Berrios and the Front Office

[Joe A. Preusser]

Ok, just checked the game score. I can stop using the qualifier IF he throws another bad game.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

To top it off...as mentioned above, Kyle Gibson's 2017 ERA is remarkably similar to Berrios' 2016.

I don't want to see more of Gibson in the rotation, that's for sure. I'm done with that guy.

 

I'm hoping the team does something with Mejia. I still don't really understand why he was demoted and not recalled the moment the Twins needed a fifth starter again. Three starts is not enough to evaluate a rookie, IMO.

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

Stating that the criticism is "without question unreasonable" is pretty much saying we can't question the FO on this topic. Who gets to choose what we can criticize them on?

 

He's actually had 35 starts in AAA, not one month.

 

and he had 14 disastrous major league starts..... since then he's had how many AAA starts?

[Joe A. Preusser]

i would hope no one made decisions based on spring training results as a primary point of information, other than velocity...

Not results; attitude, confidence, mechanics, health, etc. He looked and acted like a new man this spring. And he had decent results.

[DaveW]

4 runs, two innings against a terrible Oakland team.

Hell, let's give him 10 more starts!

[old nurse]

As bad as Kyle Gibson's numbers are this year, that is about where Berrios's numbers were last year.  Is what he is throwing this year any different than last year? I do not know, nor do any of the stat line scouts know. The danger in removing all doubt is also the danger of removing all value if the results at the major league level are the same as last year's.

[drjim]

 

4 runs, two innings against a terrible Oakland team.

Hell, let's give him 10 more starts!

 

He needed a better defense behind him. Probably would have held them scoreless.

[Twinsbar107]

 

Falvey had an entire off-season to address the pitching. Instead he did nothing.
They did take one SP with upside (Duffey) and put him in the pen, which was perplexing to say the least.

Color me unimpressed with Falvey's pitching strategy.

One off season, isn't near enough time. Hell, it took the Theo 5 years to make the Cubs contenders and he is widely considered the best GM in baseball.

[DaveW]

 

He needed a better defense behind him. Probably would have held them scoreless.

lol yeah, that's the problem...

[old nurse]

 

I certainly agree the 14-11 start should make a difference, I was responding to your point about the quality of competition.

 

And if the team believes he's going to post numbers that terrible, that's an entirely different discussion...one not made by anyone here, including you.  The discussion has been about "tweaking" this or that, or stretching him out, or whatever...not about him not being good enough to pitch in the big leagues.

 

To top it off...as mentioned above, Kyle Gibson's 2017 ERA is remarkably similar to Berrios' 2016.

No front office person or manager is going to make any sort of statement publicly that a prospect may not have what it takes to be successful in the majors unless they are giving up on the prospect.

[nicksaviking]

Just playing Devil's Advocate here, but with Berrios and Buxton the Twins have had trouble getting the most out of their humble and quiet top prospects.

 

What if the front office thinks Berrios IS ready but is intentionally keeping him down to put a chip on his shoulder? What if they don't want "Aw shucks, just happy to be here" Berrios, they wan't "Screw you, you think I can't do this? I'll show you what I can do" Berrios?

[USAFChief]

 

Just playing Devil's Advocate here, but with Berrios and Buxton the Twins have had trouble getting the most out of their humble and quiet top prospects.

 

What if the front office thinks Berrios IS ready but is intentionally keeping him down to put a chip on his shoulder? What if they don't want "Aw shucks, just happy to be here" Berrios, they wan't "Screw you, you think I can't do this? I'll show you what I can do" Berrios?

My totally unfounded, wild speculation is "they asked him not to pitch in the WBC but he did it anyway, and they're not happy."

[Joe A. Preusser]

Both of those scenarios would embody horrible management strategy. I trust Falvine do not employ horrible management strategy.

[Taildragger8791]

 

My totally unfounded, wild speculation is "they asked him not to pitch in the WBC but he did it anyway, and they're not happy."

 

I highly doubt they'd be that petty or unprofessional. I do believe that they didn't want him to go to the WBC, but that was because they wanted more time to work with him during a critical phase of his development. That was a big opportunity to utilize a controlled learning environment where the games don't count and everyone can watch him.

 

Maybe he'd have been ready to come up by now if that were the case. Instead, he went off to rot on a bench for weeks, away from the coaches that know him and have his best interests in mind. That resulted in a setback that he's having to work through now.

[KirbyDome89]

1. Yes I think he is ready. As none of us are pitching coaches and very likely aren't watching him throw every game has done anything this season to show he isn't capable of pitching at the big league level this season?

 

2. The guys at the top are different but a lot of the old regime remains in place. I'm not bitching about gutting the organization in the first few months but the amount of change wasn't exactly striking. Now, add to that the fact that a lot of moves made during the offseason and so far this season have been eerily similar to those made in the past six seasons it shouldn't be surprising that posters are questioning what is going on. In the same way it would be foolish to criticize a new FO for simply going about business in a different way, I see no reason to give them the benefit of the doubt  in every situation just because a different group is at the top. If you're looking at the moves from an objective perspective I would say they have been underwhelming thus far.

 

3. I didn't see any posts accusing the FO of lying about Berrios needing to stretch out. They gave a reason for not placing him in the rotation to start the year. I happen to think it was a piss poor reason. If they wanted him to start the season with the Twins they easily could have made that happen. I don't think he was ever a candidate to start in the rotation. I believe they did hold his WBC stint against him. They weren't wrong, he would have needed to stretch out a bit, but I think that rationale was exaggerated.

 

4. At worst I think Berrios can duplicate what Gibson is doing right now. They showed a quick hook with Mejia (I disagree with only 3 starts before the hook) but what is stopping them from doing that to Berrios if he is bad again? They obviously aren't concerned with using a small sample to justify sending a guy back down so why not let Berrios pitch? 

 

5. Based on the reasoning the Twins gave for keeping Berrios out of the rotation to start the year it does seem like he was "punished," for participating in the WBC. Personally I don't think that was the driving factor for keeping him out, but that is what the team said and if you believe that is the reason he didn't crack the rotation then yes I think it can be viewed as a punishment of sorts. 

 

6.The argument for Berrios struggles affecting the team more than Buxton's is valid. That said, I would rather watch Berrios than either Tepesch or Gibson. It might not be the most sound reasoning but I would at least be excited about watching starts coming from the 4th or 5th spot. 

 

7. Gibson. Yuck. 

 

[DaveW]

Gibson final line: 4 IP 8 H 3 BB 3ER

 

Oh, against a terrible terrible terrible offense.

 

We going to make excuses that it was the "defenses" fault? (Same defense that Santana has had to get him a 0.66 era fwiw)

 

Or is it time to admit that Gibby needs to be out of the rotation asap?

[Vanimal46]

 

Gibson final line: 4 IP 8 H 3 BB 3ER

Oh, against a terrible terrible terrible offense.

We going to make excuses that it was the "defenses" fault? (Same defense that Santana has had to get him a 0.66 era fwiw)

Or is it time to admit that Gibby needs to be out of the rotation asap?

 

 

It's gaining steam at Fangraphs... 

12:26

Smell the Glover: What to make of Berrios maybe (but probably not) coming up in the near future? He’s obvious not as bad as his major league numbers late last year, but seen anything to suggest he’s made the appropriate change(s)?

 

12:26
Eno Sarris: I’ve seen some mechanical changes. I think it’s possible he unlocks it this year, and in some leagues, he’s the best upside pickup on the wire. And Gibson about to pitch his way out of the rotation.

[KirbyDome89]

 

Bottom line:  

 

The Twins are leading the division.  Unless they fall out of contention, I'd give the FO the benefit of the doubt.

 

 

 

And if the Twins were 10-15 or worse, I'd be like "WTF, just get him up here and see what happens". Kind of like what I wanted to see earlier in the 2016 season.

 

But even with the Twins being 14-11, if Tepesch makes more than three starts, there's a high likelihood I will end up vomiting all over my computer monitor before the end of May.

Honest question for you guys. Why does a couple games difference in the win/loss column change your opinion so dramatically? 

 

Hypothetical here:

If Ervin had lost a couple close games and was 3-2 instead of 5-0 and Pressly had coughed up a third game the Twins would be 11-14. None of that affects Berrios ability to pitch at the major league level.

If you don't think he's ready right now then fine, but why does the Twins April record, despite the lack of production from the 4/5 spots in the rotation, dictate when he comes up? 

[bizaff]

 

Honest question for you guys. Why does a couple games difference in the win/loss column change your opinion so dramatically?

If you believe you're playing well because you're getting laid, or because you're not getting laid, or because you wear women's underwear, then you *are*! And you should know that!

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Honest question for you guys. Why does a couple games difference in the win/loss column change your opinion so dramatically? 

 

Hypothetical here:

If Ervin had lost a couple close games and was 3-2 instead of 5-0 and Pressly had coughed up a third game the Twins would be 11-14. None of that affects Berrios ability to pitch at the major league level.

If you don't think he's ready right now then fine, but why does the Twins April record, despite the lack of production from the 4/5 spots in the rotation, dictate when he comes up? 

Because 10-15 or worse basically puts this team out of contention unless lightning strikes. In that situation, the front office should be more willing to roll the dice in hopes that Berrios comes out firing strikes.

 

And if he doesn't, oh well. It didn't really matter anyway.

 

It's the same reason I wanted to see the team call up Berrios earlier last season, stick Buxton in the lineup permanently, and just lets the kids play every day. If the games don't matter, it's perfectly acceptable to turn your team into development mode.

[bizaff]

I think it's lots of different things weighing against each other.   Some of "if it ain't broke don't fix it", some of he's still got some things to work on, some of roster issues as you start to shuffle people around.

 

I think it's less of "if this happens, that's it, we're going to pull the trigger".

 

I think getting to the "why" of a lot of these things is key.  It's not so much that he's been bad lately, it's WHY has he been bad?  Yes, you can say Gibson is "broken" and that should be good enough, but if they're seeing things where he's a small adjustment away from being effective, it makes sense to give pause.  That's becoming less and less likely with every start.  I'm still guessing they see something with Berrios that needs a little more work.

 

Back to Brock's point, if you think the coaches and management don't have any information you don't, things appear to get clearer.  I think that's awfully arrogant unless you're in the inner circle or have been heavily involved in baseball for many years.

 

[Head 1st into 1st]

Hardest part about being a Twins fan:  David Ortiz and drafting Kyle Gibson three picks before the Angles drafted Mike Trout.  (and yes...Joe Mauer still has another year on that contract #mondaymorningqb)

 

Also pretty much every draft pick of the past decade +.

 

Is it the drafting or the development #chickenortheegg

 

Berrios exploded soon after he was drafted as did Buxton...and then...

[KirbyDome89]

 

Because 10-15 or worse basically puts this team out of contention unless lightning strikes. In that situation, the front office should be more willing to roll the dice in hopes that Berrios comes out firing strikes.

 

And if he doesn't, oh well. It didn't really matter anyway.

 

It's the same reason I wanted to see the team call up Berrios earlier last season, stick Buxton in the lineup permanently, and just lets the kids play every day. If the games don't matter, it's perfectly acceptable to turn your team into development mode.

Well, the logical question to follow is what do they do if they're near .500 at the end of May? What about June? If you think he's a better pitcher than Tepesch, then I don't see how their record the opening month, or any month of the season matters. 

 

Of course I agree with the last paragraph, I was vocal about the same things last season. Admittedly I don't see them contending this season so I'm having a hard time seeing how  a 14-11 suddenly changes the view for the rest of the season, but a couple losses switches it right back. It seems unusual to base extreme position shifts on a handful of games. 

[KirbyDome89]

 

I think it's lots of different things weighing against each other.   Some of "if it ain't broke don't fix it", some of he's still got some things to work on, some of roster issues as you start to shuffle people around.

 

I think it's less of "if this happens, that's it, we're going to pull the trigger".

 

I think getting to the "why" of a lot of these things is key.  It's not so much that he's been bad lately, it's WHY has he been bad?  Yes, you can say Gibson is "broken" and that should be good enough, but if they're seeing things where he's a small adjustment away from being effective, it makes sense to give pause.  That's becoming less and less likely with every start.  I'm still guessing they see something with Berrios that needs a little more work.

 

Back to Brock's point, if you think the coaches and management don't have any information you don't, things appear to get clearer.  I think that's awfully arrogant unless you're in the inner circle or have been heavily involved in baseball for many years.

"Don't fix what isn't broken," would maybe hold weight if 2/5 of the starting rotation wasn't a disaster waiting to happen. 

 

I think Mike said it earlier, but if the argument is that the Twins organization knows more than we do therefore they're always right then there is no point to any of the discussion in the forums. 

[bizaff]

 

"Don't fix what isn't broken," would maybe hold weight if 2/5 of the starting rotation wasn't a disaster waiting to happen. 

 

I think Mike said it earlier, but if the argument is that the Twins organization knows more than we do therefore they're always right then there is no point to any of the discussion in the forums. 

 

I agree with the first part.

 

I don't think the original argument is that they're always right and that's the end of it. I think the original point is that they know more and have information they're not sharing with us.  Given that, making extreme accusations that they're doing the wrong thing doesn't really make sense.  Of course it's worth discussion, that's why we're all here - we can try to figure out what they're thinking.  We can not like it and come up with better plans, but saying they don't know what they're doing is kind of silly.

 

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Well, the logical question to follow is what do they do if they're near .500 at the end of May? What about June? If you think he's a better pitcher than Tepesch, then I don't see how their record the opening month, or any month of the season matters. 

 

Of course I agree with the last paragraph, I was vocal about the same things last season. Admittedly I don't see them contending this season so I'm having a hard time seeing how  a 14-11 suddenly changes the view for the rest of the season, but a couple losses switches it right back. It seems unusual to base extreme position shifts on a handful of games. 

But I'm not talking about extreme positional shifts. I've been vocal about not wanting Tepesch to start, I'm just not convinced Berrios is the guy to fill that spot.

 

I don't understand why Mejia wasn't recalled, to be frank. Even if you don't think Mejia is a longterm piece this season, give him two more starts and use that time to stretch out Duffey and then make a decision.

[KirbyDome89]

 

I agree with the first part.

 

I don't think the original argument is that they're always right and that's the end of it. I think the original point is that they know more and have information they're not sharing with us.  Given that, making extreme accusations that they're doing the wrong thing doesn't really make sense.  Of course it's worth discussion, that's why we're all here - we can try to figure out what they're thinking.  We can not like it and come up with better plans, but saying they don't know what they're doing is kind of silly.

I get where you're coming from. I guess from what I've read about 99.9% of posts that disagree with the FO aren't extreme. I'm not saying I agree with all of them but there almost always is some reasoning provided. I feel like the "you're not part of the FO," argument is used as a crutch, and incorrectly so, when somebody tries to defend FO moves. A person's level of involvement with the organization doesn't directly correlate to how "correct," their opinion is.    

[bizaff]

 

I get where you're coming from. I guess from what I've read about 99.9% of posts that disagree with the FO aren't extreme. I'm not saying I agree with all of them but there almost always is some reasoning provided. I feel like the "you're not part of the FO," argument is used as a crutch, and incorrectly so, when somebody tries to defend FO moves. A person's level of involvement with the organization doesn't directly correlate to how "correct," their opinion is.    

Most aren't, I agree.. it seems like there's a few posters that regularly fan the flames.

 

I get frustrated with all the "cut this guy, cut that guy" talk - a lot of those moves are one way.  If you make a mistake, you often don't get to take it back.  I think teams SHOULD err on letting people play too long.  On the other hand, in some cases it's been way too long

[KirbyDome89]

 

But I'm not talking about extreme positional shifts. I've been vocal about not wanting Tepesch to start, I'm just not convinced Berrios is the guy to fill that spot.

 

I don't understand why Mejia wasn't recalled, to be frank. Even if you don't think Mejia is a longterm piece this season, give him two more starts and use that time to stretch out Duffey and then make a decision.

I wasn't thrilled with Mejia only getting three starts either so no argument about him over Tepesch or stretching Duffey. If he was pitching Saturday instead of Tepesch I wouldn't be nearly as annoyed. I would still rather Jose get the call but Mejia makes more sense than simply waiting until they fall under .500 to make a change. 

[yarnivek1972]

I still have no illusions that this team will contend. Twins record vs current above .500 teams: 5-10.  Twins record vs below .500 teams: 9-2.  

 

The Red Sox come to town this weekend.  The only reason they MIGHT not get swept is because Ervin pitches Sunday.  But, it's against Chris Sale.  He's only 2-2, but the Sox scored 1 run combined in his two losses.  Quite frankly, Ervin is overdue for a subpar start.  He isn't the second coming of Sandy Koufax.  He isn't going to post a sub 1 ERA all year.

 

After that, the Twins go to Chicago and Cleveland. Then they play Colorado, Kansas City and Baltimore.  Let's say the Twins go 5-13 during that stretch, which I see as extremely possible.  That would make them 19-25.  Would you be ready to let Berrios pitch even if he hasn't mastered command?