Take Landis Name off the MVP Award

[Squirrel]

So the link you added, explained Veeck's story, but also had this tidbt - "Subsequently, the article was strongly challenged by historian Jules Tygiel, who refuted it point-by-point in an article in the 2006 issue of SABR's"

 

I think my definition of pretty well accepted might differ from yours. Again not saying he wasn't a racist, but people seem to be looking real hard to prove he was and overlooking he saved baseball.

So, you think his name should remain on the MVP award?

[Trov]

 

As I said in my first post, remove his name, don't care, didn't know it was there.

 

Honest question, is he a racist because baseball wasn't integrated? I can't find anything online that says he created rules against it or wouldn't let owners do it? I have seen people say he wouldn't let owners sign black players, but I also seen a quote of his "That is the business of the manager and the club owners. The business of the Commissioner is to interpret the rules and enforce them"

 

Not defending him at all, but doing limited research I am not finding a smoking gun?

Although no overt statements that say, "I will not let a black player play," or something like that, it was stated for very long time that he had great influence over the owners and would behind the scenes help keep the owners to the unwritten rule of no blacks.  There was never a rule on the books, it was the understanding by all owners that was the rule, and Landis would keep the owners in line with that rule.  There are many stories that state Landis was behind much of the color barrier, but being a smart judge he knew not to come out and say it.  There is a story of him blocking purchase of a team that had intentions to hire many black players.  There is not coincidence that shortly after his death a black player was signed and then made the majors.  

 

So no smoking gun, he was too smart for that.  He knew how to keep the oppression hidden from the public.   

[Trov]

 

Has anyone who has won the award expressed any "problems" with the named award when they received it? I agree that it should be an award that all who receive it should be proud. Barry Larkin won it 25 years ago. Did he have a problem then? I'm not trying to be adversarial here; everybody has had some really good comments. It seems to me it should be up to the players to ask the BBWAA to change it, if anybody. Meanwhile, back to baseball. Go Twins!!

I do not know how many, if any, players spoke out at the time they won it.  I bet if Barry Larkin spoke out 25 years ago about it he would not have received the same level of support he is now.  Players to speak out when they are playing, in what they believe may be an oppressive league could have resulted in loss of job and black balling by owners.  Maybe some did speak out, but fell on deaf ears or in the lack of social media days when you are at the mercy of the media to spread the word, things were different.  I will agree that since it is the baseball writers that named the award and give it out, they should be ones that change it, still does not change the fact that is should be changed. 

[Tomj14]

 

So, you think his name should remain on the MVP award?

about 10 posts up I typed

As I said in my first post, remove his name, don't care, didn't know it was there.

 

I mean honoring a guy that saved baseball (which they obviously didn't do a good job of since very few people know he is even on the trophy) from the black sox scandal  and gambling or not honoring a guy because 100 years ago baseball was not integrated?

The players that were able to win a MVP award and now are offended by the guy on the trophy, should also be educated that without this man there might not be MLB around for them to play.

 

I think the writers need to do some research (since it is their award) present their findings and suggestions to the players union and figure this out.

 

At the end of the day if removing him, makes feel good and better about themselves than that is what should be done.

[nicksaviking]

 

about 10 posts up I typed

As I said in my first post, remove his name, don't care, didn't know it was there.

 

I mean honoring a guy that saved baseball 

 

He didn't save baseball, he just saved the MLB. Or rather, he saved the MLB owners from having to pay players much money. 

 

He was a judge before he was a commissioner. He had no problem calling Standard Oil a monopoly and busting up the company but only a couple of years later a new baseball league (The Federal League) was trying to compete with the AL and NL, and sued on the basis that the Reserve Clause was illegal. Of course the AL and NL wanted to claim the rights to the players for eternity even though the Federal League was offering the star players more money. Landis basically told The Federal League to screw off, and don't mess with my favorite sport. He was particularly upset that the Federal League team in Chicago, the Whales, was encroaching on the Cubs and White Sox territory. 

 

So not only did he prohibit integration, but he also set the precedent that players would never have control of their destiny for the next SIXTY years. Yeah, this was the guy who ensured there would be no free agency until 1975.

[nicksaviking]

 

WOW, Very disappointed in you Nick, you took what I said, quoted half of it as some sort of statement I made, sad.

 

I was only disputing your assertion that he somehow saved baseball which appeared to be the crux of your argument as to why his name shouldn't be removed from the trophy.

[Cap'n Piranha]

 

I found an interesting quote:

 

 

Would you accept a man's successor as his "contemporary"? The author of the above quote was baseball commissioner Happy Chandler, as reported in "Bums: An Oral History of the Brooklyn Dodgers" by Peter Golenbock.
 

 

I would agree that Harry Chandler is Landis' contemporary, but being as Harry Chandler is only one person, he is not Landis' contemporaries.  I imagine that no matter how heinous a person's worldview is, there is at least one other person in agreement; therefore, one person believing a certain ethos is not an accurate representation of zeitgeist.

 

Chandler's admirable views on integration are less an indictment of Landis than an approbation of Chandler.

 

Now, if contemporary polling exists that demonstrates a majority of Americans in the 1920's to 1940's shared Chandler's views, that would change my thinking.  Without any knowledge, and having done no investigation, I am doubtful that a majority of first-half-of-the-20th-century Americans held current-ish views on race, given that this time period predates the Civil Rights Movement.  If so many people held favorable views on racial equality, why was a years-long effort needed to enshrine those views in law?

[Tomj14]

 

I was only disputing your assertion that he somehow saved baseball which appeared to be the crux of your argument as to why his name shouldn't be removed from the trophy.

So you are disputing he was brought in as commissioner to save baseball (MLB) from the Black Sox Scandal and rampant gambling? I didn't know that was up for debate, it seems every site that talks about him says that even ESPN in their article about removing him.

 

Wasn't he the first person to suspend a professional athlete for racism?

 

I have said in at least three posts I am fine with removing him from the MVP award, what I was pointing out the he did some good and probably some bad, and others need to decide which is most important.

If he didn't restore trust in MLB, there might not be MLB now, which means no MN Twins and no Twins Daily website to discuss MLB baseball. Now one could argue that letting MLB crash and burn might have turned out a better product, but that would be pure speculation.

 

[Squirrel]

I still want to know who here knew the MVP award was named for Landis prior to this discussion?

[Tomj14]

 

I still want to know who here knew the MVP award was named for Landis prior to this discussion?

I have read though this whole thread, and I don't see one person saying he should be on the trophy. There are some on here pointing out history, culture and things he did, but not justify why he should be on the trophy or that he was even an OK person. There are others trying to prove they are be more righteous then the rest because of their wokeness.

And because nobody is arguing he should stay it turned into a conversation about the first Commissioner of baseball and the culture around that time which I believe is a good thing, isn't learning about the good and bad history of the sport/league we talk about on this site help beneficial to understanding the game today?

 

[TFRazor]

Baseball writers voted his name on the award. If they want to vote him off, that is their prerogative. I really don't care one way or another.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

I still want to know who here knew the MVP award was named for Landis prior to this discussion?

I did not know, or, just as likely, I had run across it somewhere but forgotten.

[Squirrel]

 

I have read though this whole thread, and I don't see one person saying he should be on the trophy. There are some on here pointing out history, culture and things he did, but not justify why he should be on the trophy or that he was even an OK person. There are others trying to prove they are be more righteous then the rest because of their wokeness.

And because nobody is arguing he should stay it turned into a conversation about the first Commissioner of baseball and the culture around that time which I believe is a good thing, isn't learning about the good and bad history of the sport/league we talk about on this site help beneficial to understanding the game today?

 

That wasn't my question, nor was it me stating any opinion. I wanted to know who knew the award was named for him BEFORE reading this thread. That's my question.

[Brock Beauchamp]

That wasn't my question, nor was it me stating any opinion. I wanted to know who knew the award was named for him BEFORE reading this thread. That's my question.

I was vaguely aware of it; one of those things I’d see every couple of years as a player hoisted the trophy and then I’d forget about it again.

[Brock Beauchamp]

There are others trying to prove they are be more righteous then the rest because of their wokeness.

Stop projecting intent upon and disparaging other posters because they disagree with you or, maybe more accurately, do not 100% agree with you.

[Squirrel]

Moderator note: The off-topic tangents have been removed or edited. It's easy to reach for these tangents, and understand how they are related, but keep this focused on Landis and the MVP award ... or if there are other awards in baseball that might also be pertinent to this discussion ... so we don't end up in something completely not baseball related.

[Squirrel]

 

I was vaguely aware of it; one of those things I’d see every couple of years as a player hoisted the trophy and then I’d forget about it again.

 

I didn't know about it before starting in this thread. And didn't really know much about Landis, either. So, I'm learning. And from what I've learned about his history from others and from what I've read on my own, and his history in baseball, I don't think naming the MVP award after him is appropriate. His history in the sport is there, ensconced, for all the read and draw their own conclusions. To me it doesn't matter that he came from a different time period, his actions then are not appropriate for today. All imo, of course. I'm not sure I would go so far as to petition to rename the MVP award, I mean, I didn't even know about it before. And maybe because I didn't know about before, and many others likely didn't either, is more reason to just drop the name from the award because, eh, so what. However, put the question in a different way ... if there was no name attached to the MVP award, and they wanted to call it something, what would you suggest? Would you name it for Landis? Would you not name it at all? Is there another or a thing to name it for that might be better?

[TFRazor]

I didn't know about it before starting in this thread. And didn't really know much about Landis, either. So, I'm learning. And from what I've learned about his history from others and from what I've read on my own, and his history in baseball, I don't think naming the MVP award after him is appropriate. His history in the sport is there, ensconced, for all the read and draw their own conclusions. To me it doesn't matter that he came from a different time period, his actions then are not appropriate for today. All imo, of course. I'm not sure I would go so far as to petition to rename the MVP award, I mean, I didn't even know about it before. And maybe because I didn't know about before, and many others likely didn't either, is more reason to just drop the name from the award because, eh, so what. However, put the question in a different way ... if there was no name attached to the MVP award, and they wanted to call it something, what would you suggest? Would you name it for Landis? Would you not name it at all? Is there another or a thing to name it for that might be better?

How about we just call it the Most Valuable Player award? That’ll save us the time and hassle 30 years down the road when it turns out the person we named it after is no longer socially acceptable.

[Squirrel]

 

How about we just call it the Most Valuable Player award? That’ll save us the time and hassle 30 years down the road when it turns out the person we named it after is no longer socially acceptable.

 

Pretty much. I guess what I was getting at was since no one really knew the name attachment, just drop that and the award is what most thought it was anyway.

[Craig Arko]

 

I still want to know who here knew the MVP award was named for Landis prior to this discussion?

I neither knew nor much cared, I guess. I did know who Landis was prior to this site’s existence.

[nicksaviking]

 

How about we just call it the Most Valuable Player award? That’ll save us the time and hassle 30 years down the road when it turns out the person we named it after is no longer socially acceptable.

 

Geez, that's a mouthful. How will I ever remember what that award is even for? 

[strumdatjaguar]

How about renaming it The Bobby Bonilla Award?  Certainly, he given the most value in return for his actual value as a player.  That makes him the ultimate Most Valuable Player. 

 

[Vanimal46]

I didn't know about it before starting in this thread. And didn't really know much about Landis, either. So, I'm learning. And from what I've learned about his history from others and from what I've read on my own, and his history in baseball, I don't think naming the MVP award after him is appropriate. His history in the sport is there, ensconced, for all the read and draw their own conclusions. To me it doesn't matter that he came from a different time period, his actions then are not appropriate for today. All imo, of course. I'm not sure I would go so far as to petition to rename the MVP award, I mean, I didn't even know about it before. And maybe because I didn't know about before, and many others likely didn't either, is more reason to just drop the name from the award because, eh, so what. However, put the question in a different way ... if there was no name attached to the MVP award, and they wanted to call it something, what would you suggest? Would you name it for Landis? Would you not name it at all? Is there another or a thing to name it for that might be better?

I didn’t know the MVP had a name tied to it, nor did I know who Landis was prior to this thread.

 

It doesn’t matter to me if a name is tied to an award or not... But, if they changed the name, there’s a few unanimous or near unanimous 1st ballot HOF players they could choose from. Derek Jeter, Ken Griffey Jr... Mariano Rivera Reliever of the year award?

[TFRazor]

Geez, that's a mouthful. How will I ever remember what that award is even for?

 

While I’m sure it’ll be difficult at the start I’d imagine we’d all get used to it eventually

[wavedog]

I was not aware the MVP awards were named after Landis - a bit confusing because there is an AL MVP and NL MVP so two awards and it looks like they are both named after him.   My first thought is that they should be named after a great predominantly AL player and a great predominantly NL player respectively.  That would seem to provide a good historical recognition fit and make it more identifiable to a league. I know several of the HOF players already have other awards named for them.  I would have to see who was available or maybe move the award names around - maybe  Babe Ruth and Jackie Robinson?  Without factoring in on the tipping point of Landis achievements versus his racism, naming it after Landis right after he left office might have made sense in the 1940's but doesn't seem to make as much sense now.  I would be in favor of the Baseball writers reviewing this and making a recommendation.     

[Craig Arko]

Eventually I expect it will look like a fish and be called The Trout MVP Award.

[TFRazor]

Eventually I expect it will look like a fish and be called The Trout MVP Award.

Will it sing?

[Brock Beauchamp]

I didn't know about it before starting in this thread. And didn't really know much about Landis, either. So, I'm learning. And from what I've learned about his history from others and from what I've read on my own, and his history in baseball, I don't think naming the MVP award after him is appropriate. His history in the sport is there, ensconced, for all the read and draw their own conclusions. To me it doesn't matter that he came from a different time period, his actions then are not appropriate for today. All imo, of course. I'm not sure I would go so far as to petition to rename the MVP award, I mean, I didn't even know about it before. And maybe because I didn't know about before, and many others likely didn't either, is more reason to just drop the name from the award because, eh, so what. However, put the question in a different way ... if there was no name attached to the MVP award, and they wanted to call it something, what would you suggest? Would you name it for Landis? Would you not name it at all? Is there another or a thing to name it for that might be better?

Branch Rickey? He’s not infallible but also potentially the most influential person in all of baseball history. He created the modern farm system and signed Robinson.

 

As to Landis, he, like Cobb, is still in Cooperstown. I have not heard a single person call for their removal from the Hall of Fame so the “erasing history” argument is utter garbage. Both of them have their place in baseball history acknowledged, there is no need to celebrate either.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Another player who deserves recognition with an award is Curt Floyd. He literally sacrificed his career to end the reserve clause, and it was a damned good career. 42 WAR through his age 31 season, averaging 4.4 WAR his final three seasons before the contract dispute.

[ashbury]

Another player who deserves recognition with an award is Curt Floyd. He literally sacrificed his career to end the reserve clause, and it was a damned good career. 42 WAR through his age 31 season, averaging 4.4 WAR his final three seasons before the contract dispute.

Sign of the times, even with typos, I guess.