The Twins Relief Pipeline Has Become Too Predictable

[JD-TWINS]

58 minutes ago, 1985Fan said:

I would add the question of who is telling pitchers what pitch to throw and when? I’m concerned about Durans comment after giving up Sundays walkoff home run that he was just an employee following orders (I’m paraphrasing). Who called for a curve when he had just given up a game losing home run on Friday night on a curve? From his comment, it sounds like he didn’t agree with the call. You want your best relief arm confident in the pitch call with the game on the line. I thought pitchers had final say on pitches. It sounds as if calls are being made outside of the catcher or pitcher. That is extremely concerning to me. Even I know that Duran should be throwing his best pitch in do or die situations and it seemed obvious from the previous home run that Cleveland was sitting on his curve. If he’s still hurt and can’t throw his fastball at his normal velocity, then why is not on the DL? If Vasquez called for the curve, that is another question as to why he’s in the lineup. If he can’t hit and is making dumb calls, then why is Rocco playing him? 

Shake the catcher off OR make a good pitch. Period. Duran has full responsibility here! …….all the other stuff is noise. He’s got the same coaching staff and catcher he had all of last year and through his first 6 (scoreless) outings of this year. Look in the mirror Jhoan.

[Doctor Gast]

2 hours ago, Seth Stohs said:

Adding Varland and Alcala to the bullpen would make a ton of sense, though I definitely get sticking with Varland as a starter. 

As for the SP mentioned: Mejia was nothing like the others. The Twins were in a different spot during those years and needed guys who could eat innings while other guys were developed. Now, instead of going to veterans with no upside but innings eaters, they are trusting the likes of Ryan, Ober, Varland, SWR, Festa, and eventually Raya (and some others like Matthews, Morris, Ohl, etc.). 

The Jackson signing was baffling to me right from the start (other than it being that Jharel Cotton role). Dyson was really good until that trade and he let people know he was hurt... and we found out he's a horrible person. Robles and Colome were solid pitchers. Barraclough was just like 99% of all minor-league free agent reliever signings. Every year, every team signs a few of them and hopes they don't have to use them too much and if they do, hopefully one turns out really good (like Brock Stewart, Caleb Thielbar when he came back to the org, etc.).  I don't know who Barnes is. Totally blanking on relievers with that name. 

The fact that teams are going towards SPs going fewer innings, makes perfect sense to me to evolve more to long relief. Long relief helps take the pressure off of short relief & SPs. Putting Varland in a long relief/ spot starting doesn't eliminate him as a future SP. Paddack was in the pen last year, now he's starting.

[rv78]

2 hours ago, mikelink45 said:

Too true and too sad.  Varland is not looking like the next SP the way he is pitching so the BP is a better option and Festa will be next man up.  Alcala and Varland at least provide younger arms with some future.  All these scrapheap signings are getting boring and old!

Our FO gurus have given us the following SP: Archer, Bundy, Lynn, Hill, Bailey, Happ, Shoemaker, and Adalberto Mejia. 

In the BP we have Dyson, Robles, Colome, Barraclough, Barnes and Jackson and all the others in the BP today and so many that the names are a blur.

Yet we hired this FO for their pitching acumen.  

You forgot Mahle and DeSclafani.

[Patzky]

3 hours ago, DJL44 said:

Why the focus on Wittgren and not Blewett?

Wittgren is a straw to grasp, Blewett is a team philosophy. 😂

[rv78]

1 hour ago, 1985Fan said:

I would add the question of who is telling pitchers what pitch to throw and when? I’m concerned about Durans comment after giving up Sundays walkoff home run that he was just an employee following orders (I’m paraphrasing). Who called for a curve when he had just given up a game losing home run on Friday night on a curve? From his comment, it sounds like he didn’t agree with the call. You want your best relief arm confident in the pitch call with the game on the line. I thought pitchers had final say on pitches. It sounds as if calls are being made outside of the catcher or pitcher. That is extremely concerning to me. Even I know that Duran should be throwing his best pitch in do or die situations and it seemed obvious from the previous home run that Cleveland was sitting on his curve. If he’s still hurt and can’t throw his fastball at his normal velocity, then why is not on the DL? If Vasquez called for the curve, that is another question as to why he’s in the lineup. If he can’t hit and is making dumb calls, then why is Rocco playing him? 

Because Rocco doesn't know any better and makes the same type of calls.

[karcherd]

45 minutes ago, JD-TWINS said:

Shake the catcher off OR make a good pitch. Period. Duran has full responsibility here! …….all the other stuff is noise. He’s got the same coaching staff and catcher he had all of last year and through his first 6 (scoreless) outings of this year. Look in the mirror Jhoan.

There were the same hints being dropped last year as well.  Most of the home runs he gave up were on off speed pitches. And there were whispers that the pitches weren't what he would have called for.  And we have heard the same from a couple of others.  Where there is smoke there may be fire.

[Schmoeman5]

2 hours ago, Patzky said:

Not sure about the accuracy but MLB said Boushley was pushing four seamers by at 89 mph last night.. 

Bring him up. NOW!

[Patzky]

2 minutes ago, Schmoeman5 said:

Bring him up. NOW!

Lol up where!

[Reptevia]

1 hour ago, JD-TWINS said:

Shake the catcher off OR make a good pitch. Period. Duran has full responsibility here! …….all the other stuff is noise. He’s got the same coaching staff and catcher he had all of last year and through his first 6 (scoreless) outings of this year. Look in the mirror Jhoan.

Dude’s a professional pitcher. I’m pretty sure he knows how the process works!  His comment suggests that he does not have the option to “shake off” the catcher. Also, Vasquez is here for his defense. That suggests maybe HE didn’t have an option but to call the curve?

[Schmoeman5]

4 minutes ago, Patzky said:

Lol up where!

My bad. I forgot they recalled him. But the Twins need that 89 mph heater for BP

[1985Fan]

20 minutes ago, karcherd said:

There were the same hints being dropped last year as well.  Most of the home runs he gave up were on off speed pitches. And there were whispers that the pitches weren't what he would have called for.  And we have heard the same from a couple of others.  Where there is smoke there may be fire.

It sounded like there is a scripted “pitching game plan” that is being dictated. Not sure if it’s Baldelli or pitching coach or someone else. If it is someone other than Vasquez or Duran, then shame on them. If you get beat on your 3rd best pitch to lose the game twice in a row, that person needs to quit calling pitches. I can’t understand why he wouldn’t throw his fastball or splitter after giving up the home run on Friday on a curve. Terrible call that has cost the Twins two games. I also wonder why the Twins beat writers haven’t asked about it. 

[1985Fan]

9 minutes ago, 1985Fan said:

It sounded like there is a scripted “pitching game plan” that is being dictated. Not sure if it’s Baldelli or pitching coach or someone else. If it is someone other than Vasquez or Duran, then shame on them. If you get beat on your 3rd best pitch to lose the game twice in a row, that person needs to quit calling pitches. I can’t understand why he wouldn’t throw his fastball or splitter after giving up the home run on Friday on a curve. Terrible call that has cost the Twins two games. I also wonder why the Twins beat writers haven’t asked about it. 

In the Pioneer Press, Duran said “he would have preferred to throw a fastball”. He‘s also quoted : “it’s not my decision… I’m an employee here, so whatever I need to throw, I need to throw”. Someone dictated the curve. 
Rocco has also made comments about the detailed and thorough game plans not being executed when they lose. It sounds to me like analytics gone too far. 

[mikelink45]

3 hours ago, Seth Stohs said:

Adding Varland and Alcala to the bullpen would make a ton of sense, though I definitely get sticking with Varland as a starter. 

As for the SP mentioned: Mejia was nothing like the others. The Twins were in a different spot during those years and needed guys who could eat innings while other guys were developed. Now, instead of going to veterans with no upside but innings eaters, they are trusting the likes of Ryan, Ober, Varland, SWR, Festa, and eventually Raya (and some others like Matthews, Morris, Ohl, etc.). 

The Jackson signing was baffling to me right from the start (other than it being that Jharel Cotton role). Dyson was really good until that trade and he let people know he was hurt... and we found out he's a horrible person. Robles and Colome were solid pitchers. Barraclough was just like 99% of all minor-league free agent reliever signings. Every year, every team signs a few of them and hopes they don't have to use them too much and if they do, hopefully one turns out really good (like Brock Stewart, Caleb Thielbar when he came back to the org, etc.).  I don't know who Barnes is. Totally blanking on relievers with that name. 

As I looked at the various RP I blanked on many of them and just chose a sampling.  Robles and Colome were solid until they came to us.  Then what?  Did we miss something in evaluation or did we misuse them?

[mikelink45]

1 hour ago, rv78 said:

You forgot Mahle and DeSclafani.

I had too many tears to continue!

[AlGoreRythm]

11 hours ago, 1985Fan said:

I would add the question of who is telling pitchers what pitch to throw and when? I’m concerned about Durans comment after giving up Sundays walkoff home run that he was just an employee following orders (I’m paraphrasing). Who called for a curve when he had just given up a game losing home run on Friday night on a curve? From his comment, it sounds like he didn’t agree with the call. You want your best relief arm confident in the pitch call with the game on the line. I thought pitchers had final say on pitches. It sounds as if calls are being made outside of the catcher or pitcher. That is extremely concerning to me. Even I know that Duran should be throwing his best pitch in do or die situations and it seemed obvious from the previous home run that Cleveland was sitting on his curve. If he’s still hurt and can’t throw his fastball at his normal velocity, then why is not on the DL? If Vasquez called for the curve, that is another question as to why he’s in the lineup. If he can’t hit and is making dumb calls, then why is Rocco playing him? 

I believe pitching coach Pete Maki suggested throwing the curve in that spot, but keep in mind the curve has been his best pitch for a couple of years with opponents hitting under .150 on it. Sometimes a good pitch gets hit. Sometimes a pitch gets left up and gets crushed. It's one pitch and that's gonna happen sometimes.

I think a lot of people are making a lot of assumptions about "not having the option to shake off a pitch" or "analytics gone too far." On a team, especially at the professional level there is going to be quite a bit of game planning and information we as fans aren't privy to.

To me Duran's comment suggests he's buying into the game plan and working with everyone else in the organization to work together toward their shared goal, even if he may have differing views on specific situations.

Personally i don't think that's the most concerning issue with Duran. I'm more concerned his fastball is 2-3 mph slower than last year. That's more than one or two pitches in a couple games...

[tony&rodney]

Something seems amiss with comments/apparent statements that suggest a pitcher is an employee and doesn't have a choice in what pitch to throw. Is this a thing? Could this explain what went wrong with Jorge Alcala? Did Alcala go against the called pitches by shaking off the catcher/organization and is now subsequently wearing a St. Paul uniform? I may be a little confused by this thread. Certainly Duran should not be throwing a curve when he feels it best to use his heater. Doubt and lack of conviction is never a good idea for pitchers. Interesting thought for a reporter to delve into in greater depth. It would be pretty wild to have a video gamer making the decisions for what pitch Duran is throwing. This seems a little out there.

[rv78]

12 hours ago, AlGoreRythm said:

I believe pitching coach Pete Maki suggested throwing the curve in that spot, but keep in mind the curve has been his best pitch for a couple of years with opponents hitting under .150 on it. Sometimes a good pitch gets hit. Sometimes a pitch gets left up and gets crushed. It's one pitch and that's gonna happen sometimes.

I think a lot of people are making a lot of assumptions about "not having the option to shake off a pitch" or "analytics gone too far." On a team, especially at the professional level there is going to be quite a bit of game planning and information we as fans aren't privy to.

To me Duran's comment suggests he's buying into the game plan and working with everyone else in the organization to work together toward their shared goal, even if he may have differing views on specific situations.

Personally i don't think that's the most concerning issue with Duran. I'm more concerned his fastball is 2-3 mph slower than last year. That's more than one or two pitches in a couple games...

Okay..... If the players have limited or even no control on what/how they play, then, will the Manager and Coaches ever be held accountable? It also makes one wonder .... will Rocco continually tell the press that the players approach needs to change when it fact they are likely doing what they are told. Sounds like, if Duran had the choice, he would have thrown something different. Rocco blames the players, when quite possibly, all they are doing is what he and his Coaches want. And I thought Gardy was good at throwing his players under the bus. Rocco has him beat by a country mile.

[AlGoreRythm]

11 hours ago, rv78 said:

Okay..... If the players have limited or even no control on what/how they play, then, will the Manager and Coaches ever be held accountable? It also makes one wonder .... will Rocco continually tell the press that the players approach needs to change when it fact they are likely doing what they are told. Sounds like, if Duran had the choice, he would have thrown something different. Rocco blames the players, when quite possibly, all they are doing is what he and his Coaches want. And I thought Gardy was good at throwing his players under the bus. Rocco has him beat by a country mile.

I think you're blowing it out of proportion with assumptions based on limited information like an after game quote. I think it's just silly to think the players have "no control on what/how they play". To me it sounds like the analysis of someone who hasn't played team sports

Players and coaches build trust, and players are usually going to take the suggestion of their coaches. They game plan together and work together to achieve the goal of winning. Sometimes the coaches are wrong, sometimes the players are.

I think what I'm seeing with so many of these comments is simply over-reaction to a few quotes from players and coaches mixed with another bad stretch of baseball and of course, the always present hate for the manager. 

IMO it's all motivated reasoning by people looking for reasons to complain about the manager again. 

Yes Duran gave up a couple HRs off his curve, but it's still statistically his best pitch. That type of things happens in baseball all the time, and 2 HRs in 2 games is far too small a sample size to come to the conclusions so many people are.