Minnesota Veterans Making Front Office Look Great

[chpettit19]

1 hour ago, Jocko87 said:

My general response would be that they see things, that we are not privy to, that lead them to believe even giving a shot is not a realistic idea.  They know very well Diego A (and B) is not an option, he's here because they can afford to lose him on waivers.

For the Carmargo example, his 750 OPS in a very hitter friendly AAA environment probably does translate to a 500ish MLB OPS, but without Vazquez defense.  That's a break glass in emergency only option. 

And frankly, try something else is for the White Sox and As.  They aren't searching for a nugget.  

Legit question, why would they risk Diego being lost on waivers instead of calling up Severino if they already know Diego isn't an option? If they know he isn't going to be good enough why not just call up the guy already on the 40-man? If that roster spot is doomed to fail why choose Diego?

[Road trip]

"That's some catch, that Catch-22".   Can't cut a failing vet for an unproven youngster.  All youngsters are unproven until they prove themselves for long enough to become vets.  But to prove themselves they need not only a chance at success, but lots of time in the majors.... which they can't have because we have stockpiled failing veterans who can't be cut.  Some catch indeed.

[Jocko87]

4 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

Legit question, why would they risk Diego being lost on waivers instead of calling up Severino if they already know Diego isn't an option? If they know he isn't going to be good enough why not just call up the guy already on the 40-man? If that roster spot is doomed to fail why choose Diego?

It is a very good question. It would look from the outside that a player already on the 40 would have been the easy choice.  My guess is that they thought they needed middle infield versatility as a higher priority in that case.  Severino is an emergency middle infielder at best. 

Diego has already been on waivers multiple times and maybe they think they can sneak him through.  He's a minor league depth piece as indicated by multiple organizations.  They also may not have to waiver him, depending on how the injured list works out.  Eventually it will happen though. 

[Jocko87]

1 minute ago, Road trip said:

"That's some catch, that Catch-22".   Can't cut a failing vet for an unproven youngster.  All youngsters are unproven until they prove themselves for long enough to become vets.  But to prove themselves they need not only a chance at success, but lots of time in the majors.... which they can't have because we have stockpiled failing veterans who can't be cut.  Some catch indeed.

That's not a true statement.  They know what they have-it’s literally the whole point of the minor leagues.  

They have to pass several minimum thresholds to get that chance. 

[Mike Sixel]

3 minutes ago, Jocko87 said:

That's not a true statement.  They know what they have-it’s literally the whole point of the minor leagues.  

They have to pass several minimum thresholds to get that chance. 

Front offices clearly don't, or we wouldn't see so many lopsided trades. Like if they did, would Tampa trade Ryan for two months of a hitter? No chance. We would not see so many promotions that don't work across the league. 

[Jocko87]

3 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

Front offices clearly don't, or we wouldn't see so many lopsided trades. Like if they did, would Tampa trade Ryan for two months of a hitter? No chance. We would not see so many promotions that don't work across the league. 

Nobody hits 1.000 but Diego A Castillo is a pretty known quantity.

[chpettit19]

18 minutes ago, Jocko87 said:

Nobody hits 1.000 but Diego A Castillo is a pretty known quantity.

This is our point. You keep saying "they know" when in reality they don't. If they know, they would bat 1.000. They have educated guesses (far more educated than our outsider guesses), but they don't know. They think.

Three teams traded or waived Brent Rooker. Did they know? Do you think Oakland knew he would do this? Nick Anderson (as used earlier) did have his initial stretch with Tampa where he K'd 17+ per 9. If the Twins knew he could do that for 1/3 of a season they would've called him up. If they knew he'd have a career 11.5 K/9 in nearly 160 innings they don't let him go. They wouldn't have traded Wade for the other Anderson reliever if they knew what they had in him. Kyle Farmer is a pretty known quantity, but they didn't know he'd be this horrid this year. 

Every team misses. Pretty frequently, actually. The Dodgers would've made some different choices had they known Gavin Lux couldn't play SS. Top prospects that everybody "knew" were good turn out to be bad all the time. They don't know.

These same debates take place in front offices. They can't know. Because if they did there wouldn't be a debate. The front office isn't in 100% alignment on how good any player is. Some think they're ready, others think they'll never be. They don't know. It's all just educated guesses with the guys at the very top picking which argument from their staff is the most convincing.

[Road trip]

1 minute ago, Jocko87 said:

That's not a true statement.  They know what they have-it’s literally the whole point of the minor leagues.  

They have to pass several minimum thresholds to get that chance. 

What they know beyond question is that Margot and Farmer have a negative WAR this year.  Farmer could conceivably get to zero.  Margot.... nearly impossible because his defense is so awful.

Generally, I think the Twins FO has done a good job, especially in regards to the pitching staff which is vastly improved compared to what the Twins had a half decade ago.  They do fairly well with the budget constraints they have.  I'm quite willing to accept that some veteran retread pitchers are necessary and even useful, esp in the bullpen. 

But I think it is also fair to point out that several veteran position players they have brought in (Gallo, Margot, Farmer, Vazquez) have not worked out well as expected.  Correa is of course the exception.  

And clearly, as Mike points out, sometimes they don't know what they have.  LaMonte Wade got fewer than 100 ABs in the majors before they gave up on him.  Turned out he could hit.

[USAFChief]

41 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

Front offices clearly don't, or we wouldn't see so many lopsided trades. Like if they did, would Tampa trade Ryan for two months of a hitter? No chance. We would not see so many promotions that don't work across the league. 

Tampa was in the middle of a 100 win season, trying to win the AL East and then the World Series. 

They made that trade hoping to fill their DH hole with 3 months of 2019 Nelson Cruz.

Ryan was a nice prospect, almost MLB ready, but wouldn't have cracked Tampa's rotation in 2021. 

That's exactly the type of trade smart teams trying to win make all the time. And they'd 100 percent do it again, without the benefit of 3 years hindsight. 

I hope the Twins do something similar for a top line starter this year.

It's about winning, not stockpiling fangraph prospect rankings. 

[Jocko87]

10 hours ago, Riverbrian said:

"That you know of".. belongs on the end of this. Doesn't it? 😉

We can't say for sure how Camargo would do? Right? 4 AB's and all.  

Diego A?

Severino?

Keirsay?

Helmen?

Holland?

Could any of the above 6 out perform a .556 OPS? I don't know but that's a real low bar. 

 

 

 

 

I don't disagree but the names listed above are just wish casting for something new.  The names these guy would have to jump would have everyone rightfully up in arms.  The fascination with the unseen is a core sports fandom trait.  The veterans are better at the job in the vast majority of the cases.  That's what matters.

There will always be individual examples of late bloomers but they are individual examples for a reason.  They don't disprove the rule.

By the way, Nick Anderson was DFA'D today.  So there's that.  No idea why he keeps coming up as a Big Papi like miss.

1 hour ago, chpettit19 said:

This is our point. You keep saying "they know" when in reality they don't. If they know, they would bat 1.000. They have educated guesses (far more educated than our outsider guesses), but they don't know. They think.

Three teams traded or waived Brent Rooker. Did they know? Do you think Oakland knew he would do this? Nick Anderson (as used earlier) did have his initial stretch with Tampa where he K'd 17+ per 9. If the Twins knew he could do that for 1/3 of a season they would've called him up. If they knew he'd have a career 11.5 K/9 in nearly 160 innings they don't let him go. They wouldn't have traded Wade for the other Anderson reliever if they knew what they had in him. Kyle Farmer is a pretty known quantity, but they didn't know he'd be this horrid this year. 

Every team misses. Pretty frequently, actually. The Dodgers would've made some different choices had they known Gavin Lux couldn't play SS. Top prospects that everybody "knew" were good turn out to be bad all the time. They don't know.

These same debates take place in front offices. They can't know. Because if they did there wouldn't be a debate. The front office isn't in 100% alignment on how good any player is. Some think they're ready, others think they'll never be. They don't know. It's all just educated guesses with the guys at the very top picking which argument from their staff is the most convincing.

 

[chpettit19]

5 minutes ago, Jocko87 said:

By the way, Nick Anderson was DFA'D today.  So there's that.  No idea why he keeps coming up as a Big Papi like miss.

 

Come on. Nobody called him Big Papi. But he was a clear and definite miss. Since 2019 he's thrown 158.1 innings with a 3.18 ERA and 11.5 K/9. The Twins could have used those numbers somewhere during that time, no? He doesn't have to be Big Papi for that to have been a bad decision. 

[Jocko87]

59 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

Come on. Nobody called him Big Papi. But he was a clear and definite miss. Since 2019 he's thrown 158.1 innings with a 3.18 ERA and 11.5 K/9. The Twins could have used those numbers somewhere during that time, no? He doesn't have to be Big Papi for that to have been a bad decision. 

Happy my exaggeration was noticed.  The problem is when names like his are passed around as misses and people don't notice the exaggeration.  See above 2 K per inning example.  Nick Anderson deserves a special place in the hall of Twins Daily misconceptions.  But I guess he's available now so a wrong can be righted.

He's been through six organizations as a decent relief pitcher, BFD.  If that's a miss, I can't help but feel sorry for this site in the future.  There will be a lot of talent flowing through this organization that contributes elsewhere.  A player that is good after they leave here does not require endless remember when's. 

Luis Gil, also not a miss.  

[Mike Sixel]

2 hours ago, USAFChief said:

Tampa was in the middle of a 100 win season, trying to win the AL East and then the World Series. 

They made that trade hoping to fill their DH hole with 3 months of 2019 Nelson Cruz.

Ryan was a nice prospect, almost MLB ready, but wouldn't have cracked Tampa's rotation in 2021. 

That's exactly the type of trade smart teams trying to win make all the time. And they'd 100 percent do it again, without the benefit of 3 years hindsight. 

I hope the Twins do something similar for a top line starter this year.

It's about winning, not stockpiling fangraph prospect rankings. 

My point was that they were wrong about Ryan. If anyone knew he'd be that good, he'd have fetched way more in trade. No one said don't trade prospects. But I think the Rooker example makes the point even better. Teams don't know with certainty how players will play at the MLB level. They just don't. 

[Riverbrian]

2 hours ago, Jocko87 said:

Happy my exaggeration was noticed.  The problem is when names like his are passed around as misses and people don't notice the exaggeration.  See above 2 K per inning example.  Nick Anderson deserves a special place in the hall of Twins Daily misconceptions.  But I guess he's available now so a wrong can be righted.

He's been through six organizations as a decent relief pitcher, BFD.  If that's a miss, I can't help but feel sorry for this site in the future.  There will be a lot of talent flowing through this organization that contributes elsewhere.  A player that is good after they leave here does not require endless remember when's. 

Luis Gil, also not a miss.  

OK... Nick Anderson is my poster boy for this sort of thing. He's a perfect example. Honestly... I really don't think you should downplay it because I'm pretty sure that Nick Anderson would have to be a fairly large regret for the front office. It was a miss... and a fairly significant one. 

You know me... I do exaggerate a lot but in regards to Nick Anderson it was more of a I don't have time to look up exact stats thing,  Please don't let that my work schedule on Thursday afternoon cloud your judgement. 

I'll just say... look up Nick Anderson's numbers in 2019 and 2020. He was one of the best relievers in baseball for two years. Only Josh Hader had a better K/9. He was the closer for the Rays going into the World Series. 

Even if you check out his 2019 and 2020 and don't agree he was one of the best relievers in baseball for those two years...  He was better than Tyler Clippard or Blake Parker or Ryne Harper. 

Even if you don't agree that he was better than Ryne Harper... Forget his 15 SO9 and just think about this. 

In 2019 a 27 year old rookie that was given away by the Twins in the off-season was traded by the Marlins to the Rays at the deadline for their 4th rated prospect... I'll repeat... 4th rated prospect... forget the numbers... that's not numbers that is actual trade value. That's a 27 year old rookie RELIEVER getting the 4th rated prospect in what was a fairly loaded Rays farm system. 

Why is Nick Anderson relevant to this conversation? 

Yes... he is my poster boy for this sort of thing and he's my poster boy because the Twins in 2018... instead of promoting Nick Anderson... chose to sign 38 year old Matt Belisle instead.

The same 38 year old Matt Belisle who was DFA'd by Cleveland that season. Cleared Waivers... reported to Cleveland AAA and was released maybe a month later. After being released. The Twins sign him and never give Nick Anderson the ball in the major leagues. 

Yeah... Nick Anderson. You cant screw up that badly and convince me that front offices have this assessment thing down. I respect the front office but I threw the rubber stamp away at the point. 

[Mike Sixel]

42 minutes ago, Riverbrian said:

OK... Nick Anderson is my poster boy for this sort of thing. He's a perfect example. Honestly... I really don't think you should downplay it because I'm pretty sure that Nick Anderson would have to be a fairly large regret for the front office. It was a miss... and a fairly significant one. 

You know me... I do exaggerate a lot but in regards to Nick Anderson it was more of a I don't have time to look up exact stats thing,  Please don't let that my work schedule on Thursday afternoon cloud your judgement. 

I'll just say... look up Nick Anderson's numbers in 2019 and 2020. He was one of the best relievers in baseball for two years. Only Josh Hader had a better K/9. He was the closer for the Rays going into the World Series. 

Even if you check out his 2019 and 2020 and don't agree he was one of the best relievers in baseball for those two years...  He was better than Tyler Clippard or Blake Parker or Ryne Harper. 

Even if you don't agree that he was better than Ryne Harper... Forget his 15 SO9 and just think about this. 

In 2019 a 27 year old rookie that was given away by the Twins in the off-season was traded by the Marlins to the Rays at the deadline for their 4th rated prospect... I'll repeat... 4th rated prospect... forget the numbers... that's not numbers that is actual trade value. That's a 27 year old rookie RELIEVER getting the 4th rated prospect in what was a fairly loaded Rays farm system. 

Why is Nick Anderson relevant to this conversation? 

Yes... he is my poster boy for this sort of thing and he's my poster boy because the Twins in 2018... instead of promoting Nick Anderson... chose to sign 38 year old Matt Belisle instead.

The same 38 year old Matt Belisle who was DFA'd by Cleveland that season. Cleared Waivers... reported to Cleveland AAA and was released maybe a month later. After being released. The Twins sign him and never give Nick Anderson the ball in the major leagues. 

Yeah... Nick Anderson. You cant screw up that badly and convince me that front offices have this assessment thing down. I respect the front office but I threw the rubber stamp away at the point. 

Truth. Matt Belisle over Anderson? Great post. I don't understand why they don't trust their minor league system more...

[Jocko87]

37 minutes ago, Riverbrian said:

OK... Nick Anderson is my poster boy for this sort of thing. He's a perfect example. Honestly... I really don't think you should downplay it because I'm pretty sure that Nick Anderson would have to be a fairly large regret for the front office. It was a miss... and a fairly significant one. 

You know me... I do exaggerate a lot but in regards to Nick Anderson it was more of a I don't have time to look up exact stats thing,  Please don't let that my work schedule on Thursday afternoon cloud your judgement. 

I'll just say... look up Nick Anderson's numbers in 2019 and 2020. He was one of the best relievers in baseball for two years. Only Josh Hader had a better K/9. He was the closer for the Rays going into the World Series. 

Even if you check out his 2019 and 2020 and don't agree he was one of the best relievers in baseball for those two years...  He was better than Tyler Clippard or Blake Parker or Ryne Harper. 

Even if you don't agree that he was better than Ryne Harper... Forget his 15 SO9 and just think about this. 

In 2019 a 27 year old rookie that was given away by the Twins in the off-season was traded by the Marlins to the Rays at the deadline for their 4th rated prospect... I'll repeat... 4th rated prospect... forget the numbers... that's not numbers that is actual trade value. That's a 27 year old rookie RELIEVER getting the 4th rated prospect in what was a fairly loaded Rays farm system. 

Why is Nick Anderson relevant to this conversation? 

Yes... he is my poster boy for this sort of thing and he's my poster boy because the Twins in 2018... instead of promoting Nick Anderson... chose to sign 38 year old Matt Belisle instead.

The same 38 year old Matt Belisle who was DFA'd by Cleveland that season. Cleared Waivers... reported to Cleveland AAA and was released maybe a month later. After being released. The Twins sign him and never give Nick Anderson the ball in the major leagues. 

Yeah... Nick Anderson. You cant screw up that badly and convince me that front offices have this assessment thing down. I respect the front office but I threw the rubber stamp away at the point. 

I spent quite a lot of time looking up Nick Anderson already.  I said he had a decent career.  He was nothing special, sorry.  I'm not going down that rabbit hole but I bet I could see why a veteran Matt Belisle was a decent choice as well.

Are you more upset that he was a good player who was good elsewhere or that the return was shite?  Or because he would have fit nicely on the magical 2019 team?  My impression is that it's a personal experience thing for you, not a baseball move.

It will happen again and again.  I'm not making the case anyone has this down but losing out on one good year from a reliever is hardly worth the ink we've already spilt.  The only factors behind any trade that we know about are who moved.  Nobody gets moved if value isn't perceived.  

As for player evaluation, they (all FO) are right far more often than not.  

Also, Matt Barnes had more K/9 that year as well.  I stopped looking.  

[Riverbrian]

2 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

Truth. Matt Belisle over Anderson? Great post. I don't understand why they don't trust their minor league system more...

Here's another truth. I believe that the Carlos Correa contract is an exception not a rule for the Twins.

I do not believe that the Twins will be seriously players in the free agent market in future years.

If they want to add great players to the roster. They have two legitimate options.

1. Develop and graduate great players in the minor league system.

2. Trade for a great player using players developed in the minor league system. 

Every struggling vet on an expiring contact makes each of those two things just a little bit harder. 

If they are able to graduate decent players... every player making the minimum frees up money to maybe make a dent in the free agent market.

 

[Jocko87]

12 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

Truth. Matt Belisle over Anderson? Great post. I don't understand why they don't trust their minor league system more...

OK I looked.  I'd say the more pressing reliever moves of those years would be related to Addison Reed, Fernando Rodney and Ryan Pressly.  Belisle linked to Anderson is just two unrelated names we looked up. 

[Mike Sixel]

9 minutes ago, Jocko87 said:

OK I looked.  I'd say the more pressing reliever moves of those years would be related to Addison Reed, Fernando Rodney and Ryan Pressly.  Belisle linked to Anderson is just two unrelated names we looked up. 

You're literally ignoring the point. You claimed the front office knows the players, that they know who is good from the minors, and we should not try guys in the minors, but go with veterans.

[Mike Sixel]

12 minutes ago, Riverbrian said:

Here's another truth. I believe that the Carlos Correa contract is an exception not a rule for the Twins.

I do not believe that the Twins will be seriously players in the free agent market in future years.

If they want to add great players to the roster. They have two legitimate options.

1. Develop and graduate great players in the minor league system.

2. Trade for a great player using players developed in the minor league system. 

Every struggling vet on an expiring contact makes each of those two things just a little bit harder. 

If they are able to graduate decent players... every player making the minimum frees up money to maybe make a dent in the free agent market.

 

Also truth. 

[Riverbrian]

3 minutes ago, Jocko87 said:

I spent quite a lot of time looking up Nick Anderson already.  I said he had a decent career.  He was nothing special, sorry.  I'm not going down that rabbit hole but I bet I could see why a veteran Matt Belisle was a decent choice as well.

Are you more upset that he was a good player who was good elsewhere or that the return was shite?  Or because he would have fit nicely on the magical 2019 team?  My impression is that it's a personal experience thing for you, not a baseball move.

It will happen again and again.  I'm not making the case anyone has this down but losing out on one good year from a reliever is hardly worth the ink we've already spilt.  The only factors behind any trade that we know about are who moved.  Nobody gets moved if value isn't perceived.  

As for player evaluation, they (all FO) are right far more often than not.  

Also, Matt Barnes had more K/9 that year as well.  I stopped looking.  

We have spent more time on Nick Anderson than we should. My fault... I brought him up but... yeah he's my poster boy. There really isn't a rabbit hole here. If you call two years (you say one good year) a decent career... you are not seeing it. He didn't have a decent career... he was a late bloomer... picked up a nasty curve ball to go with his decent fastball and was probably deemed too old to be a prospect when that transition took place. The Twins didn't give him a shot. They assessed him wrongly right before he exploded for two years. But your right... this isn't worth continuing the conversation if Matt Barnes causes you to stop looking. I would have gladly taken Matt Barnes on my team in 2019. I would have taken Matt Barnes in 2016, 2017, 2018, 2020 and 2021. 

Upset isn't the right word. I think player evaluation is an incredibly hard job. I'm not going to stand here and tell you that Keirsay is going to be a superstar if you just give him the chance. But I'll stand here and tell you that we have three vets... two of them won't be back next year and they are not performing well enough to keep you from trying someone else in 2024. 

Player Evaluation right more often than they are wrong. Maybe but that's a rabbit hole.

[Jocko87]

52 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

You're literally ignoring the point. You claimed the front office knows the players, that they know who is good from the minors, and we should not try guys in the minors, but go with veterans.

That nothing like anything I said.  Please excuse yourself from the discussion. 

[Jocko87]

43 minutes ago, Riverbrian said:

We have spent more time on Nick Anderson than we should. My fault... I brought him up but... yeah he's my poster boy. There really isn't a rabbit hole here. If you call two years (you say one good year) a decent career... you are not seeing it. He didn't have a decent career... he was a late bloomer... picked up a nasty curve ball to go with his decent fastball and was probably deemed too old to be a prospect when that transition took place. The Twins didn't give him a shot. They assessed him wrongly right before he exploded for two years. But your right... this isn't worth continuing the conversation if Matt Barnes causes you to stop looking. I would have gladly taken Matt Barnes on my team in 2019. I would have taken Matt Barnes in 2016, 2017, 2018, 2020 and 2021. 

Upset isn't the right word. I think player evaluation is an incredibly hard job. I'm not going to stand here and tell you that Keirsay is going to be a superstar if you just give him the chance. But I'll stand here and tell you that we have three vets... two of them won't be back next year and they are not performing well enough to keep you from trying someone else in 2024. 

Player Evaluation right more often than they are wrong. Maybe but that's a rabbit hole.

Yes, happy to conclude discussions on Mr Anderson.

 

I think my remaining question is related to the names you mentioned, many not even on the 40 man.  If your contention is that the Margots, Farmers and Santana's are blocking them I would agree.  But they are also blocked by a ton of other, closer, need to prove it players as well.  

Who is actually blocking the Severino/Kiersey types?  I'd say it's much more the Martin, Lee, Julien, Wallner, Larnach, Kiriloff, Miranda types than a Santana.  

And as I have mentioned as many places as I can.  The May roster is not the September roster is not the October roster.  Moves are different now than what they would make in win or go home times.  Christian Vazquez at third base one time basically ensures that Kyle Farmer will be around a long time, even if it is on the IL.

[Riverbrian]

8 hours ago, Jocko87 said:

Yes, happy to conclude discussions on Mr Anderson.

 

I think my remaining question is related to the names you mentioned, many not even on the 40 man.  If your contention is that the Margots, Farmers and Santana's are blocking them I would agree.  But they are also blocked by a ton of other, closer, need to prove it players as well.  

Who is actually blocking the Severino/Kiersey types?  I'd say it's much more the Martin, Lee, Julien, Wallner, Larnach, Kiriloff, Miranda types than a Santana.  

And as I have mentioned as many places as I can.  The May roster is not the September roster is not the October roster.  Moves are different now than what they would make in win or go home times.  Christian Vazquez at third base one time basically ensures that Kyle Farmer will be around a long time, even if it is on the IL.

I have a bad habit of listing specific names and those specific names almost always become a distraction. I'll be listing names but I hope you understand that I'm really talking concept. 

I'm not even sure that "blocking" is the right word but let's use it because I understand what you are asking. 

To answer your question... Right Now... Camargo is blocking Julien. Isn't he? Camargo is blocking Julien and Severino. Like I said... I don't know if blocking is the right word.

Farmer goes on the IL... Camargo is called up to replace him on the 26 man roster. Farmer isn't blocking anyone at the moment... He has been cleared off the 26 man for the time being. 

Camargo was the chosen player. He was called up AND THEN THEY DON"T PLAY HIM!!!

Vazquez plays DH and 3B in San Fran. Camargo watches from the bench. 

I want to be clear... I'm not making any claims that Camargo is going to light the world on fire if you only let him play. I'm saying that Camargo has been up in the majors for what.... 13 games? this year.  4 AB's. 

Rocco is blocking Camargo who is blocking Julien and Severino and Keirsay and every single player in the system.

Meanwhile Margot and Vazquez can settle into their comfy chairs because Wallner type production replacing Farmer isn't showing up to go 8 for 22 with a .727 Slug to challenge or push Margot or Vazquez.

I have a problem with nobody being allowed to push or challenge guys with slugging percentage under .300 

Sometimes injuries can make you better. In the case of Farmer... It sure could have.

It's this type of pre-determination that I don't trust from anyone... I don't trust you... I don't trust myself and I seriously don't trust the front office to make these pre-determinations and that isn't a slam on the front office, you or I. The margins are incredibly thin with wild ups and downs. 

It is a slam on anyone who has made a pre-determination of what player X is. 

Here ya go... the big finish with the bold statement at the end.

It is the job of the front office to use the information that you and I don't have access to. Use it to determine who should replace Farmer when he goes on the IL 

If that information is telling them to call up someone and then not play the player selected because apparently the chosen one isn't capable of competing with a .515 OPS that just can't yield playing time. 

If that is what the information is telling them. The farm system isn't producing below average fruit.

The team is satisfied and settled. No need for any upgrades anywhere. 

 

[Riverbrian]

10 hours ago, Jocko87 said:

OK I looked.  I'd say the more pressing reliever moves of those years would be related to Addison Reed, Fernando Rodney and Ryan Pressly.  Belisle linked to Anderson is just two unrelated names we looked up. 

I'm sorry I can't help it. We should stay off of Anderson because I just brought him up as a poster boy. 

Belisle and Anderson are not names unrelated. 

Back in 2018... Matt Belisle 38 years old at the time was picked up on June 12th after being released from Cleveland which occurred after he was DFA'd from the 40 man and went unclaimed earlier in the year. 

The signing was questionable when you consider that he didn't require a 40 man spot with Cleveland and was just released anyway. But... you could still kind of justify it because the Twins were 29-34 and 5 games back in the Central at the time. If they believed in Belisle... they believed in Belisle. 

Belisle stayed on the roster for the rest of the year. 9.13 ERA 2.11 WHIP were his final numbers with the Twins in 2018. 

At the trade deadline... the Twins were 49-57... Now 9 games out. We were sellers... We traded Brian Dozier to the Dodgers, Escobar to the D-Backs, Pressly to the Astros and Lynn to the Yankees. Logan Morrison was done for the year (Thank God Finally) to undergo surgery. Buxton was hitting .156 and sent down to AAA in that old service time scandal. Sano was sent all the way down to Fort Myers.

Belisle remained on his way to a 9.13 ERA.  

The top AAA pitcher at the time was 27 year old Nick Anderson. Belisle remained with the club, Nick Anderson remained in St. Paul in a season that the Twins sold at the deadline. The upcoming off-season was decision time on Nick. The Twins could have used real 2018 info on him by giving him a shot. He was due for Rule 5 protection in the off-season. He was going to require a 40 man spot. It would have been a great to discover if Nick Anderson's success in St. Paul could translate to the majors to provide information to help that upcoming 40 man spot decision. 

The club kept Belisle in a lost season didn't give Anderson to opportunity to show what he can do. Anderson as a rule 5 and very little to prove in AAA was probably going to get claimed. The Twins decided that there was something about Nick Anderson that they couldn't give him a 40 man roster spot and they traded him to the Marlins in the off-season for Brian Schales. 

Brian Schales was an unranked prospect whose primary skill was not needing a 40 man roster spot. 

Matt Belisle was out of baseball in 2019. Brian Schales was out of baseball in 2020. Nick Anderson after 4 months in the majors. He was traded to Tampa for their 4th ranked prospect and he was even better in the shortened covid season of 2020. . 

Belisle and Anderson will always be related in my mind. All they had to do... is move off of a struggling... real real bad struggling 38 year old on an expiring contract and try someone else. Nick Anderson was the obvious choice for that someone else.   

[Squirrel]

And … threadjack complete

[Riverbrian]

47 minutes ago, Squirrel said:

And … threadjack complete

Sorry... Loose ends.  

However, Belisle and Anderson do apply as a past example of the discussion at hand. 

The price of hanging on to a struggling vet instead of another available option.  

[Squirrel]

1 hour ago, Riverbrian said:

Sorry... Loose ends.  

However, Belisle and Anderson do apply as a past example of the discussion at hand. 

The price of hanging on to a struggling vet instead of another available option.  

But it’s no longer an example but the topic. Thats the point. Someone brings in examples and then those examples become their own discussion along with the events of the past no longer correlating it to the current. When hiking some just want to go everywhere. I prefer to stick to a destination and the trail I choose to get there and back. It’s difficult for some to stick to one path. Some of you just want to see the view from every single trail on the mountain. I don’t blame you for wanting to do that, but I’m not coming back for you when you get lost on the mountain. But I might send up a flare for you to follow 🙂

[Riverbrian]

6 minutes ago, Squirrel said:

But it’s no longer an example but the topic. Thats the point. Someone brings in examples and then those examples become their own discussion along with the events of the past no longer correlating it to the current. When hiking some just want to go everywhere. I prefer to stick to a destination and the trail I choose to get there and back. It’s difficult for some to stick to one path. Some of you just want to see the view from every single trail on the mountain. I don’t blame you for wanting to do that, but I’m not coming back for you when you get lost on the mountain. But I might send up a flare for you to follow 🙂

[RpR]

5 hours ago, Riverbrian said:

I have a bad habit of listing specific names and those specific names almost always become a distraction. I'll be listing names but I hope you understand that I'm really talking concept. 

I'm not even sure that "blocking" is the right word but let's use it because I understand what you are asking. 

To answer your question... Right Now... Camargo is blocking Julien. Isn't he? Camargo is blocking Julien and Severino. Like I said... I don't know if blocking is the right word.

Farmer goes on the IL... Camargo is called up to replace him on the 26 man roster. Farmer isn't blocking anyone at the moment... He has been cleared off the 26 man for the time being. 

Camargo was the chosen player. He was called up AND THEN THEY DON"T PLAY HIM!!!

Vazquez plays DH and 3B in San Fran. Camargo watches from the bench. 

I want to be clear... I'm not making any claims that Camargo is going to light the world on fire if you only let him play. I'm saying that Camargo has been up in the majors for what.... 13 games? this year.  4 AB's. 

Rocco is blocking Camargo who is blocking Julien and Severino and Keirsay and every single player in the system.

Meanwhile Margot and Vazquez can settle into their comfy chairs because Wallner type production replacing Farmer isn't showing up to go 8 for 22 with a .727 Slug to challenge or push Margot or Vazquez.

I have a problem with nobody being allowed to push or challenge guys with slugging percentage under .300 

Sometimes injuries can make you better. In the case of Farmer... It sure could have.

It's this type of pre-determination that I don't trust from anyone... I don't trust you... I don't trust myself and I seriously don't trust the front office to make these pre-determinations and that isn't a slam on the front office, you or I. The margins are incredibly thin with wild ups and downs. 

It is a slam on anyone who has made a pre-determination of what player X is. 

Here ya go... the big finish with the bold statement at the end.

It is the job of the front office to use the information that you and I don't have access to. Use it to determine who should replace Farmer when he goes on the IL 

If that information is telling them to call up someone and then not play the player selected because apparently the chosen one isn't capable of competing with a .515 OPS that just can't yield playing time. 

If that is what the information is telling them. The farm system isn't producing below average fruit.

The team is satisfied and settled. No need for any upgrades anywhere. 

 

Camargo is up because Farmer is on the IL; Farmer is the emergency catcher, if he is not there , there is no one else (I know of) to catch who has genuine pro experience.

Blocking simply means not good enough, or not fitting a spot on the majors.