How Much Have Twins' Budget-Conscious Offseason Decisions Hurt?

[NYCTK]

Why even pretend the Twins had a chance at Burnes? Were we seriously going to trade Brooks Lee for a season of Corbin Burnes, because that's the only prospect that stacks up to Joey Ortiz in terms of talent and major league readiness. 

I still think they screwed up by not signing someone like Lorenzen, but not because he'd be better than our internal options, but because he's better than internal option C, or D. And that lack of depth might turn out to be pretty crucial. 

[Major League Ready]

1 hour ago, JD-TWINS said:

I was the biggest proponent for 3 months to sign Montgomery. The Rangers are an odd example as they have Scherzer & deGrom on their payroll. The post is about the cheap ownership of the Twins……..not the hyper aggressive front office of the Twins (that doesn’t exist)

Cole Ragans is now K.C.’s future pitching anchor.

How did the Mahle trade work out for the Twins??

I was in the minority that hated the Mahle trade so I am with you there.   Texas also gave up Emmanuel Clase for Cory Kluber who did nothing for them.  Chapman was not exactly a difference maker for them either.  MLB has many examples of such trades.  The cost of trading for established pitching can be extremely high despite the position of many fans that they are "just prospects".

They could have spent big and got very little with Snell or Montgomery who were the two prime candidates.  Who knows they could both turn it around and be great.  We won't know the answer to the question posed in this thread until the end of the year.  Now, if we say what if they had a crystal ball and signed Lugo or Flaherty.  I was a proponent of using whatever funds we had for a Lugo or Flaherty type and go with the depth we already had to replace Polanco.  The $5M for Santana is probably going to be a good fallback position of Kirilloff does not drastically improve.  Others here suggested similar paths but that's not what was being called for here during the off-season.  That call was for proven "playoff-caliber" starters.  The two most popular choices do not look so good at this point in time.   

[Mike Sixel]

2 hours ago, JD-TWINS said:

They don’t grow on trees - these “top starting pitchers” available at the deadline. With the aforementioned frugal ownership position, it’s going to be pretty difficult to be in the mix. We’ll use up a good player/prospect or three and it will be for a 2 month rental as there’s no intention of paying anyone into the future.

Don’t see this approach as realistic, nor smart. 

My comment was about the in house hitting options.... Not just the last sentence. 

[Mike Sixel]

2 hours ago, JD-TWINS said:

I was the biggest proponent for 3 months to sign Montgomery. The Rangers are an odd example as they have Scherzer & deGrom on their payroll. The post is about the cheap ownership of the Twins……..not the hyper aggressive front office of the Twins (that doesn’t exist)

Cole Ragans is now K.C.’s future pitching anchor.

How did the Mahle trade work out for the Twins??

How did the Ryan trade work? This constant relitigating of everything, sigh. 

[NYCTK]

2 hours ago, Major League Ready said:

You are right.  They are hard to come by, but it worked out pretty well for the Rangers last year. 

Fans always underestimate how much it takes to trade for a piece like Montgomery. Are you ok with the Twins trading Marco Raya, Zebby Matthews and Kody Funderburk for 3 months of a Starting Pitcher that would slot in as the Twins #3? That's still probably underestimating what the Rangers traded for Jordan. 

 

[Major League Ready]

2 hours ago, NYCTK said:

Fans always underestimate how much it takes to trade for a piece like Montgomery. Are you ok with the Twins trading Marco Raya, Zebby Matthews and Kody Funderburk for 3 months of a Starting Pitcher that would slot in as the Twins #3? That's still probably underestimating what the Rangers traded for Jordan. 

 

You make a good point.  We got Ryan for a couple months of Cruz.  These trades can be overwhelmingly in favor of the team trading for prospects.

[JD-TWINS]

21 hours ago, Linus said:

The idea that less money to spend is acceptable to more money to spend is nonsensical. You always want more resources. The payroll cuts dictated that Polo was going to be traded no matter what. Falvine ended up settling on a deal that did us no good this year and likely will never do us any good. They clearly needed a starter and had to take DeSclafani. They needed a right handed hitting outfielder that could actually play and they got Margot. Gurriel was a great fit but cost money. Falvine had to pull a rabbit out of the hat due to the payroll but instead pulled a skunk. Ownership is getting exactly what they deserve in fan apathy. Can’t wait for Dave St Peter to open his mouth on this subject. 

Polo trade needed to be made regardless - Julien was going to play 2B & Lee is coming at some point…….either DH, 3B or 2B.

Polanco, as of Thursday, was leading the A.L. in strikeouts and hitting .192…….,and needed some time off due to tight hamstring.

They got a young kid that’s a top 100 prospect on neutral observer list. Topa has the capability to help win games…….maybe not until ‘25 - that would be a drag but it’s possible. I get it, gotta get in the field to help team. Same issue with Jorge.

Lourdes Gurriel Jr. is hitting .231 with an OPS+ of 88……..2 steals & 5 homers. He’s making $14M/yr for next 3 years……………Margot costs $5.5M and a cheap buyout for ‘25……..he’s terrible…….can’t argue that, but no evidence that at 29 he was going to play like he’s 39. He’s hitting 83 points less than last year and almost 100 points less than ‘22.

Lourdes is no savior though & at $14M, not a great value!!

[Linus]

4 minutes ago, JD-TWINS said:

Polo trade needed to be made regardless - Julien was going to play 2B & Lee is coming at some point…….either DH, 3B or 2B.

Polanco, as of Thursday, was leading the A.L. in strikeouts and hitting .192…….,and needed some time off due to tight hamstring.

They got a young kid that’s a top 100 prospect on neutral observer list. Topa has the capability to help win games…….maybe not until ‘25 - that would be a drag but it’s possible. I get it, gotta get in the field to help team. Same issue with Jorge.

Lourdes Gurriel Jr. is hitting .231 with an OPS+ of 88……..2 steals & 5 homers. He’s making $14M/yr for next 3 years……………Margot costs $5.5M and a cheap buyout for ‘25……..he’s terrible…….can’t argue that, but no evidence that at 29 he was going to play like he’s 39. He’s hitting 83 points less than last year and almost 100 points less than ‘22.

Lourdes is no savior though & at $14M, not a great value!!

So far. Gurriel has a track record. The point about the Polo trade is he was a valuable asset at the time of the trade. Literally one of the best middle infielders available in trade or free agency. They turned that asset into nothing. I have no problem trading either Polo or Julien to improve the team. They ended up having to take a bad deal because they had to dump his salary.  They added no starting pitching. It’s ok to just admit that this past off season has been a cluster. 

[JD-TWINS]

21 hours ago, mnfireman said:

There are multiple areas that have hurt this years team:

The drop-off from projected starters (Buxton & Lewis, also Kepler) to replacements (Margot, Farmer & Martin) is greater than last season.

Young players expected to be counted on have not performed - Kirilloff, Wallner (AAA), Sands & Varland (AAA).

Proven veterans have seemingly fallen further than anyone would have ever thought - Vazquez, Margot & Farmer.

But I think Baldelli's refusal to get out of his own way (game management) has hampered this team more than anything - BP mismanagement, sticking with slumping players too long, PH in the 4th or 5th innings trying to get an advantage and the big two - the righty-vs-lefty line-ups and the get-away day line-ups. The players need to perform, but the manager needs to recognize which players are performing, which aren't and what combination gives the team the best chance to win each day. 

 

They just won 17 out of 20 games prior to Yankee series……they started terribly and are 2.5 games out of 1st place in Division…….Sands has had a couple bad innings after being excellent for weeks ……..Kepler, since coming back April 21, has 7 hits for RBI with two outs and he’s hit near .400.

Not sure what your expectations are?

[JD-TWINS]

1 hour ago, Linus said:

So far. Gurriel has a track record. The point about the Polo trade is he was a valuable asset at the time of the trade. Literally one of the best middle infielders available in trade or free agency. They turned that asset into nothing. I have no problem trading either Polo or Julien to improve the team. They ended up having to take a bad deal because they had to dump his salary.  They added no starting pitching. It’s ok to just admit that this past off season has been a cluster. 

“So far”, goes for Margot as well as anyone else. I get Gurriel should improve from where he is …….,,NOBODY has more room for improvement than Margot!

Polanco is hurt - leading the League in K’s - hitting .192. How is trading those totals (& $10M) a bad deal?

[JD-TWINS]

8 hours ago, Mike Sixel said:

How did the Ryan trade work? This constant relitigating of everything, sigh. 

Worked well ……we were trading from position of strength to dump salary when not competitive, not the reverse. I didn’t say there are no opportunities at the deadline but we aren’t trading a veteran for a prospect to improve long term………. it’s apples & oranges, hence the need to make you & others sigh.

The point is, with expanded wild card spots, there will be (has been) a whole bunch of competition for any reasonable starters. IMO, not improving the Team in the offseason and assuming a pitcher, that’s going to improve your rotation, is going to be available is a stretch. It is extremely difficult pick up a solid guy at the deadline. It’s not just a formality of making a couple phone calls.

Lastly, to get a guy that looks good on paper, it costs guys like Steer and Encarnacion-Strand.

[JD-TWINS]

8 hours ago, Mike Sixel said:

My comment was about the in house hitting options.... Not just the last sentence. 

You stated you “generally agreed”…….my comment was directed at Doc Gast and the assumption that adding a good rotation piece is somewhat of a given…….if an organization chooses to go that route. I disagree with that - nothing personal.

[Linus]

47 minutes ago, JD-TWINS said:

“So far”, goes for Margot as well as anyone else. I get Gurriel should improve from where he is …….,,NOBODY has more room for improvement than Margot!

Polanco is hurt - leading the League in K’s - hitting .192. How is trading those totals (& $10M) a bad deal?

Because at the time he was traded he was a valuable asset. What he has done since doesn’t matter. What matters is they took a valuable asset and turned it into next to nothing. I’m not saying trading him per se was bad - good teams take assets and turn them into more assets. 

[mnfireman]

1 hour ago, JD-TWINS said:

They just won 17 out of 20 games prior to Yankee series……they started terribly and are 2.5 games out of 1st place in Division…….Sands has had a couple bad innings after being excellent for weeks ……..Kepler, since coming back April 21, has 7 hits for RBI with two outs and he’s hit near .400.

Not sure what your expectations are?

Did not include Kepler as one of the under-performing players.

Sands has allowed 9 runs over his last 7 innings, that's more than a "couple."

The team is winning, but I stand by my statements. It is just a matter of time before these poor performances and decisions catch up to them.

My expectations are that these are major league players and need to perform as such. Same goes for Baldelli - put the spreadsheet down play the players that are performing.

 

[USAFChief]

5 hours ago, Linus said:

So far. Gurriel has a track record. The point about the Polo trade is he was a valuable asset at the time of the trade. Literally one of the best middle infielders available in trade or free agency. They turned that asset into nothing. I have no problem trading either Polo or Julien to improve the team. They ended up having to take a bad deal because they had to dump his salary.  They added no starting pitching. It’s ok to just admit that this past off season has been a cluster. 

Spot on.

They made the Twins weaker with the Polanco trade.

That was pretty apparent at the time of the trade, and even more obvious today.

Trade Polanco? OK. But do so in a way that helps.

 

[Major League Ready]

6 hours ago, USAFChief said:

Spot on.

They made the Twins weaker with the Polanco trade.

That was pretty apparent at the time of the trade, and even more obvious today.

Trade Polanco? OK. But do so in a way that helps.

 

How are they weaker?  Polanco has performed at replacement level.  If DeSclafani was playing but performing at replacement level or had they signed a free agent preforming this way there would be significant criticism.  If they don't get a decent player out of Gonzalez or Bowen, it's a bad trade but we are not weaker having traded a player forming at replacement level.  Obviously, Polanco could turn it around but he is hurt now too.  Let's not forget he was somewhat of an injury risk as well.  

[Mike Sixel]

14 hours ago, USAFChief said:

Spot on.

They made the Twins weaker with the Polanco trade.

That was pretty apparent at the time of the trade, and even more obvious today.

Trade Polanco? OK. But do so in a way that helps.

 

Polanco has been bad. And they love veterans, so he'd be playing and not Miranda .....

[Riverbrian]

3 hours ago, Mike Sixel said:

Polanco has been bad. And they love veterans, so he'd be playing and not Miranda .....

If Polanco was still on the roster... Chances are that Santana and Margot are not. 

So Therefore. 

[USAFChief]

4 hours ago, Mike Sixel said:

Polanco has been bad. And they love veterans, so he'd be playing and not Miranda .....

1. And?

2. Losing Polanco for Desclafani and Topa unquestionably made the Twins weaker. 

3. As I said, if they needed to trade Polanco, OK. But don't make a trade that weakens the team.

 

[Linus]

People are missing the point. Payroll cuts dictated that Polo was going to be traded. Fine - get a pitcher but they couldn’t and instead of dealing Julien or some other combination they had to take whatever they could get for Polo which essentially was G Gonzalez after they said he wasn’t going to be dealt for prospects. So the point isn’t that Polo isn’t hitting right now the point is payroll cuts forced them to take a deal that didn’t help them in 2024. That’s the point of the article. 

[Mike Sixel]

4 hours ago, USAFChief said:

1. And?

2. Losing Polanco for Desclafani and Topa unquestionably made the Twins weaker. 

3. As I said, if they needed to trade Polanco, OK. But don't make a trade that weakens the team.

 

You can only make the trade you can make. They weren't getting a good major league player for polanco. 

[NYCTK]

On 5/17/2024 at 6:29 PM, Linus said:

They turned that asset into nothing.

That's just nonsense. Even if the Twins don't wait to see if he matures to a legitimate major leaguer, they could turn around and trade Gonzalez this deadline for someone like Pete Alonso, or at least the primary piece in such a trade. 

He's a top 100 prospect that is going to be in AA before the end of the season. Those are valuable assets. 

[Linus]

1 hour ago, NYCTK said:

That's just nonsense. Even if the Twins don't wait to see if he matures to a legitimate major leaguer, they could turn around and trade Gonzalez this deadline for someone like Pete Alonso, or at least the primary piece in such a trade. 

He's a top 100 prospect that is going to be in AA before the end of the season. Those are valuable assets. 

Sure he’s a lottery ticket. My reference is the Twins said they weren’t trading him for prospects. In terms of benefitting this years team they turned him into nothing. 

[USAFChief]

1 hour ago, NYCTK said:

That's just nonsense. Even if the Twins don't wait to see if he matures to a legitimate major leaguer, they could turn around and trade Gonzalez this deadline for someone like Pete Alonso, or at least the primary piece in such a trade. 

He's a top 100 prospect that is going to be in AA before the end of the season. Those are valuable assets. 

You're dreaming. An A ball outfielder isn't netting Pete Alonso.

And the Twins aren't trading for Pete Alonso, for that matter.

[NYCTK]

Mets aren't getting more than a top 100 and a fringe. Gabriel and someone like Schobel is basically all they're getting for Pete. You're probably right, the top 100 will likely be more advanced than A+ but the point stands, Gonzalez isn't nothing. He's an asset. 

[NYCTK]

3 hours ago, Linus said:

Sure he’s a lottery ticket. My reference is the Twins said they weren’t trading him for prospects. In terms of benefitting this years team they turned him into nothing. 

He's not even a lottery ticket. Sure he's no Jenkins but top 100 prospects have value. And losing Polanco didn't hurt the team. Like everyone else said, you're not getting a top end Major League ready arm in exchange for one season of a recently hurt 2 WAR upside player holding a 2 WAR salary. That was basically a Win-Win trade. 

[Major League Ready]

On 5/18/2024 at 6:08 PM, USAFChief said:

1. And?

2. Losing Polanco for Desclafani and Topa unquestionably made the Twins weaker. 

3. As I said, if they needed to trade Polanco, OK. But don't make a trade that weakens the team.

 

You keep saying they made the team weaker without offering any support of that statement.  Who are they playing in Polanco's place that has been less productive?  How does losing a player that has produced negative WAR hurt the team?  When you say "unquestionably" you should easily be able to account for how the team is weaker.