Go get Verlander

[Vanimal46]

I love this thread....

 

The thought that this team should give up top prospects for Machado is absolutely absurd.

 

We are all but out of the Wild Card race at 12.5 games back and Cleveland is figuring their stuff out and looking really nice.

 

You would give up a good core of prospects for 2 months of Machado and believe that will rocket us up the standings? Odds are against you at this point.

 

Face it, we had a nice year last year that may have been boosted by some luck. We aren't that far along from out worst place finish and may have gotten ahead of ourselves this year in believing this team could turn it all around in one+ year(s).

 

Trust the process here. I still believe we are a year or so away from having these discussions and all this trade does is give away the future for 2 months.

 

3% chance he signs here.

Where did I say acquiring Machado will help the Twins rocket up the standings? You're reading into things that are not there.

 

I'm saying the Twins have the prospects to make a trade such as this. And bringing Machado into the organization before anyone else has a chance to talk to him could increase those odds of him signing long term from 3% that you said.

 

You know what's going to happen instead? 20+ teams are going to bombard him and his agent to set up a meeting, and the Twins won't be on his radar.

 

Let's get back to our previously scheduled program where we discuss Matt Belisle, how terrible the offense is, and firing Molitor.

[alarp33]

 

Where did I say acquiring Machado will help the Twins rocket up the standings? You're reading into things that are not there.

I'm saying the Twins have the prospects to make a trade such as this. And bringing Machado into the organization before anyone else has a chance to talk to him could increase those odds of him signing long term from 3% that you said.

You know what's going to happen instead? 20+ teams are going to bombard him and his agent to set up a meeting, and the Twins won't be on his radar.

Let's get back to our previously scheduled program where we discuss Matt Belisle, how terrible the offense is, and firing Molitor.

 

I don't understand at all why you keep referencing 20+ teams bombarding his agent this off-season. That is going to happen whether the Twins trade for him or not! The team who offers his agent the most money will sign him. Do you think his agent just won't take the Twins call if they want to offer him $300 million because he is getting too many other calls? Do you think if he is traded for by the Twins and they offer him $200 million he won't take the Dodgers, Cubs, Yankees, etc. calls? This theory you are floating is completely nonsensical and not based in reality. 

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

The narrative was he didn’t want to come here, not that it would cost us too much.

For some posters, it was. But that flies in the face of Falvey and Levine's statements that this is now a "destination" team for free agents. So, there's that.

[Tomj14]

 

This isn't meant to complain... I'm just talking about a strategy with Machado to increase the odds of him signing here from 3% as the poster before me said to a higher number.

Not sure if this is allowed,

but offer, Lewis, Gordon, Gonzo and maybe Wade, and a 8 year 270 or something similar contract.

Tell Balt this trade only works if Manny accepts contract.

 

[Mike Sixel]

I am willing to give up legit prospects, but not for rentals. So I'm not trading for machado.

[alarp33]

 

Not sure if this is allowed,

but offer, Lewis, Gordon, Gonzo and maybe Wade, and a 8 year 270 or something similar contract.

Tell Balt this trade only works if Manny accepts contract.

 

You can offer him 8/270 in November and keep Lewis and Gordon. Why would you give them up in July? Machado is NOT going to accept an extension 2 months before becoming a free agent. We need to come back into reality here. 

[MangLitch]

 

Where did I say acquiring Machado will help the Twins rocket up the standings? You're reading into things that are not there.

I'm saying the Twins have the prospects to make a trade such as this. And bringing Machado into the organization before anyone else has a chance to talk to him could increase those odds of him signing long term from 3% that you said.

You know what's going to happen instead? 20+ teams are going to bombard him and his agent to set up a meeting, and the Twins won't be on his radar.

Let's get back to our previously scheduled program where we discuss Matt Belisle, how terrible the offense is, and firing Molitor.

 

The only real reason to trade for Machado would be in hopes that he helps us rocket up the standings, otherwise why give up the prospects?

 

If your reasoning is because it gives us a better shot at signing.... maybe from 3% to 6%... maybe

 

We saw it with the Darvish talks, and maybe its a bit different, but even with comparable money and whatnot we still have a hard time. These bigger markets have all sorts of pluses. 

 

Not saying we shouldn't offer him, but your premise was to trade for him. If you trade, you do it either to win now (wont make a big enough difference) or try to woo him (see previous). To me, the odds are not worth giving up a real package for. Put your eggs in the FA basket and if you flame out, you lose nothing. 

 

If you flame out on 1 and 2 above, you lose prospects you could use or trade for better options.... maybe not as flashy though.

[MangLitch]

 

You can offer him 8/270 in November and keep Lewis and Gordon. Why would you give them up in July? Machado is NOT going to accept an extension 2 months before becoming a free agent. We need to come back into reality here. 

 

Even more perplexing, why would you sign that if you are Machado? You are two months away from a bidding war where you know there are big teams with big pockets that badly want you. 

 

No way he signs anything under 300 mil because that is what he will likely get come October/November

[Tomj14]

 

You can offer him 8/270 in November and keep Lewis and Gordon. Why would you give them up in July? Machado is NOT going to accept an extension 2 months before becoming a free agent. We need to come back into reality here. 

Fine, make it 10 for 500, you do it now because you have him the rest of the year and he doesn't hit the market where I am pretty sure the twins are going to get outbid, but lets be honest the Twins will not make an offer now or then.

Any finally you do it because if you really want something you do what you need to do to get it.

Or you can always claim that you really want to win, but only after the next set up prospects get the Twins there.

 

I agree with Mike above I am willing to trade prospects but not for rentals, the sad part is IMO that will really only have 3 top end prospects (Lewis, Kirilloff, Graterol) to get somebody like Verlander last year.

[yarnivek1972]

Because the rental rate is absurd? We will have the ability to buy anything we want this offseason. If we don’t....that’s the time to light torches. This criticism has about as much validity as a thread about why Batman isn’t playing right field.

Difference being free agents go where they want. If a guy is traded, he goes where he’s told.

[Mike Sixel]

Can someone explain to me how, in the Sano thread, we are told lots of top prospects don't work and it isn't a twins' problem, and we can't trade top prospects in this thread because we will lose out on all the upside?

[jimmer]

Difference being free agents go where they want. If a guy is traded, he goes where he’s told.

unless they have veto power like Verlander did.

[Dozier's Glorious Hair]

 

Can someone explain to me how, in the Sano thread, we are told lots of top prospects don't work and it isn't a twins' problem, and we can't trade top prospects in this thread because we will lose out on all the upside?

 

Possessing a large quantity of top prospects is important specifically because they can be so hit-or-miss. It's all about minimizing risk. Buxton and Sano not (yet) panning out makes NOT trading Eddie Rosario back in his prospect days all the more essential. 

[Mike Sixel]

Possessing a large quantity of top prospects is important specifically because they can be so hit-or-miss. It's all about minimizing risk. Buxton and Sano not (yet) panning out makes NOT trading Eddie Rosario back in his prospect days all the more essential.

So never trade good prospects?

[Dozier's Glorious Hair]

 

So never trade good prospects?

 

It depends on:

 

A - How close you are to real contention

 

and

 

B - What you are getting in return

 

and

 

C - How loaded you are, prospect-wise, at that particular position

 

But, yes, I'm definitely one to err on the side of holding on to your prospects.

[S.]

If our FO won't sign top tier free agents, and we should be hesitant to trade any good prospects, and we struggle to develop our own prospects, how do we compete?

[yarnivek1972]

It depends on:

 

A - How close you are to real contention

 

and

 

B - What you are getting in return

 

and

 

C - How loaded you are, prospect-wise, at that particular position

 

But, yes, I'm definitely one to err on the side of holding on to your prospects.

That would be fine if this regime showed interest in letting them play. If you aren’t going to let them play, might as well trade them.

[Monkeypaws]

When I suggested "go get Machado," it was always as a free agent. It would be asinine for this Twins team to mortgage the farm for a rental, with what purpose: .500 record? Never gonna make it to the wild-card, and catching Cleveland is pretty long odds and getting longer.

[jorgenswest]

An offer of Romero, Gordon and Navaretto may have matched the deal the Astros offered. Franklin Perez at the time was the best of the 6 though. You also need to get Verlander to OK the trade to the Twins. I don’t think it was ever a realistic proposition. The Astros had the better prospect to offer and the better opportunity for a Verlander to get to the World Series.

 

With his step forward this year Lewis gives the Twins an elite prospect they didn’t have last year. He is the kind of player that can get a return of Archer or Realmuto. I hope they use this resource well.

[Mike Sixel]

If our FO won't sign top tier free agents, and we should be hesitant to trade any good prospects, and we struggle to develop our own prospects, how do we compete?

We don't.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

 

An offer of Romero, Gordon and Navaretto may have matched the deal the Astros offered. Franklin Perez at the time was the best of the 6 though. You also need to get Verlander to OK the trade to the Twins. I don’t think it was ever a realistic proposition. The Astros had the better prospect to offer and the better opportunity for a Verlander to get to the World Series.

With his step forward this year Lewis gives the Twins an elite prospect they didn’t have last year. He is the kind of player that can get a return of Archer or Realmuto. I hope they use this resource well.

Yes, and in this case, even though catcher is a concern, I really want to keep Lewis. 

[alarp33]

 

If our FO won't sign top tier free agents, and we should be hesitant to trade any good prospects, and we struggle to develop our own prospects, how do we compete?

 

Let me get this straight, we've decided this FO won't sign top Free Agents because they didn't sign who, Yu Darvish? Or their 1st offseason, which was following a 59 win season? 

 

And we're all hesitant to trade any good prospects because people are laughing at the notion of a team thats 13 games out of the 2nd wild card trading for a 3 month rental?

[Mike Sixel]

Let me get this straight, we've decided this FO won't sign top Free Agents because they didn't sign who, Yu Darvish? Or their 1st offseason, which was following a 59 win season?

 

And we're all hesitant to trade any good prospects because people are laughing at the notion of a team thats 13 games out of the 2nd wild card trading for a 3 month rental?

No, that's a reaction to the statements here, that we shouldn't trade for Realmuto, or anything that costs real prospects.

 

This front office has neither traded legit prospects, not signed an expensive free agent. Neither did the previous one. The one that did was fired..... coincidence?

[yarnivek1972]

We don't.

Which is kinda what the W/L record lately indicates. Two seasons of more than 70 wins since 2010.

[old nurse]

 

It's not.  And there's no proof of a high end free agent ever taking less money cuz he loved playing for a losing team down the stretch.  JD Martinez loved the AZ culture

 

https://www.mlb.com/dbacks/news/jd-martinez-cherishes-time-with-d-backs/c-258115238

Martinez is proof that he wouldn't sign for less for a team that wins.  Arizona made it to the division series last year and is leading their division  at this point.

[S.]

 

Let me get this straight, we've decided this FO won't sign top Free Agents because they didn't sign who, Yu Darvish? Or their 1st offseason, which was following a 59 win season? 

 

And we're all hesitant to trade any good prospects because people are laughing at the notion of a team thats 13 games out of the 2nd wild card trading for a 3 month rental?

I'm not arguing we should be buyers this year. My comment wasn't specific to this season. Hell, this thread is originally from last season. I'm saying this FO won't sign top free agents because the Twins have not signed any top free agents in recent years. If they go out there this offseason and sign top tier free agents, then I'll be happily proven wrong. As it stands, the Twins haven't signed any top tier free agents in a long long time. 

[TheLeviathan]

 

No, that's a reaction to the statements here, that we shouldn't trade for Realmuto, or anything that costs real prospects.

This front office has neither traded legit prospects, not signed an expensive free agent. Neither did the previous one. The one that did was fired..... coincidence?

 

I think, even with this season fading away, that Realmuto would still make an excellent target.

 

But sometimes we have to look at each case more individually.  Verlander wasn't waiving his deal to come here and Detroit would've never brought it to him.  That's just a fact, inconvenient as it may be for some in this thread.

 

But there are other examples in the recent past - Tulowitski for example.  Go back and read that thread.  I was fairly accurate in my hesitation, but even I was stupid enough to suggest dealing Berrios for him.  Thank goodness we avoided that dagger.

 

Not every win-now move is a good one.  Not every hold-your-cards-for-later is a good one either.  What defines a successful FO is hitting enough to make up for the misses.  But there are some here that are too gung-ho one way or the other and they'd generally make pretty terrible FO personnel.

[alarp33]

 

No, that's a reaction to the statements here, that we shouldn't trade for Realmuto, or anything that costs real prospects.

This front office has neither traded legit prospects, not signed an expensive free agent. Neither did the previous one. The one that did was fired..... coincidence?

 

I don't think Realmuto was really discussed on this thread.  Machado was.  Isn't 7 games under .500 and 13 games out of a WC kind of a weird time to be discussing trading prospects?

 

I don't understand your 2nd paragraph.  Should they just trade legit prospects just to say they did it, or only if it make baseball sense?  Should they pay $130 million to a Darvish just to show you they will sign an expensive free agent? Or maybe they should wait until their is an expensive FA worth signing?  

[alarp33]

 

I'm not arguing we should be buyers this year. My comment wasn't specific to this season. Hell, this thread is originally from last season. I'm saying this FO won't sign top free agents because the Twins have not signed any top free agents in recent years. If they go out there this offseason and sign top tier free agents, then I'll be happily proven wrong. As it stands, the Twins haven't signed any top tier free agents in a long long time. 

 

This front office has been in charge for 2 offseasons. 1 of which they were hired in Nov after the team had won 59 games. Would've been an odd time to make a huge signing, no?

 

Last off season the top 3 free agents were Yu Darvish, JD Martinez, Eric Hosmer. Which should they have signed to make you happy?  JD Martinez is having a great season but never made sense here (though I'd love a real RH bat).

 

As for trades last season, the Twins were 50-53 on July 31st and showing no signs of life. Would've been an odd time to trade a bunch of prospects.  And yes, Verlander was traded in August and had a no trade clause he never would have waived to come battle for a WC 

 

Why are you lumping this FO in with past ones?

[S.]

 

Isn't 7 games under .500 and 13 games out of a WC kind of a weird time to be discussing trading prospects?

Neither Mike nor I are saying that we should be trading the farm right now and be buyers for this season, it was meant to be a general statement on the front office and on the idea that you don't want to trade high end prospects ever. If you want to be a successful MLB team you gotta do some combo of developing your own prospects, trading your prospects for good players, or signing top tier free agents. The Twins haven't been doing any of those well in recent years, and unsurprisingly the result has not been good.