]

I don't know, what has Gardy done well this year? .

 

This year? You can put the "?" after the well and you would be right.

I saw the title of this post and I was hoping that the FO was discussing the fate of Gardy and his buddies today... Alas.

[Guest USAFChief]

Call them what you want, baseball teams are businesses. The Dodgers have proven beyond the shadow of a doubt that you simply cannot indiscriminately throw money at a roster and expect to be great. The Yankees and Red Sox have both had similar seasons in recent memory. Fiscal responsibility will, in the long run, both make money for the owner and organization (priority #1 for any business) and put a better product on the field (priority #2 for this particular business). Does any sane person actually think the Twins don't want to win another championship? Of course not. But there are correct ways to go about running this type of business, and throwing away money on free agents (that have largely been terrible this year) last offseason is not conducive to that success. Write this down, because it's important. The Twins don't owe me, you, or anyone else anything. They will continue to try to be as good a team as they can and make as much money as they can. That is the nature of the baseball business. Any fan over the age of 14 or so should have a pretty good grasp on that, but based on the posts on this message board, that is apparently not the case.

 

Are you really going to hold out the Red Sox and Yankees as examples of "spending doesn't work?"

 

Boston: Had a terrible season in 2012. Prior to that: 14 consecutive winning seasons (and 16 of 17.) 10 of those seasons with 90 or more wins. 8 postseasons, 5 ALCS's and 2 WS's. Currently leading the AL East.

 

Yankees: 20 consecutive winning seasons coming into 2013, currently above .500 despite massive injuries. 15 of those seasons at 90 or more wins, including 5 seasons at or above 100 wins (114 wins once.) 17 playoff seasons, 10 ALCSs, 7 WS.

 

"The Dodgers have proven beyond the shadow of a doubt that you simply cannot indiscriminately throw money at a roster and expect to be great."

 

No, my brother...they have "proven" no such thing. In fact, they're more the exception than the rule...money has proven to be a pretty solid method to winning in major league baseball. Not to mention, 2013 isn't even half over yet, and the Dodgers were 10 games over .500 as recently as 2012.

[a-wan]

No, my brother...they have "proven" no such thing. In fact, they're more the exception than the rule...money has proven to be a pretty solid method to winning in major league baseball. Not to mention, 2013 isn't even half over yet, and the Dodgers were 10 games over .500 as recently as 2012.

 

 

So to summarize, you're saying spending stupid is bad, but spending smartly isn't?

[Guest USAFChief]

So to summarize, you're saying spending stupid is bad, but spending smartly isn't?

I'm saying the rationale of "spending doesn't work" is...poorly thought out, to put it mildly.

[drjim]

Twins do not give the customer the best product available because they dont spend nearly as much as teams that make as much as them. Over the last 4 years the Twins have been ranked 4th, 6th, 12th and now 15th in AVG home attendance. Which means over those 4 years they have been in the top 10 for AVG home attendance. But the funny thing is every year in those 4 years they have cut salary. They should be spending alot more than they are.

 

Hopefully they are just cutting the payroll while we are in rebuild mode then when all of our prospects are up and we are ready to contend they will get some top FAs and makes some Trades to give us a shot at a WS.

 

I recommend looking at the size of TV contracts. That drives payroll much more than attendance.

[drjim]

My favorite post in this thread was the implication that Smith got fired because he spends too much money. That gave me a chuckle.

 

I also love the conspiracy theory type thoughts involving payroll and profiteering. That never gets old, boring or tired.

[Seth Stohs]

I recommend looking at the size of TV contracts. That drives payroll much more than attendance.

 

Absolutely correct.

[jokin]

so many threads where this could go, but I choose here:

 

Dave Cameron: Don’t think Morneau has any value, so no real conundrum there. They should move Willingham. Well, they should have moved him over the winter, really.

 

Cameron would garner more credibility if he had said this over the winter, as many of us actually did right here on TD.

[jokin]

Honestly, I don't think many people on here understand just how much of a business baseball is. They see it as a game, one they want their team to win, money be damned.

 

Case in point:

"They get 25MM for free next year." You mean the business found new income that will earn them 25MM more next year? Does your company get crushed for not dumping every new revenue stream into R&D? Mine sure doesn't, they run the business in the most profitable way possible and give the customer the best product available. So do the Twins.

 

Your responses really demonstrate the fact that you really don't understand the nature of the business that is Major League Baseball. FYI, it is an oligopoly, with an exemption from the federal antitrust laws. I'm guessing your business doesn't resemble this business model.

[greengoblinrulz]

I bring up payroll as much as anyone, but its not spending to spend....its how/whom they spend it on.

It would also make fans more leniant if for example....they save 30m this yr on payroll but once they got better, they'ld spend THAT money to put them over.

For me, I get somewhat bitter on payroll ONLY cause Terry Ryan has NEVER spent money & he prefers the cheap ways of the Metrodome (or so it seems).

Im not saying Annibal Sanchez signings, but not Mike Pelfrey, Jason Marquis, Ramon Ortiz, Sidney Ponson types every time a pitcher is signed or dipping into AAA for Sam Deduno, PJ Walters types. Sign a legit pitcher to a smaller yr bigger contract just once in a while.

[Shane Wahl]

Yup gimpy knee and his .210 average and being 37th among home run leaders...guess they will all line up offering there #1 prospect for that?

 

Did I say No. 1 prospect? How is that the only value back in a trade? What a totally ridiculous strawman bunch of garbage. Getting a Tyler Duffey or Danny Ortiz type back is possible. Stop being ridiculous.

[Shane Wahl]

I agree with Johnny on this one. Hard to envision Hammer putting up any worse numbers the rest of the year or next year. We get a C prospect with limited upside for him right now, which is basically nothing.

 

Do you even know what a "C prospect" is?

[Highabove]

Reported by Edgar Linares April 7 2011 WCCO Radio

The cost to go to a Minnesota Twins game ranks among the priciest in the nation.

 

The Twins are No. 6 in the nation for priciest ticket, according to a Team Marketing Report. The survey, conducted by a sportshttp://images.intellitxt.com/ast/adTypes/icon1.png marketing firm in Chicago, finds the average price for a non-premium seat at Target Field is $33.04.

Minnesota Twins spokesman Kevin Smith said there are a number of factors that went into the pricing.

“Absolutely, we have a new stadiumhttp://images.intellitxt.com/ast/adTypes/icon1.png, which we are in charge of maintaining now (and) a payroll of over $100 million,” said Smith. “We just thought that ticket pricing was the best we could do.”

------------------------------------------------------------------------

So let me get this straight, the Twins say they need the high ticket prices to support a larger payroll.

But now, the payroll is heading back to pre Target Field levels. But of course, the ticket prices will remain the same.

How can anybody be upset???? Especially those who are buying the tickets.

Minnesota Twins Rank No. 6 In Priciest Ticket « CBS Minnesota

[howieramone1406390264]

Reported by Edgar Linares April 7 2011 WCCO Radio

The Twins are No. 6 in the nation for priciest ticket, according to a Team Marketing Report. The survey, conducted by a sportshttp://images.intellitxt.com/ast/adTypes/icon1.png marketing firm in Chicago, finds the average price for a non-premium seat at Target Field is $33.04.

Minnesota Twins spokesman Kevin Smith said there are a number of factors that went into the pricing.

“Absolutely, we have a new stadiumhttp://images.intellitxt.com/ast/adTypes/icon1.png, which we are in charge of maintaining now (and) a payroll of over $100 million,” said Smith. “We just thought that ticket pricing was the best we could do.”

 

So let me get this straight, the Twins say they need the high ticket prices to support a larger payroll.

But now, the payroll is heading back to pre Target Field levels. But of course, the ticket prices will remain the same.

How can anybody be upset???? Especially those who are buying the tickets.

 

I haven't seen any upset people at the games I went to.

[Highabove]

Reported by Edgar Linares April 7 2011 WCCO Radio

The cost to go to a Minnesota Twins game ranks among the priciest in the nation.

 

The Twins are No. 6 in the nation for priciest ticket, according to a Team Marketing Report. The survey, conducted by a sportshttp://images.intellitxt.com/ast/adTypes/icon1.png marketing firm in Chicago, finds the average price for a non-premium seat at Target Field is $33.04.

Minnesota Twins spokesman Kevin Smith said there are a number of factors that went into the pricing.

“Absolutely, we have a new stadiumhttp://images.intellitxt.com/ast/adTypes/icon1.png, which we are in charge of maintaining now (and) a payroll of over $100 million,” said Smith. “We just thought that ticket pricing was the best we could do.”

------------------------------------------------------------------------

So let me get this straight, the Twins say they need the high ticket prices to support a larger payroll.

But now, the payroll is heading back to pre Target Field levels. But of course, the ticket prices will remain the same.

How can anybody be upset???? Especially those who are buying the tickets.

Minnesota Twins Rank No. 6 In Priciest Ticket « CBS Minnesota

 

I was attempting to point out why there is some anger among Fans regarding the continuing payroll cuts.