Escobar

[Badsmerf]

Slightly impressed so far this season. I think the starting SS role shouldn't have been handed to Florimon in the first place. I know Juan Castro once hit .300 into May... so not trying to get crazy. Just thought he has looked much better than I anticipated. O, and Florimon is not a very good SS.

[kab21]

I really don't understand the floriman love in the org but this is a situation where the Twins have 4 utility IF'ers on the roster and 2 of them need to start. Please Dozier become more than a utility IF'er. It would be so nice to have one spot filled with a halfway decent player.

[stringer bell]

From my fan's point of view at spring training, I think Florimon has the best shortstop tools--really good range, strong arm, quick release--and the Twins love those tools. Escobar looks like he can handle the job, but I don't think he will make many web gems. Dozier has been very good at second and provided some offense today. Three days is a very small sample, but I am fairly confident that Dozier will do a good job this year. I wouldn't be surprised to see Escobar grab short away from the flashier Florimon.

[snepp]

Florimon's tools would be interesting if he were 5 years younger. Now he's just the most recent version of Alexi Rivas.

[Riverbrian]

Florimon from what I've seen... If he was just a little stronger on the routine plays... He'd be elite defensively.

 

If he isn't going to be counted on for his bat... He has too make the routine play routine lee.

 

I'm willing to give him a little rope.

[jorgenswest]

I am more hopeful that Escobar will grow offensively over the next few years.

 

Florimon can get a longer chance. His bat will improve also. I am not hopeful that he can become more consistent defensively. While it is not unusual for a young player to improve consistency as they adjust to the speed of professional ball, they usually figure it out by AA and long before age 26.

[Shane Wahl]

Florimon has really struggled on plays with runners on second and where the runner blocks the ball for a second or just disrupts the routine play. I have seen this happen at least twice in his time with the Twins. It's a concentration issue and it can be worked on.

[spideyo]

Escobar almost had a web gem firing a rifle shot in from shallow center, but Doumit couldn't handle the ball

[jorgenswest]

Florimon has really struggled on plays with runners on second and where the runner blocks the ball for a second or just disrupts the routine play. I have seen this happen at least twice in his time with the Twins. It's a concentration issue and it can be worked on.

 

I am sure he can work on it. I don't get why it is still a problem after over 750 games in professional baseball as a shortstop. Reports of inconsistency have followed him through the minors.

[Mr. Brooks]

I really don't understand where this myth that Florimon is good defensively came from.

It's not just this year, it's the same problems we saw last year from him.

Through his limited time in the MLB so far (407 innings), he's been among THE worst fielding SS's in baseball.

[jorgenswest]

He has a good range. He has a good arm. Mixed with his inconsistent play, he is probably somewhere in the middle. Certainly, he is not near the bottom. If he had a bat, that would be OK.

[Mr. Brooks]

He has a good range. He has a good arm. Mixed with his inconsistent play, he is probably somewhere in the middle. Certainly, he is not near the bottom. If he had a bat, that would be OK.

 

Based on what???

Last year, among SS's with at least 350 innings, Florimon was 29th out of 38 in UZR/150. He was 4 spots BELOW Brian Dozier, who was so bad they moved him to a different position.

 

I know it's a fairly small sample size, but so far it's all we have to look at.

 

Again, I ask, where does this myth come from?

He has done nothing to show this "good defense" that he supposedly possesses.

Just having the tools does not make you a good fielder.

[Mike Sixel]

He's better than his numbers....duh.

 

great use of Alexi Rivas above. Awesome sauce.

[jokin]

Again, I ask, where does this myth come from?

He has done nothing to show this "good defense" that he supposedly possesses.

.

 

From the mythbuilders in the front office that thought Nishi would be a clearly better option than the 2012 Gold Glove-winning and year-in, year-out AL top 3 fielding SS?

[ashbury]

Given their respective ages, it made sense to me to start Florimon to begin the season. This is a season of sorting out what we've got. Giving the 26-year-old candidate the chance to produce or get off the throne is one step in that process. I'd say it's too soon to change to Escobar, but at whatever point that change does occur, it means writing Florimon off completely.

[diehardtwinsfan]

If memory serves me right (and I'm too lazy to look it up), escobar is pretty young. He's the type of guy who could put it together and suddenly be a decent option (at least with the bat). It's too soon to say that's happened, but the results are certainly encouraging. Would be nice if it turns out that he becomes a star and the WhiteSox are the latest casualty of the lopsided Ryan trades.

[Riverbrian]

Ashbury is exactly right. This is Florimon's chance to prove something. If he doesn't prove something... He's Gone!!!

 

I think the Twins know that Florimon will drop a couple of hits on the grass on occasion but not at a frequency that most anybody can achieve.

 

It comes down to his defense and if he doesn't steady himself on routine plays... He'll be gone because he won't hit enough to tolerate it.

 

I've seen enough myself. I don't care what the UZR says... He's got above average range... It's easy to see when you watch him and he has the ability to make plays that very few players can make and that is why he is getting this chance. If he can simply make the routine play... He will be an elite defensive SS.

 

It'll be a shame if routine plays are is downfall. They will be if he doesn't start moving his feet for throws.

 

Ball is in his court. It's up to Pedro. For the time being I'll vote for Pedro.

 

If he has to be replaced... It won't be a big deal.

[jorgenswest]

Based on what???

Last year, among SS's with at least 350 innings, Florimon was 29th out of 38 in UZR/150. He was 4 spots BELOW Brian Dozier, who was so bad they moved him to a different position.

 

I know it's a fairly small sample size, but so far it's all we have to look at.

 

Again, I ask, where does this myth come from?

He has done nothing to show this "good defense" that he supposedly possesses.

Just having the tools does not make you a good fielder.

 

I should have been clearer. It based on reports from people watching him play. Those reports are what we have to look at. Data in a small sample should not be considered.

 

He was in the Orioles top 30 in 2006, 2009, 2010. The reports describe his range, arm and inconsistency.

 

John Sickels has written about him in his annual books. A link that can be read comes from 2010 about breakouts for that season has both he and Escobar.

 

Possible Breakout Shortstops, Part One - Minor League Ball

 

 

Scout.com has this 2007 report

 

Scout.com: Prospect Countdown: #43 Pedro Florimon

 

Here is a link from the Tenth Inning Stretch

 

The tenth inning stretch: Who is the newest Twins' player Pedro Florimon Jr?

 

In the 2008 Minor League Analyst from Baseball Info Solutions, Derek McKamey writes "Range and arm strength are defensive assets, but needs to cut down errors"

 

Zachary Ball (an Orioles version of Seth Stohs" wrote this following the 2009 season

 

Baltimore Orioles Top Prospect No. 14: Pedro Florimon Jr. | Bleacher Report

 

The reports have been consistent about his defense since 2007. His arm and range are always listed as assets. His inconsistency is consistently listed as a deficiency.

[bird]

Nice backup, jorgenswest. It supports what Riverbrian and others see. Well, except for the mythbuilders in the front office, who are just making stuff up all the time. According to jokin.

[jokin]

Nice backup, jorgenswest. It supports what Riverbrian and others see. Well, except for the mythbuilders in the front office, who are just making stuff up all the time. According to jokin.

 

Jorgenwest's evidence supports what we all see in his areas of deficiency- and what the FO has chosen to either- outright ignore- or expect significant improvement over what his career has been thus far.

 

Can you deny the fact that the Twins made the decision- right or wrong- come hell or high water- on Florimon as THE starting SS for opening day, 2013- back in the late summer of 2012- all based on a rather erratic set of performances in the field and a continued very anemic bat?

[bird]

Again, I didn't express an opinion, jokin. I'll leave that to experts like you.

[jokin]

Again, I didn't express an opinion, jokin. I'll leave that to experts like you.

 

I believe this qualifies as editorializing:

 

Originally Posted by birdwatcher Nice backup, jorgenswest. It supports what Riverbrian and others see. Well, except for the mythbuilders in the front office, who are just making stuff up all the time. According to jokin.

 

 

 

 

Feel free to look up the meaning of editorializing. I'll wait.

[bird]

What a troll. Mr. Brooks and jorgenswest were engaged in an intelligent discussion. They both presented reasonable backup for their positions. You came along, eager to get your digs in and once again added nothing but a steaming pile of nothingness. jorgenswest and Mr. Brooks presented information and humbly drew reasonable conclusions. Riverbrian humbly offered his own observations. I complimented jorgenswest and challenged you about another of your snarky comments.

 

 

What did you add to this thread, jokin, other arrogant incendiary comments?

[Thrylos]

Allegedly Escobar has been working with Brunansky during the ST to shorten his swing and attack more the ball. I got to see him take BP in ST and during a few ST games and he was hitting decent double power line drives in about a quarter of his PAs. I think he still has room for improvement with the stick. I've heard a lot of raves from the mainstream media about his defense as well. Florimon is definitely a better defensive player (as a SS) but his hitting needs lots of work.

[Jim H]

---

Allegedly Escobar has been working with Brunansky during the ST to shorten his swing and attack more the ball. I got to see him take BP in ST and during a few ST games and he was hitting decent double power line drives in about a quarter of his PAs. I think he still has room for improvement with the stick. I've heard a lot of raves from the mainstream media about his defense as well. Florimon is definitely a better defensive player (as a SS) but his hitting needs lots of work.

 

 

 

 

I agree with this. I am bit unsure why so many seem to think Florimon can't become more consistent. 26 isn't too old to improve, especially in areas such as consistency. Ryan was quoted as saying that Escobar's best position was 2B. That probably doesn't mean he can't be a very good SS, just that like Punto before him, his tools fit better at 2B.

 

I think Florimon has all the tools to be an excellent SS. He will have to be, because he will have to improve a lot to be useful offensively.

[jorgenswest]

Escobar's youth gives him a little better chance to become an adequate hitter. His versatility and defensive ability give him a chance to have a Punto or Carroll type career. Coming up with the White Sox when he was primarily a SS, BBA ranked him as the White Sox best defensive middle infield prospect 4 years. The Twins did not play him regularly at SS starting only 10 of 36 games (at SS) after he arrived last year. They saw much more from Florimon at SS.

 

In any case, his defensive ability across several positions should keep him in the majors into the next decade. Not an exciting or franchise changing player, but a useful major leaguer well worth what they lost in 12 Liriano starts.

[Guest USAFChief]

Florimon's tools would be interesting if he were 5 years younger. Now he's just the most recent version of Alexi Rivas.

Unfortunately, Escobar is just the most recent version of Luis Casilla. Now what?

[Otto von Ballpark]

Punto and Carroll were OBP machines in the minors, and that is where their MLB offensive value has been too. I hate to be a Debbie downer, but Florimon and Escobar have not offered anything offensively in extensive minor league careers. They pretty much have to be elite defensively or they will be below average in the majors.

[Mr. Brooks]

I never claimed Florimon doesn't have the tools to be a good defender.

But tools don't mean jack if you don't use them.

Stop telling me why he CAN be good, or why he SHOULD be good, and tell me what data shows that he IS good, defensively, as the Twins org. and many media members claim.

Again, there is a HUGE difference between having the tools, and actually being good.

Because regardless of how full Pedro's toolbox is, through the sample size we have so far, he has been a downright terrible defender.

[jorgenswest]

Punto and Carroll were OBP machines in the minors, and that is where their MLB offensive value has been too. I hate to be a Debbie downer, but Florimon and Escobar have not offered anything offensively in extensive minor league careers. They pretty much have to be elite defensively or they will be below average in the majors.

 

Punto age 23 and entering age 24 as Escobar is this year.

 

AAA 229/327/298

 

Carroll age 23

 

A+. 243/319/295

 

By 23, Escobar was in the majors. His 22 year old full season in AAA was 266/303/354.

 

Punto and Carroll had the glove to give them time to improve their bat. I don't see anything in their record through age 23 indicating that they had a better chance to have a useful big league career than Escobar. If anything, Escobar playing at higher levels at younger ages should give him an edge.