3 Reasons the Twins Keep Trading for Injured Pitchers

[chpettit19]

1 hour ago, CCHOF5yearstoolate said:

"People aren't actually saying the thing I'm accusing them of saying" is wild. You're reading implications that aren't there and acting like that is some dominating sentiment here.

Not sure who "Louis" Varland is but.... They clearly had a plan for Louie to come out of the bullpen in the playoffs and that was discussed for much of the summer last year. Yes, any statement alluding to saying Dallas Keuchel is a better starter than Louie Varland is full-blown ridiculous. Not sure how many more times I'll have to say that he was a rookie last year.

Polanco would take ABs from any young infielder. Julien, Kirilloff and eventually Brooks Lee. Santana plays a strong 1B, and will be a platoon RHB once Brooks Lee is called up, or just the 1B if Kirilloff is injured or stinks. 

Sorry, I just can't past the dichotomy of you saying the Tigers are going to win 12 more games than last year and getting mad at some boogeyman posters saying the Twins are a 100 win team. Neither of those things are reality, in the slightest.

Cleveland's rotation is already injured, FYI.

You are layin

Again, never said people are actually saying that (other than a few posts here and there), what I am saying is that people are acting like it's ridiculous to question things because this team is so loaded. You are currently calling me "full-blown ridiculous" for questioning Louie Varland's ability to be a major league starter yet you can't comprehend how I could suggest people are acting like this team is super loaded? Cool.

Show me the articles early in the summer where they were discussing Louie coming out of the bullpen in the playoffs. The Twins decided Keuchel was better. I'm sorry if you disagree with that, but the Twins were trying to win baseball games last year and they chose Keuchel. Yes, Varland was a rookie, but that doesn't mean he's automatically going to be better this year. Last year the Twins decided he wasn't good enough to make starts for the team while they tried to win the division. Last year they decided he wasn't as good as Dallas Keuchel. I don't know how you can argue with that when it's literally what happened. He doesn't automatically become good enough this year because he was a rookie last year. Plenty of rookies get sent back down and never get better. In fact, the vast majority of them work out that way. You can say he's a rookie as many times as you'd like, it doesn't change the fact that last year he wasn't good enough to be a starter over Dallas Keuchel and he doesn't automatically become better by not being a rookie this year.

Polanco would DH like Kirilloff is going to do now. Or Julien would.  Who's going down when Lee is called up that's going to allow Santana to platoon? And why couldn't Polanco have done the same platooning as Santana in that situation? Give me your starting lineups against righties and lefties where Polanco is taking ABs from guys. 

You think a Twins team winning somewhere in the mid-80s worth of games is going to walk to the division. Cool. I disagree. We'll see. I have no idea what "you are layin" means, but we disagree. Nothing wrong with that. I hope Louie is great. I hope the lineup doesn't need Polanco. I hope they win 100 games. I hope they walk away with the division with 87 wins. I'm sorry if I don't have blind optimism that those things are going to happen. We don't seem to be making any progress in our discussion so I don't see the value in continuing it.

[chpettit19]

9 minutes ago, DJL44 said:

Cutting $25-30M out of the payroll was pretty certain to lead to a less talented team.

It certainly didn't make it easy, that's for sure. But choosing to pay Santana and DeSclafani instead of Polanco wasn't necessary to still cut payroll. That was a choice they made and I don't think it was a good one. There were other ways to cut payroll that I don't think would've hurt the talent level as much. But I'm aware I'm amongst the minority when it comes to my view on Polanco and what he would provide to the lineup. 

To tie this all back to the topic of this article, I would've been far happier with a Polanco trade that returned them an actual MLB starting pitcher. Even if it meant a lesser return in the rest of the package. I think trading for another injured starter was a massive mistake for the 2024 Twins. And I really hope they quit targeting injured starters.

[Major League Ready]

1 hour ago, chpettit19 said:

Jorge Polanco is about to hit 3 hole for a playoff contender. He hit 2 hole in the playoffs for this very team last season. If that's not a "heart of the order hitter" I don't know what the definition of "heart of the order hitter" is. If the Twins have no place for him in their lineup this is going to be an incredibly fun season and we should be talking about them as a 100 win team, not somewhere in the mid-80s. Is Louis Varland an MLB quality starter? Because he got passed up by 35 year old Dallas Keuchel last year. I'm pretty sure that wasn't to keep an MLB quality starter in AAA as depth. We hope Varland is an MLB quality starter, but he hasn't proven to be yet. That's not doom and gloom it's reality. And top 100 prospects with no plate discipline fail constantly. That's just reality. And I'm not interested in top 100 prospects for the 2 hole hitter in a lineup coming off an ALDS trip.

It's not doom and gloom to point out that a team in an awful division predicted to win 85-87 games has some legitimate questions. People around here are acting like this is a 100 win team. The reality is that this is likely a solid team who should make the playoffs, but has real question marks, and wouldn't have a 30 for 30 made about the great collapse of the juggernaut 2024 Twins if they lose the division. If you're predicting 100 wins, sure, my post was doom and gloom. If you're like all the projection systems and betting lines and are looking at last year's results and predicting mid-80s for wins then you have questions, too. Not sure why me pointing out 2 of them is doom and gloom.

Where he hit last year or will hit for a different team matters little.  What would be his role on this team.  Who is he replacing in the starting line-up on this team.  Julien took his spot.  You just have a real hard time with this fact.  Farmer is at least as good as a platoon partner, has better defensive flexibility and can back-up Correa.   Did the Rays hand on to Adames when Franco became established?  No. Holding onto a player is shortsighted.  Obviously, it's a bust if Gonzalez busts but there is a massive upside to this typer of trade.  This type of trade is how a team with less revenue builds a quality roster of inexpensive players which facilitates the ability to extend players or sign free agents like Correa.   Replacing Polanco with a combination of Julien and Farmer has little downside as long as they stay reasonably healthy.  Every baseball reporter that commented on the trade said something along these lines.   I did not see/hear one single reporter align with what you are saying.

[chpettit19]

4 minutes ago, Major League Ready said:

Where he hit last year or will hit for a different team matters little.  What would be his role on this team.  Who is he replacing in the starting line-up on this team.  Julien took his spot.  You just seem to be unable to accept this fact.  Farmer is at least as good as a platoon partner, has better defensive flexibility and can back-up Correa.   Did the Rays hand on to Adames when Franco became established?  No. Holding onto a player is shortsighted.  Obviously, it's a bust if Gonzalez busts but there is a massive upside to this typer of trade.  This type of trade is how a team with less revenue builds a quality roster of inexpensive players which facilitates the ability to extend players or sign free agents like Correa.   Replacing Polanco with a combination of Julien and Farmer has little downside as long as they stay reasonably healthy.  Every baseball reporter that commented on the trade said something along these lines.   I did not see/hear one single reporter align with what you are saying.

Carlos Santana. There are 9 spots in a starting lineup. A whole bunch of you just seem to be unable to accept this fact. Jorge Polanco would easily be one of the Twins 9 best hitters and he'd start everyday because there's a DH spot so many of you seem to forget about. Carlos Santana hasn't hit righties in 3 years and he's about to start against them everyday. The idea that Jorge Polanco wouldn't start for this team is nonsense. 

I'm not going to have the same "less revenue team building strategy" talk with you. We have different goals. Accept that fact. A whole bunch of reporters disagreed with your stance on the Twins spending, but that's not going to stop you from telling us all how wrong they are.

[DJL44]

3 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

It certainly didn't make it easy, that's for sure. But choosing to pay Santana and DeSclafani instead of Polanco wasn't necessary to still cut payroll. That was a choice they made and I don't think it was a good one. There were other ways to cut payroll that I don't think would've hurt the talent level as much. But I'm aware I'm amongst the minority when it comes to my view on Polanco and what he would provide to the lineup. 

They would have had Polanco but still would have needed a 1B, a reliever and another starting pitcher.

Nobody was going to offer a good, cheap starting pitcher in return for Jorge Polanco. Starting pitching is scarce, second basemen are not.

It could be worse - they could have traded Polanco for prospects, avoided signing Santana and signed Giolito to take the spot in the rotation. It does make me sad that the two free agent pitchers I would have gladly signed for the contract they received were Sonny Gray and Kenta Maeda.

[Eicemann]

On 3/21/2024 at 7:52 AM, chpettit19 said:

Steer, CES, and Polanco would look awfully nice in this lineup right now. The idea that they aren't paying much for these pitchers seems false to me. Those are 3 legitimate MLB bats that were traded for what may end up being 9 total starts from the starting arms they got back. I know they got more for Polanco, but I don't buy that DeSclafani was just some throw in on the deal. And even if he was, you shouldn't treat a rotation spot as a "throw in" on a deal. So either way I don't like it.

If the strategy worked out more often I'd be more willing to buy it as a smart strategy. But it hasn't worked out at all. At some point you need to look at the results and adjust your strategy.

Patrick Ruesse recently reported that DeSclafani was foisted upon the Twins by the Mariners as a means of defraying the cost of assuming Polanco's contract.  IDK how strongly Falvine felt about his ability to recuperate & contribute this season.  But they must have preferred taking that risk v. the alternative of asborbing a significant portion of Polanco's salary. 

[CCHOF5yearstoolate]

9 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

Again, never said people are actually saying that (other than a few posts here and there), what I am saying is that people are acting like it's ridiculous to question things because this team is so loaded. You are currently calling me "full-blown ridiculous" for questioning Louie Varland's ability to be a major league starter yet you can't comprehend how I could suggest people are acting like this team is super loaded? Cool.

Show me the articles early in the summer where they were discussing Louie coming out of the bullpen in the playoffs. The Twins decided Keuchel was better. I'm sorry if you disagree with that, but the Twins were trying to win baseball games last year and they chose Keuchel. Yes, Varland was a rookie, but that doesn't me he's automatically going to be better this year. Last year the Twins decided he wasn't good enough to make starts for the team while they tried to win the division. Last year they decided he wasn't as good as Dallas Keuchel. I don't know how you can argue with that when it's literally what happened. He doesn't automatically become good enough this year because he was a rookie last year. Plenty of rookies get sent back down and never get better. In fact, the vast majority of them work out that way. You can say he's a rookie as many times as you'd like, it doesn't change the fact that last year he wasn't good enough to be a starter over Dallas Keuchel and he doesn't automatically become better by not being a rookie this year.

Polanco would DH like Kirilloff is going to do now. Or Julien would.  Who's going down when Lee is called up that's going to allow Santana to platoon? And why couldn't Polanco have done the same platooning as Santana in that situation? Give me your starting lineups against righties and lefties where Polanco is taking ABs from guys. 

You think a Twins team winning somewhere in the mid-80s worth of games is going to walk to the division. Cool. I disagree. We'll see. I have no idea what "you are layin" means, but we disagree. Nothing wrong with that. I hope Louie is great. I hope the lineup doesn't need Polanco. I hope they win 100 games. I hope they walk away with the division with 87 wins. I'm sorry if I don't have blind optimism that those things are going to happen. We don't seem to be making any progress in our discussion so I don't see the value in continuing it.

That first bolded statement is simply not true. Me questioning the motivation behind an implication that Louie Varland is worse than Dallas Keuchel clearly and obviously is not the same as saying the team is loaded and you can't "question things." 

I'm not acting like Louie Varland is automatically going to become better any more than you are acting like he's automatically going to be a bust. The difference is that any unbiased look at Louie Varland from the last 3 months is going to support what I am actually saying: that he's a very promising young starter who most teams in this league would gladly take to upgrade the bottom of their rotations.

I'm not going to spend the time to type out full lineups. The difference is clear, Santana is a better RHB and Polanco is a better LHB. Kiriloff, Julien and Lee are better LHB who would lose ABs against RHP if Polanco was in the lineup everyday.

Yeah, I think the AL Central is a horse **** division and the Twins are currently the only team projected anywhere close to a top 10 team in baseball and that they have the 3rd best odds of any team to win their division. Sorry that seems like a crazy opinion to you! Blind pessimism is not the answer to perceived blind optimism.

I hit enter before finishing my comment and immediately edited it. 

[DJL44]

9 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

Carlos Santana. There are 9 spots in a starting lineup. A whole bunch of you just seem to be unable to accept this fact. Jorge Polanco would easily be one of the Twins 9 best hitters and he'd start everyday because there's a DH spot so many of you seem to forget about. Carlos Santana hasn't hit righties in 3 years and he's about to start against them everyday. The idea that Jorge Polanco wouldn't start for this team is nonsense. 

Making Polanco the everyday 1B was certainly an option. It worked pretty well with Arraez. That's Santana's role right now because Kirilloff has been a bad enough infielder that they want to hide him at DH.

[USAFChief]

16 hours ago, DJL44 said:

An expensive heart of the order hitter for a cheap, good reliever and cheap, bad pitching depth. Cutting salary was the top priority in the Polanco trade, not getting better. Cutting payroll was the priority of the whole offseason. The only reason they exercised Polanco's option at all was to trade him. Julien is clearly their choice for 2B.

If Topa is actually a cheap, bad reliever then they messed up big time.

Your contention is Falvine traded a guy slated to hit third for a post season contender, for a 30+ year old reliever with 1 year of decent history?

Yeah, no.

They traded Polanco for the starting pitching everyone, EVERYone, said all fall and winter they needed.

And still do need, BTW.

 

[DJL44]

2 minutes ago, USAFChief said:

Your contention is Falvine traded a guy slated to hit third for a post season contender, for a 30+ year old reliever with 1 year of decent history?

And a top 100 prospect. The top of the Twins order should be Julien, Correa and Lewis - Polanco wouldn't be hitting 3rd except for injuries to someone else. As mentioned by someone else, Polanco would have the 8th best projection of the Twins hitters. You are also assuming good health from Polanco and he's missed half of each of the last two seasons.

Other than overestimating Polanco's likely contribution and completely ignoring the value of a top 100 prospect you have it correct.

[chpettit19]

45 minutes ago, DJL44 said:

They would have had Polanco but still would have needed a 1B, a reliever and another starting pitcher.

Nobody was going to offer a good, cheap starting pitcher in return for Jorge Polanco. Starting pitching is scarce, second basemen are not.

It could be worse - they could have traded Polanco for prospects, avoided signing Santana and signed Giolito to take the spot in the rotation. It does make me sad that the two free agent pitchers I would have gladly signed for the contract they received were Sonny Gray and Kenta Maeda.

They still need another starting pitcher, that's the point of my disagreement with this article. Relievers are cheap, fungible assets as I already pointed out. And Polanco, Kirilloff, Farmer, and Julien could all play 1B. 

I would've been quite happy to trade more than Polanco for a real starting pitcher. I'd have traded anyone not named Jenkins from the system.

But we're way off topic now. My fault, but we need to get back to the topic of the thread.

[chpettit19]

27 minutes ago, Eicemann said:

Patrick Ruesse recently reported that DeSclafani was foisted upon the Twins by the Mariners as a means of defraying the cost of assuming Polanco's contract.  IDK how strongly Falvine felt about his ability to recuperate & contribute this season.  But they must have preferred taking that risk v. the alternative of asborbing a significant portion of Polanco's salary. 

They're paying DeSclafani 4 million. Polanco is being paid 10.5. How much of the extra 6.5 were the Twins not prepared to pay? Those are miniscule numbers.

[USAFChief]

11 minutes ago, DJL44 said:

And a top 100 prospect. The top of the Twins order should be Julien, Correa and Lewis - Polanco wouldn't be hitting 3rd except for injuries to someone else. As mentioned by someone else, Polanco would have the 8th best projection of the Twins hitters. You are also assuming good health from Polanco and he's missed half of each of the last two seasons.

Other than overestimating Polanco's likely contribution and completely ignoring the value of a top 100 prospect you have it correct.

Polanco is likely SEATTLE'S 3 hole hitter. 

And if they targeted an A ball outfielder as a way to add the starter EVERYone agreed they were targeting....well, let's just say that didn't happen.

They were trying to add a starter. That's what they attempted. They just didn't do very well. 

[chpettit19]

46 minutes ago, CCHOF5yearstoolate said:

That first bolded statement is simply not true. Me questioning the motivation behind an implication that Louie Varland is worse than Dallas Keuchel clearly and obviously is not the same as saying the team is loaded and you can't "question things." 

I'm not acting like Louie Varland is automatically going to become better any more than you are acting like he's automatically going to be a bust. The difference is that any unbiased look at Louie Varland from the last 3 months is going to support what I am actually saying: that he's a very promising young starter who most teams in this league would gladly take to upgrade the bottom of their rotations.

I'm not going to spend the time to type out full lineups. The difference is clear, Santana is a better RHB and Polanco is a better LHB. Kiriloff, Julien and Lee are better LHB who would lose ABs against RHP if Polanco was in the lineup everyday.

Yeah, I think the AL Central is a horse **** division and the Twins are currently the only team projected anywhere close to a top 10 team in baseball and that they have the 3rd best odds of any team to win their division. Sorry that seems like a crazy opinion to you! Blind pessimism is not the answer to perceived blind optimism.

I hit enter before finishing my comment and immediately edited it. 

I haven't implied that Varland is worse than Keuchel I have stated over and over again that he was beaten out by Dallas Keuchel last year. I don't know how else to say that more clearly than this. Last year the Twins needed a starting pitcher while they were in the heart of a division battle in early August and they chose Dallas Keuchel over Louie Varland. They didn't think Louie Varland was good enough to start games that mattered for them over Dallas Keuchel. That isn't an opinion. That is what happened.

My point isn't that Varland is going to bust. My point is that he was slated for AAA because he hasn't yet shown he was good enough to be in the majors. My point is that they brought in an injured MLB pitcher with the plans of putting him in their rotation over Varland because they didn't think Varland was proven yet and because he was cheaper to acquire and that plan has now blown up. 

Carlos Santana is set to bat everyday against righties. It simply isn't true that Polanco would take ABs from young players. He's a 1 for 1 replacement for Carlos Santana who is set to start everyday for the 2024 Minnesota Twins.

I haven't said I don't expect the Twins to win the division. I'm not being blindly pessimistic. I'm not being pessimistic at all, actually. The fact that you're taking me questioning a completely unproven starting pitcher who couldn't beat out Dallas Keuchel last year as blind pessimism says all I need to know. I expect the Twins to win 85-87 games and likely win the division. I don't think it'll be a cake walk as I expect at least 2 other teams to finish at or above .500. If that's blind pessimism I guess I'm just a super negative person.

[USAFChief]

7 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

They're paying DeSclafani 4 million. Polanco is being paid 10.5. How much of the extra 6.5 were the Twins not prepared to pay? Those are miniscule numbers.

They turned around and spent that $6.5 anyway.

[chpettit19]

32 minutes ago, DJL44 said:

Making Polanco the everyday 1B was certainly an option. It worked pretty well with Arraez. That's Santana's role right now because Kirilloff has been a bad enough infielder that they want to hide him at DH.

All I'm saying about Polanco is that he's a very clear 1 for 1 replacement for Santana. Lots of ways they could move guys around to get them all in the order. When 38-year old Carlos Santana is starting for you everyday I don't accept for a single second that Jorge Polanco wouldn't be a starter.

To my eyes the Twins thought they could boost the pen and rotation while dropping some in the lineup. So far the rotation boost looks to be a complete loss, but we'll see what the pen boost looks like.

[CCHOF5yearstoolate]

1 minute ago, chpettit19 said:

I haven't implied that Varland is worse than Keuchel I have stated over and over again that he was beaten out by Dallas Keuchel last year. I don't know how else to say that more clearly than this. Last year the Twins needed a starting pitcher while they were in the heart of a division battle in early August and they chose Dallas Keuchel over Louie Varland. They didn't think Louie Varland was good enough to start games that mattered for them over Dallas Keuchel. That isn't an opinion. That is provable fact.

Carlos Santana is set to bat everyday against righties. It simply isn't true that Polanco would take ABs from young players. He's a 1 for 1 replacement for Carlos Santana who is set to start everyday for the 2024 Minnesota Twins.

I haven't said I don't expect the Twins to win the division. I'm not being blindly pessimistic. I'm not being pessimistic at all, actually. The fact that you're taking me questioning a completely unproven starting pitcher who couldn't beat out Dallas Keuchel last year as blind pessimism says all I need to know. I expect the Twins to win 85-87 games and likely win the division. I don't think it'll be a cake walk as I expect at least 2 other teams to finish at or above .500. If that's blind pessimism I guess I'm just a super negative person.

If you keep saying that Keuchel was a "better option" last year then yeah it seems pretty clear what you're implying. I've been trying to say that he's a better 5th starter option than almost every other team in baseball has, the constant Keuchel discussion is irrelevant to that. 

You don't think it will be easier to cut playing time from Carlos Santana to make room for Brooks Lee, a guy who does exactly what Jorge Polanco does? Whether or not Carlos Santana starts the season playing against RHP is not a rebuttal to "Jorge Polanco would take away ABs from young infielders over the course of a full season." It's just not, unless you're expecting Carlos Santana to end the year with 600 PA.

I take issue with "questioning" being used as a way to project pessimism compared to league-wide projections. It's an all-too-common cop out method nowadays to say "I'm just asking questions" when there's a pretty clear underlying narrative.

Also, those 85-87 win projections are saying exactly what I have been saying. That Louie Varland is one of the best 5th starters in the league and the Twins are not going to struggle to replace Polanco's bat - again he's projected to be the 8th best bat in the Twins lineup. If you're not expecting that to be true, you must be expecting ~4 wins to come from somewhere else on the team to match up with the win totals.

I believe if you "questioned" the Guardians and the Tigers in the same manner, you would come to a different conclusion.

[bean5302]

As I read through this seemingly very emotionally charged topic, I realized... somebody was WRONG on the internet, and it MUST be corrected!

[chpettit19]

1 minute ago, CCHOF5yearstoolate said:

If you keep saying that Keuchel was a "better option" last year then yeah it seems pretty clear what you're implying. I've been trying to say that he's a better 5th starter option than almost every other team in baseball has, the constant Keuchel discussion is irrelevant to that. 

You don't think it will be easier to cut playing time from Carlos Santana to make room for Brooks Lee, a guy who does exactly what Jorge Polanco does? Whether or not Carlos Santana starts the season playing against RHP is not a rebuttal to "Jorge Polanco would take away ABs from young infielders over the course of a full season." It's just not, unless you're expecting Carlos Santana to end the year with 600 PA.

I take issue with "questioning" being used as a way to project pessimism compared to league-wide projections. It's an all-too-common cop out method nowadays to say "I'm just asking questions" when there's a pretty clear underlying narrative.

Also, those 85-87 win projections are saying exactly what I have been saying. That Louie Varland is one of the best 5th starters in the league and the Twins are not going to struggle to replace Polanco's bat - again he's projected to be the 8th best bat in the Twins lineup. If you're not expecting that to be true, you must be expecting ~4 wins to come from somewhere else on the team to match up with the win totals.

I believe if you "questioned" the Guardians and the Tigers in the same manner, you would come to a different conclusion.

The Twins chose Keuchel. I don't know what else you want me to say. The Twins had both Dallas Keuchel and Louie Varland in AAA on August 6th when they needed a starting pitcher for the Twins in games that mattered. They chose Dallas Keuchel. Louie Varland won't get credit from me for being "a better 5th starter option than almost every other team in baseball has" until he shows he's actually a major league starter. Cuz as of this second he hasn't proven that. As shown by the fact that the Twins chose Dallas Keuchel over him last year. He wasn't good enough then and he doesn't get credit for being good enough now just because time has elapsed. I'm glad you think he's one of the best 5th starters in baseball, though.

Who are the Twins replacing on the roster when they call Lee up in this hypothetical situation? If Santana is still on the roster when Lee is promoted it's incredibly likely that Lee is replacing an injured starter, right? If that same starter were injured and Polanco was on the team instead of Santana I don't see how it'd change the equation in any way. Or do you think they're going to call Lee up to replace Farmer as the short side platoon, defensive replacement, part time backup infielder? Jorge Polanco wouldn't take anymore ABs from young players than Santana would because the young players that matter would only be called up to replace an injured starter and would be taking that job over full-time. Unless you think they're going to DFA Carlos Santana to call up Brooks Lee. I can't think of many examples of this regime making such moves, though.

My "underlying narrative" is that the Twins didn't think Varland was good enough last year, traded for an injured starter that they planned to place over him this year because that injured starter was cheaper than a real starter, and that plan has blown up and instead they are forced to put in the starter they didn't want to start and have hurt their offense while hoping a 32 year old reliever with 1 successful major league season can make up the difference. I'm not "just asking questions." I'm flat out saying that was horrible roster management for the 2024 Minnesota Twins and made the team worse because they think there's value in taking on extra injury risk when taking on that risk has lead to incredibly poor results nearly every time they've done it.

We're way off track here, though. You can respond however you'd like to make your final rebuttal, but we need to stop this discussion as it's gotten too far off of the main topic of the Twins trading for injured pitchers.

 

[Major League Ready]

1 hour ago, chpettit19 said:

Carlos Santana. There are 9 spots in a starting lineup. A whole bunch of you just seem to be unable to accept this fact. Jorge Polanco would easily be one of the Twins 9 best hitters and he'd start everyday because there's a DH spot so many of you seem to forget about. Carlos Santana hasn't hit righties in 3 years and he's about to start against them everyday. The idea that Jorge Polanco wouldn't start for this team is nonsense. 

I'm not going to have the same "less revenue team building strategy" talk with you. We have different goals. Accept that fact. A whole bunch of reporters disagreed with your stance on the Twins spending, but that's not going to stop you from telling us all how wrong they are.

I am not forgetting about the DH spot and I would agree with you that I would prefer to have Polanco vs Sanatana as a pure DH.  However, many teams prefer not to roster someone as a primary DH and I think the twins are one of them.  Santana is here because we had no (good) depth at all for 1B.  Who do we play there if Kirilloff goes down?  Rocco actually said during the broadcast yesterday it's not as simple as putting the best 26 guys on the roster.  They have to fit together.  Kirilloff/Santana offer flexibility and depth that does not exist with Polanco on the roster instead of Santana.  Kirilloff could go to the OF if needed at times.  He can pitch hit for Margot and replace him in the OF when Margot starts at a corner spot against LHP.  

Let's not forget that it's not as simple as Polanco vs his replacements.  We got Topa and DeSclafani.  Most people think Topa is a pretty darn good RP.  DeSclafani is a decent depth piece.  Obviously, he needs to be able to give them some innings but if he is available there is value in that depth.

[CCHOF5yearstoolate]

11 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

We're way off track here, though. You can respond however you'd like to make your final rebuttal, but we need to stop this discussion as it's gotten too far off of the main topic of the Twins trading for injured pitchers.

I've said my piece and am not particularly interested in hitting a brick wall any further. 

[chpettit19]

26 minutes ago, Major League Ready said:

I am not forgetting about the DH spot and I would agree with you that I would prefer to have Polanco vs Sanatana as a pure DH.  However, many teams prefer not to roster someone as a primary DH and I think the twins are one of them.  Santana is here because we had no (good) depth at all for 1B.  Who do we play there if Kirilloff goes down?  Rocco actually said during the broadcast yesterday it's not as simple as putting the best 26 guys on the roster.  They have to fit together.  Kirilloff/Santana offer flexibility and depth that does not exist with Polanco on the roster instead of Santana.  Kirilloff could go to the OF if needed at times.  He can pitch hit for Margot and replace him in the OF when Margot starts at a corner spot against LHP.  

Let's not forget that it's not as simple as Polanco vs his replacements.  We got Topa and DeSclafani.  Most people think Topa is a pretty darn good RP.  DeSclafani is a decent depth piece.  Obviously, he needs to be able to give them some innings but if he is available there is value in that depth.

Life long short stop Jorge Polanco can handle first base I'm pretty sure. They moved Arraez there midseason. Polanco actually offers significantly more roster flexibility than 1B/DH only Santana.

DeSclafani is hurt and more likely to throw 0 pitches for the Twins than provide any kind of production at all. It's the point of my disagreement with the idea in this article that all pitchers are injury risks so it's all the same. He was a significantly larger injury risk than the average pitcher and he's staring TJ surgery in the face now. Topa is 32 and has 1 successful major league season to his name. I hope he's good, but he's not different than any other incredibly volatile relief arm. So for the 2024 Twins the FO turned Jorge Polanco into Carlos Santana and a reliever in his 30s with 1 good season to his name. You're not going to sell me on that being an upgrade in talent, or lineup flexibility. Give me Polanco, Lorenzen, and a random cheap reliever (they got Jackson for 1.5 this year, had Hoffman and Coulombe in camp on minor league deals last year that they just let walk as examples of the random minor league deals you can find to replace a Topa more years than not). That trade hurt the 2024 Twins because trading for injured pitchers is a bad strategy that the Twins need to stop trying to make work.

[Major League Ready]

3 hours ago, chpettit19 said:

Life long short stop Jorge Polanco can handle first base I'm pretty sure. They moved Arraez there midseason. Polanco actually offers significantly more roster flexibility than 1B/DH only Santana.

DeSclafani is hurt and more likely to throw 0 pitches for the Twins than provide any kind of production at all. It's the point of my disagreement with the idea in this article that all pitchers are injury risks so it's all the same. He was a significantly larger injury risk than the average pitcher and he's staring TJ surgery in the face now. Topa is 32 and has 1 successful major league season to his name. I hope he's good, but he's not different than any other incredibly volatile relief arm. So for the 2024 Twins the FO turned Jorge Polanco into Carlos Santana and a reliever in his 30s with 1 good season to his name. You're not going to sell me on that being an upgrade in talent, or lineup flexibility. Give me Polanco, Lorenzen, and a random cheap reliever (they got Jackson for 1.5 this year, had Hoffman and Coulombe in camp on minor league deals last year that they just let walk as examples of the random minor league deals you can find to replace a Topa more years than not). That trade hurt the 2024 Twins because trading for injured pitchers is a bad strategy that the Twins need to stop trying to make work.

Absolutely agree DeSclafani was risky based on health and share your disagreement with all pitchers are injury risks.  Obviously, some are more risky than others.  I am basically with you on Topa too.  His age before impacting a ML roster makes him suspect but every media guy that spoke about him this off-season sure did seem to think he was real.  I hope they are right.  You and I have been pretty much aligned on Santana too.  I know he plays good D but he would not have been my first choice. 

I am not as sure as you are about Polanco at 1B.   I think it's a totally different skill set,  He looked pretty bad a 3B which is a lot more like 1B than SS.  All this aside.  I would trade him for value without hesitation given the roster construction.  Tampa and Cleveland are good at getting guys that are on the cusp of the ML level.  Those guys are less risky.  Gonzalez has a high ceiling but he is no lock to be a ML player.  

[sweetmusicviola16]

The Mariners made this trade believing they made a good trade. They do not feel as though they were fleeced. This is how I break it down: The Twins got Topa and cash for taking DeSclafani. I'm honestly convinced of that. The M's had no use for DeSclafani. The rest of the trade is Polanco for Gonzalez and Bowen. We will not know for a few years at least if this trade works out. But at the very least the FO was not honest. We were told that Polanco would not be traded for prospects but he was imo. And the SP that we were told was the highest priority ended up being Topa an RP.

[Eicemann]

On 3/22/2024 at 10:02 AM, chpettit19 said:

They're paying DeSclafani 4 million. Polanco is being paid 10.5. How much of the extra 6.5 were the Twins not prepared to pay? Those are miniscule numbers.

You're right.  I think I misunderstood what Patrick said.  I now believe that accepting DeSclafani was a stipulation made by Seattle in order to include the particular minor league players that the Twins wanted and received in the trade.  Excluding him would have resulted in the Mariners substituting less highly regarded MiLB players or excluding them altogether. 

[DJL44]

On 3/22/2024 at 2:46 PM, Major League Ready said:

I am not as sure as you are about Polanco at 1B.   I think it's a totally different skill set,  He looked pretty bad a 3B which is a lot more like 1B than SS. 

No, 3B is much more like SS than 1B. Polanco can't throw very well. Infielders who can't throw play at 2B and 1B.

[Major League Ready]

3 hours ago, DJL44 said:

No, 3B is much more like SS than 1B. Polanco can't throw very well. Infielders who can't throw play at 2B and 1B.

I didn't think his arm was that much of a problem.  He just didn't have the footwork and I thought he looked quite shaky on the quick reaction type plays common with either corner infield spot.

[DJL44]

1 hour ago, Major League Ready said:

I didn't think his arm was that much of a problem.  He just didn't have the footwork and I thought he looked quite shaky on the quick reaction type plays common with either corner infield spot.

Arm strength 22nd percentile

Jorge Polanco Stats: Statcast, Visuals & Advanced Metrics | baseballsavant.com (mlb.com)

Noted problems with accuracy

How a new arm slot helped Jorge Polanco get rid of ‘that little monster’ - The Athletic

Quote

Not enough arm for throw from 5/6 hole at short stop. Right-side profile. Enough arm to make all of the throws at second base

Baseball Prospectus | | Eyewitness Scouting Report

[Jocko87]

Back on topic, this seems relevant.  Even though reports are that the Twins wanted Miller more, Woo certainly would have wooed Twins faithful but then what would we do with this news?  

https://www.mlb.com/mariners/news/bryan-woo-to-start-season-on-mariners-injured-list

On the bright side, Miller is the less injured of the two so maybe they took that into consideration in who they wanted.  Still want to know who Seattle was asking for though.