Do you believe in these Twins?

[John Belinski]

On 6/16/2023 at 8:20 AM, dxpavelka said:

Twins LFs:  Worst OPS in MLB.

Don't think any Twins OF will get votes for all star team. Twins have usually has at least one good OF.

[Woof Bronzer]

On 6/13/2023 at 8:50 AM, TwinsDr2021 said:

 actual results IMO matter, I don't really care about FIP and BABIP when comparing what has happened, they are both great for predicting what might happen.

This is why I've always said the type of advanced sabermetrics like WAR, FIP can and should be used as a tool to help FOs identify and evaluate talent in roster building, but since the formulas account for things that didn't actually happen (e.g.. normalizing for park), they should not be used to measure current performance.  

[insagt1]

I always chuckle when the metrics come out. It took me years to internalize the made-up stat OPS as being all that relevant to the overall pleasure of watching baseball. You take two existing stats and you add them together, you do the hokey-pokey and you turn yourself around, and thats what its all about...apparently (I'm just messing with any of you who live and die by these things these days...you have to remember I used to watch Stan, Ted, Warren, Whitey and Willie...in their primes!)

Wrc+---Do I need a top-secret clearance to have that one explained, or do I really have a need to know? (my battle station aboard ship was radio central...a lot went on there)

Mickey Mantle ---1960 Me: boy did he give that ball a long ride! My buddy: Sure did, that guy can sure hit! 2023 if Mantle was still around. Me: did you catch the launch angle of that HR. My buddy: yeah and the exit velocity was something else. Casual observer: you guys need to have a few beers and just enjoy the game!

This year's Twins won't make the playoffs. Trivia: how long has it been since the Twins have won a playoff GAME?

[Beast]

This team will not make the playoffs, IMO.

They were carried by unsustainably great starting pitching for a period of time.  That’s drying up.  If they do somehow sneak into the playoffs, I don’t think the rotation is good enough to carry them very far.

The offense and bullpen are in absolute shambles.  There is no correction in sight.  There’s no game changing prospects, no trade ammunition, there’s no help coming.

With the FO sitting on their hands and  management making every move they can to lose baseball games, this thing is close to entering a terminal velocity free fall.  Once they lose the clubhouse, which has to be getting dangerously close, there’s nothing that can be done.

[LastOnePicked]

8 minutes ago, Beast said:

With the FO sitting on their hands and  management making every move they can to lose baseball games, this thing is close to entering a terminal velocity free fall.

Around here, we call that "Total System Failure." I think we're already on our third or fourth one in the last decade.

[AceWrigley]

I pick them to win the division, and may do it with a losing record. Lately I like watching the Reds and the Marlins.

[dxpavelka]

4 hours ago, John Belinski said:

Don't think any Twins OF will get votes for all star team. Twins have usually has at least one good OF.

Now let's not sell 'em short.  Gallo's average is all the way up to .192

 

[Major League Ready]

4 hours ago, insagt1 said:

I always chuckle when the metrics come out. It took me years to internalize the made-up stat OPS as being all that relevant to the overall pleasure of watching baseball. You take two existing stats and you add them together, you do the hokey-pokey and you turn yourself around, and thats what its all about...apparently (I'm just messing with any of you who live and die by these things these days...you have to remember I used to watch Stan, Ted, Warren, Whitey and Willie...in their primes!)

Wrc+---Do I need a top-secret clearance to have that one explained, or do I really have a need to know? (my battle station aboard ship was radio central...a lot went on there)

Mickey Mantle ---1960 Me: boy did he give that ball a long ride! My buddy: Sure did, that guy can sure hit! 2023 if Mantle was still around. Me: did you catch the launch angle of that HR. My buddy: yeah and the exit velocity was something else. Casual observer: you guys need to have a few beers and just enjoy the game!

This year's Twins won't make the playoffs. Trivia: how long has it been since the Twins have won a playoff GAME?

Have you ever done an internet search to try to understand wRC+ or are you just marginalizing without attempting to understand it.  It's not that complicated in theory.  wRC+ utilizes many aspects of offensive production and measures against all other players and then adjust for the ballpark.  It's the most complete measure of any stat I am aware of and by comparing against all other players it provides a very good relative measure of a player's offensive performance.  It does not measure base running so that should be taken into account in terms of comparing players.

[Mike Sixel]

4 hours ago, Major League Ready said:

Have you ever done an internet search to try to understand wRC+ or are you just marginalizing without attempting to understand it.  It's not that complicated in theory.  wRC+ utilizes ma. So many here aren't interestingny aspects of offensive production and measures against all other players and then adjust for the ballpark.  It's the most complete measure of any stat I am aware of and by comparing against all other players it provides a very good relative measure of a player's offensive performance.  It does not measure base running so that should be taken into account in terms of comparing players.

Don't bother. So many here think progress is bad. Imagine these people using computers and cell phones, and thinking math is bad, wrong. 

[insagt1]

I get it guys. I really do. And the above explanation of wRC+ was very instructive to me. I just think that sometimes 'progress' doesn't add to the enjoyment of simply watching a baseball game. Mike-really your comment was not nice. My point honestly was just that Too many 'stats' reduce the game to something that maybe we the fan, don't require while sitting in the stands, having a beer, a dog and enjoying a summer evening at the ballpark.

In any event, a little humor here isn't bad. We can't take each other too seriously. As the immortal Sly Stone once said...different strokes for different folks.

I got to watch Hoyt Wilhelm pitch a no-hitter against the Yankees (before he was known as a relief specialist of his era) Saw Stan Musials last major league hit. Bob Gibsons incredible 1.12 ERA season. Bill Stoneman's no-hitter in the very first month of the Expo's existence. I didn't have all the metrics, nor did any other fan of that day, but we enjoyed the games immensely, armed with just BA, HR's and RBI.

Today its totally different, I know that. And for today's fan, they seem to like all the new metrics. But the day is coming when guys like me won't be around to reminisce about of how the game was in the 'olden days'. It wasn't perfect, but it was fun and many of the players were pretty special. Was it 'better' than today's game? Its all in the perspective of the fan watching the games. And they (we) all have value!

[chpettit19]

20 minutes ago, insagt1 said:

I get it guys. I really do. And the above explanation of wRC+ was very instructive to me. I just think that sometimes 'progress' doesn't add to the enjoyment of simply watching a baseball game. Mike-really your comment was not nice. My point honestly was just that Too many 'stats' reduce the game to something that maybe we the fan, don't require while sitting in the stands, having a beer, a dog and enjoying a summer evening at the ballpark.

In any event, a little humor here isn't bad. We can't take each other too seriously. As the immortal Sly Stone once said...different strokes for different folks.

I got to watch Hoyt Wilhelm pitch a no-hitter against the Yankees (before he was known as a relief specialist of his era) Saw Stan Musials last major league hit. Bob Gibsons incredible 1.12 ERA season. Bill Stoneman's no-hitter in the very first month of the Expo's existence. I didn't have all the metrics, nor did any other fan of that day, but we enjoyed the games immensely, armed with just BA, HR's and RBI.

Today its totally different, I know that. And for today's fan, they seem to like all the new metrics. But the day is coming when guys like me won't be around to reminisce about of how the game was in the 'olden days'. It wasn't perfect, but it was fun and many of the players were pretty special. Was it 'better' than today's game? Its all in the perspective of the fan watching the games. And they (we) all have value!

Isn't watching a game today the same as it used to be? You don't need to look at launch angle or exit velo if you don't want to. We've all watched no hitters, star player's last hits, and any number of great things on the field. Before your time they didn't track BA, HR's, and RBI, and maybe that was complained about when those things started being tracked. Way back in the day it was actually considered rude to hit a HR. 

The place where I see the new stats being the biggest hurdle is when talking about which players to sign, who's having a better season, etc. The older school people grew up with a definition of "great" based primarily around the 3 stats you listed. Teams, and then fans, have gotten smarter and realized the flaws in those stats so started tracking the deeper happenings in the game that get more to the core of what drives those stats, and what's truly the most important things on the field in terms of scoring, or preventing, runs.

Teams getting so heavy into analytics, and diving into the deep end has made the game less enjoyable to watch, in my opinion. It's turned into way too much 3 true outcome, no action baseball. I'm glad the league is attempting to change that. But I go to games semi-regularly, and am pretty sure I watch pretty much the same way you do. Me glancing at the velo numbers when someone hits a mile is basically the same thing as you telling your buddies "dang, did you see how hard he hit that?" We can just put a number on it now.

[insagt1]

I think the 'triple crown' stats have been used for a long time, specially BA. Remember when a HR was was called when a ball bounced over the fence (today's ground rule double)? I believe the gurus of the day determined that none of Ruth's HR's bounced over the fence! Also there was a time when a pitch clock was not needed because the batter stayed in the box for the entire AB, and pitchers who noodled around on the mound were not viewed positively by teammates because they didn't stay sharp when playing the field. Games were played in shorter times partly too because more pitchers threw complete games, meaning fewer pitcher changes.

I'd like to think that watching the games today hasn't changed that much. Most of the metrics 'talk' usually comes from watching the games online where these things can be discussed in true time. Do I think 'all' progress is bad? Of course not. When I was a kid we had one televised game per week. You could only listen to your favorite team with a good AM radio. You got your 'stats' in the Sunday paper. You could also subscribe to the Sporting News. Today everything is at our fingertips and you get to watch every game every night if you wish. Thats pretty awesome.

Whatever the case, its not working for the Twins this year!! Wish that would change.

[Mike Sixel]

2 hours ago, insagt1 said:

I get it guys. I really do. And the above explanation of wRC+ was very instructive to me. I just think that sometimes 'progress' doesn't add to the enjoyment of simply watching a baseball game. Mike-really your comment was not nice. My point honestly was just that Too many 'stats' reduce the game to something that maybe we the fan, don't require while sitting in the stands, having a beer, a dog and enjoying a summer evening at the ballpark.

In any event, a little humor here isn't bad. We can't take each other too seriously. As the immortal Sly Stone once said...different strokes for different folks.

I got to watch Hoyt Wilhelm pitch a no-hitter against the Yankees (before he was known as a relief specialist of his era) Saw Stan Musials last major league hit. Bob Gibsons incredible 1.12 ERA season. Bill Stoneman's no-hitter in the very first month of the Expo's existence. I didn't have all the metrics, nor did any other fan of that day, but we enjoyed the games immensely, armed with just BA, HR's and RBI.

Today its totally different, I know that. And for today's fan, they seem to like all the new metrics. But the day is coming when guys like me won't be around to reminisce about of how the game was in the 'olden days'. It wasn't perfect, but it was fun and many of the players were pretty special. Was it 'better' than today's game? Its all in the perspective of the fan watching the games. And they (we) all have value!

Apologies. I'm just tired of the tone here. My bad.

I do agree with you, progress in increasing batting and pitching has actually decreased the enjoyment of the game. Once we knew stealing bases wasn't a good idea, that was bad. Once we knew that trying to hit a HR instead of just making contact (early in the count) was right, the game lost something.

[insagt1]

Mike--curious to know how management at St.Paul feels about the ABS system being tested in AAA this season. Here is Rochester our manager (and most hitters) like it a lot. It is used in the 1st 3 weekday games. If you are at the game you really have no idea its being used, because there is still an ump behind the plate. Each team is allowed 'challenges' (I think 5 per game) if they feel the ump got it wrong. Clearly there is strategy as to when to use the challenge.

Personally I like it a lot because it seems to be working. It kinda forces the batters to swing at more pitches because they know if it really is a strike, it will be called. And if it means more balls in play, thats a big plus.

As for the pitch clock--that is working fine too. There have been very few called balls or strikes because the pitcher wasn't ready or the batter wasn't in the box. The big debate I see is when an automatic strike is called to end a close game. Or a bases loaded ball is called to force in a winning or tying run.  It has happened a couple times as you know.  But I like the current pace. I also really like the end of the shift. Legitimate balls hit in the hole between 1st and 2nd are hits again, as they should be.

One old 'rule' that I was delighted to see disappear was one that should have never happened at all...the 'neighborhood play at 2nd'. I get that it was supposed to reduce injuries but it got way out of hand. Runners were called out with the fielder practically in the outfield when taking the throw.

It has been fun in recent years watching AAA ball because we are the league that gets to test out all the new stuff.