Adam Jones and Fenway

[TheLeviathan]

http://i.imgur.com/368s3Mo.png

 

 

Yeah, but WE PAID FOR BLOOD!!!!!

 

This is the image in my head every time someone starts championing the retribution stuff.

[gunnarthor]

 

No, I'm not, not one iota. And I hope that they are never allowed back into Fenway.

 

But there is a correlation there whether or not you want to admit it. I'm not saying they decided to be racial bigots because of this ... they decided to act on their ugliness because of it.

 

Edit: Mike's answer above hits it ... encourage is a good word for this.

No. Show me any evidence that there's a correlation. You don't get to just claim there is. Your logic is literally saying that because a Latino ballplayer slid hard into a white ballplayer a fan was encouraged to use racial slurs at a black ball player a week later. There is nothing to support that theory at all and you're just excusing their behavior, even if you don't want to say you are.

 

You don't get to claim that the ball players created a mob mentality because of how they played the game. And pretending it does just gives a way for white people to excuse racist behavior.

[Mike Sixel]

 

No. Show me any evidence that there's a correlation. You don't get to just claim there is. Your logic is literally saying that because a Latino ballplayer slid hard into a white ballplayer a fan was encouraged to use racial slurs at a black ball player a week later. There is nothing to support that theory at all and you're just excusing their behavior, even if you don't want to say you are.

 

You don't get to claim that the ball players created a mob mentality because of how they played the game. And pretending it does just gives a way for white people to excuse racist behavior.

 

In addition to the yahoo article she posted? 

 

I can't believe you are still riding this train, that she is excusing this at all. 

[Thrylos]

 

 

I would, of course, fully support the Red Sox removing people for using any type of racial epitaph.

 

That would be way over crossing the line

[Thrylos]

 

A side note: 7.7% of MLB in 2017 is made up of African-American players.

 

That is bogus.  That is the figure of USA-born African-American players, which it is racist itself, since it does not take into consideration the Caribbean and South American-born African-Americans.

 

Sano, Rosario, Polanco , E & D Santana, Vargas and Escobar are as African-American as Buxton is. 

 

They are just not 'merican...

[gunnarthor]

 

In addition to the yahoo article she posted? 

 

I can't believe you are still riding this train, that she is excusing this at all. 

The yahoo article? How does that show correlation? Because Mike Oz of big league stew said so? He included two links and a tweet of people who simply don't believe Jones in the first place.

 

If you want to suggest things at a sport that are masks for racism, you might want to start with the Pheonix gorilla, not baseball fights. It is absurd that anyone would think that intensity of play would cause, encourage, or excuse racist fan behavior, which is exactly what is happening.

[gunnarthor]

 

 

 

I can't believe you are still riding this train, that she is excusing this at all. 

She literally typed "Because players seek retribution, so do the fans." That's an excuse. Then she wrote "If there weren't 'bad blood' stemming from a perceived wrong, would this be happening?" Another excuse. And then "This is when unwritten rules go awry and fans get into the act." That's moving the blame from the fans to the players.

 

[Thrylos]

Regarding what happened, (re-re-re)retribution or whatever, my point is very simple:

 

If this word belongs in someone's vocabulary there is a problem with that someone

If that someone feels comfortable to utter that word in the public towards a particular person, there is a bigger problem

 

There is no other way.  It is fundamental.

 

(and I am not talking about the peanuts.  Canseco and Knoblauch had worse stuff thrown at them in the Dome.) 

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

She literally typed "Because players seek retribution, so do the fans." That's an excuse. Then she wrote "If there weren't 'bad blood' stemming from a perceived wrong, would this be happening?" Another excuse. And then "This is when unwritten rules go awry and fans get into the act." That's moving the blame from the fans to the players.

Dude, it's really not. I bet you and ChiTown agree 99% on this subject, you're just digging for that 1% over which to disagree.

 

No one here is excusing fan behavior. ChiTown was simply saying the players feed into the mentality with their actions.

 

I don't even know if I agree with that idea but it's pretty trivial in the grand scheme of the incident.

[Squirrel]

She literally typed "Because players seek retribution, so do the fans." That's an excuse. Then she wrote "If there weren't 'bad blood' stemming from a perceived wrong, would this be happening?" Another excuse. And then "This is when unwritten rules go awry and fans get into the act." That's moving the blame from the fans to the players.

Do NOT EVER use my words in such a way to twist such an ugly tale. Ever. Or to anyone. Ever.

 

Machado slid hard, as he should. Pedroia got clipped with the cleats. To me, after watching video of it and seeing how the players each responded, I don't see any intent whatsoever that it was intentional or a dirty slide. You, however, set the whole thing up to suit your pursposes by claiming and labeling Machado as 'dirty' when that was completely unnecessary and uncalled for. Completely.

 

Next what happens ... the pitcher throws at Machado's head ... AT HIS FRIKKEN HEAD! For no reason, whatsoever ... just because he thought there was some intent, where there didn't appear to be, even at Pedroia's insistence that there was no issue. Even pitchers who think a plunk here and there is no harm have said 'Never at the head, ever.' But you, time and again, seem to relish in these kinds of retributions. I don't know who called for that throw ... the manager? the catcher? the pitcher just did it himself? other players? This kind of thing is wrong. And it is this kind of thing that sets up an atmosphere of ugliness between teams and amongst fans.

 

Next time the two teams play, the fans go after the opposing teams players in a horrible, horrible manner. I hope those fans get whats coming to them legally and are also never allowed back into Fenway. Never, EVER, is it okay in my book throw out racial slurs like that, in any circumstance. And no way in hell am I excusing it as okay or advocating for it. As I said above, the stage was set ... a stage, I might add, you were eagerly looking forward to. That it didn't come about in the manner you wanted or expected must disappoint something awful. And, as I said above, no way does this excuse or justify racial ugliness, ever. The fans were hyped up unnecessarily with these unwritten rules retribution CRAP, and ugliness spewing was what some fans chose. That they chose to do so specifically, I'm sorry you disagree, but I think there is a correlation. Would they have done it anyway? If they can do it at all, it is very likely, and that they are very much likely horrible individuals, but that this bubbled up as it did, when it did, against this particular team, yeah, I'd say there was a correlation there.

 

And, by the way, you are the only one here pointing out that particular players are black, white, Latin ... maybe you need to check your own racial issues here instead of pointing the finger at me or anyone else, as you are so wont to do.

[TheLeviathan]

 

It's not trivial. Think of any other context where victim blaming is used and you'll see the same arguments. "They shouldn't have said those words but ..." never, ever goes well. "Would the have done X if victim hadn't done Y?" This shouldn't be accepted regardless of who the moderators are.

 

No one is victim blaming.  This is more akin to Trump and a rally.  The players, in this case are Trump, and the fans are like people at his rally.

 

And I think the players are definitely emboldening action.  Racism specifically?  No, but hostility and violence?  Absolutely.

 

I don't get how someone with your political beliefs and stated feelings about homosexuality, racism, and a host of other issues can look at this situation and basically do a complete 180.  Do you love grown men slap-fighting on a baseball field so much that it transcends all of these other things you believe?  Because, man, you go through some crazy gymnastics to make sure no one besmirches the enforcement of the unwritten rules, no matter how blatant, racist, or unnecessary they are.

 

I honestly can't make any sense out of it.

[Vanimal46]

I can concur with some points made on both sides of this argument.

 

Mike brought up a great point that some fans that are so strongly associated with the team assume they assume a role within the team. They'll do things that they believe is helping "our" team.... Could be yelling/taunting at a player to throw them off their game, waving signs behind a backboard while someone shoots a free throw, etc.

 

I also concur with gunnarthor's point that bigots will be bigots. It is now an emotionally charged series because of the slide, near beaning, etc. In that environment with 30K+ people, access to alcohol, a person's true colors can come out.

 

In conclusion, if they weren't enforcing unnecessary "unwritten rules" the environment wouldn't be so tense and hostile. And most likely prevents a bigot from feeling empowered enough to spew hate in public... BUTTERFLY EFFECT.

[gunnarthor]

http://deadspin.com/how-not-to-react-to-news-of-boston-fan-racism-1794848944

 

 

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

It's not trivial. Think of any other context where victim blaming is used and you'll see the same arguments.

Victim blaming? Who here is blaming Jones? AFAIK, he didn't have a damned thing to do with any of this.

 

I'm certainly not blaming Machado, whose slide I defended as accidental.

 

So are the Red Sox the victims I'm blaming? Well, I guess I am. I'm blaming both the Red Sox (excepting Pedroia) and their awful, jackass, racist fans.

[TheLeviathan]

And despite their actions igniting a rivalry that may have fueled ugliness from their fans.....

 

Chris Sale throws at Manny Machado again.

 

WTF?

[gunnarthor]

 

And despite their actions igniting a rivalry that may have fueled ugliness from their fans.....

 

Chris Sale throws at Manny Machado again.

 

WTF?

sigh.

 

Yes, we should focus on what's important, ending rivalries in sports. That way, the poor fans won't be so agitated that they express racist thoughts. Do you honestly not see what you're saying?

[gunnarthor]

Let me put it this way since the mods are on me now. There is nothing to say on this other than "the racist fans in Boston are to blame." Full stop.  You don't get to add on a 'but' or a 'however.'  You don't say, 'yeah those racist buttheads are to blame but those players ..." No. The players actions had nothing to do with these idiots and giving those racists even a little wiggle room - the players encouraged their actions, a mob mentality egged them on, whatever - is a step too far.

[TheLeviathan]

 

sigh.

 

Yes, we should focus on what's important, ending rivalries in sports. That way, the poor fans won't be so agitated that they express racist thoughts. Do you honestly not see what you're saying?

 

I'm saying the Boston Red Sox are so tone deaf and short-sighted that despite 24 hours of trying to put the right face on things their starting pitcher still saw fit to throw a fastball behind that darn latin player whose exuberance "caused" this whole problem in the first place.

 

It's so pathetically narrow-minded, stupid, and tone deaf it'd be funny if the the idiots in that locker room (and those that justify their behavior) didn't take it so seriously.

 

Yes, the racists in Boston deserve the bulk of the condemnation.  There actions, however, likely don't happen without some butt hurt Boston baseball players deciding to manufacture a rivalry out of their inability to act like adults.  And the racists piled on.

 

If that's the kind of "rivalry" satisfies your blood lust, 'grats.  It does nothing for me.  I like rivalries built on competition and the desire to be better than your opponent.  Not on out-slap fighting each other over trumped up slights. 

[gunnarthor]

 

 

 

Yes, the racists in Boston deserve the bulk of the condemnation.  There actions, however, likely don't happen without some butt hurt Boston baseball players deciding to manufacture a rivalry out of their inability to act like adults.  And the racists piled on.

 

 

Who cares what reason racist fans needed? It's just pretext. They didn't say, "well, normally I would never call Adam Jones this or that but since the game is more important now, I'll say it."  No, they felt the environment in Fenway is acceptable to that language. That has nothing at all to do with the players and several reports today noted that. Nothing the players do or don't do affects that. The racism that we are condoning is on the fans. Full stop. Suggesting that the fans wouldn't act like this if the players acted differently is simply wrong. Jones has been targeted by Red Sox several times for this.

 

When CC Sabathia is called racist names it's not because the team he played for created that environment. It's because the fans created that environment.

 

http://nypost.com/2017/05/02/disgusted-cc-sabathia-opens-up-about-being-black-in-boston/

[glunn]

It is sad that we live in a world where racism is still prevalent, albeit mostly concealed.

 

I went to law school in Boston in the late 1970s.  My best friend was both African American and openly gay. He was persecuted by people who held themselves out as liberal (long, sad story). My friend told me more than once that he preferred open racism and homophobia to the more covert variety that was being directed against him, because at least with open racism/homophobia  he knew where he stood.

 

Sadly, my friend died of AIDS and is not available to shed light on this discussion. However, I think that what he might say is that the partisan environment in Fenway that night may help explain why the racist sentiment was expressed at that moment, but in no way excuses it. I think that he also might say that other factors may have been in play, including alcohol and stupidity.

 

I agree with what Brock said above about being 99% in agreement in this thread. I also appreciate that TD provides a forum where we can openly discuss the 1% or so of the overall issue as to which there may be disagreement. But I would urge people to show greater appreciation of the fact that we all seem to agree that what happened was very wrong and that nothing can excuse such behavior. 

 

To put this another way, my impression is that all of the posts in this thread have been made by people whose hearts are in the right place, and the fact that we are all sickened by what happened is a lot more important than the fact that we might disagree to some extent about why the racism came out at that particular moment.

[ashbury]

Point of information: do teams actually not allow certain fans to come back another time? If so, how do they enforce it? When I pass through Security on Yawkey Way at Red Sox games, and every other ballpark I can recall, at no point is my ID an issue - simply metal objects. (And one time, at Oakland Coliseum, a decorative stone I keep in my pocket was an issue that I was able to talk my way through. Hey, it's Oakland, I immediately understood their concern, although this was baseball not football.)

 

My guess is that they get a restraining order in place, and then if the miscreant gets ejected a second time they have the evidence to really throw the book. But that's not quite the prior-restraint some here seem to be calling for.

[Otto von Ballpark]

A first-hand account from this incident:

 

http://www.sportsonearth.com/article/227811194/adam-jones-fenway-park-racism-fans

 

 

 

A kid named Niko Poulakidas, a senior at Woburn High School on his way to Salem State in the fall, was in the bleachers on Monday night, out in center near where the Green Monster ends. He was, he says, 15 or 20 rows behind the guy who eventually called Jones the N-word and got himself ejected.

"Early on, people were laughing that he was throwing peanuts at Jones. But towards the end, I realized most people were just giving dirty looks," said Poulakidas. "The N-word was the turning point for sure. Once that was said, everything turned serious."
 

I asked him if anybody stood up and tried to stop the guy.

"The guy seemed drunk and angry, which is probably why no one said anything to him at first. No one wants to start a fight. There probably wasn't a way to reason with a meathead of his magnitude."
 

Poulakidas continued, "Some fans finally started yelling 'shut up' and calling him a 'jabroni.' But the turning point really was when people went from laughing about the peanuts to being angry that he said the N-word. Guy was ... definitely drinking."

It is Poulakidas' recollection that the man doing the yelling at Jones was finally ejected in the seventh inning.
 

"The vendor selling beer up and down the crowd refused to serve him," the kid said. "When the vendor got to the guy behind me, he said, 'Bunch of ----ing dopes down there."

 

Sounds like the rest of the crown and the stadium staff had appropriate reactions.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

 You don't get to add on a 'but' or a 'however.'  You don't say, 'yeah those racist buttheads are to blame but those players ..." No. The players actions had nothing to do with these idiots and giving those racists even a little wiggle room - the players encouraged their actions, a mob mentality egged them on, whatever - is a step too far.

This is going to be my last post on the matter but, yes, people very much get to say "but" and lay a small part of the blame on player behavior if they feel it emboldened fans to act like horrible jackasses. That doesn't excuse fan behavior, it doesn't make it anything but wrong and terrible.

 

But if you can't accept that some people find causation in things you personally find irrelevant, the moderators are going to step into the thread. This isn't a witch hunt nor is it personal. Notice the complete lack of people agreeing with you in this thread and pursuing this line of thought.

 

And, hell, I don't even know if I agree with saying the players' actions were a little bit responsible for what happened. Nor do I really care, when you get right down to it. I think both the players' and fans' actions have been terrible over the past week of baseball. Are they connected? Dunno. Don't care. In my opinion, there was enough jackassery all around for lots of people to be blamed for their individual actions.

[gunnarthor]

 

It is sad that we live in a world where racism is still prevalent, albeit mostly concealed.

 

I went to law school in Boston in the late 1970s.  My best friend was both African American and openly gay. He was persecuted by people who held themselves out as liberal (long, sad story). My friend told me more than once that he preferred open racism and homophobia to the more covert variety that was being directed against him, because at least with open racism/homophobia  he knew where he stood.

 

Sadly, my friend died of AIDS and is not available to shed light on this discussion. However, I think that what he might say is that the partisan environment in Fenway that night may help explain why the racist sentiment was expressed at that moment, but in no way excuses it. I think that he also might say that other factors may have been in play, including alcohol and stupidity.

 

I agree with what Brock said above about being 99% in agreement in this thread. I also appreciate that TD provides a forum where we can openly discuss the 1% or so of the overall issue as to which there may be disagreement. But I would urge people to show greater appreciation of the fact that we all seem to agree that what happened was very wrong and that nothing can excuse such behavior. 

 

To put this another way, my impression is that all of the posts in this thread have been made by people whose hearts are in the right place, and the fact that we are all sickened by what happened is a lot more important than the fact that we might disagree to some extent about why the racism came out at that particular moment.

Glunn, I appreciate your story and your comment. This thread bothered me a lot last night to the point where I had trouble sleeping over it.  I do agree that everyone here thinks the language used has no purpose and those idiots are true scum.  That's good.  

 

My bigger concern is trying to justify or excuse such acts.  Saying that the players actions in any way was a reason for such language is both factually wrong and it creates a way to take some (not all) of the blame off of the yahoos that did this.

 

Read this story.  Long story short, apparently a professional video game player was caught using racist language and was fired over it. After it came out, he claimed that he was not racist and he made the same excuses we're seeing in this thread - that it was extremely competitive environment, he was upset and that the other side was cheating.  No one in their right mind believes those excuses.  When one of these Boston idiots gets publicly outed (and it'll happen eventually) he'll say the same thing. "I'm not racist. I was just worked up over how they spiked Pedroia" as if that's a reason for that language. When we create excuses - even if our intent wasn't to give the racists an out - it softens how we view the act.

[gunnarthor]

 

This is going to be my last post on the matter but, yes, people very much get to say "but" and lay a small part of the blame on player behavior if they feel it emboldened fans to act like horrible jackasses. That doesn't excuse fan behavior, it doesn't make it anything but wrong and terrible.

 

 

No, they don't. Unless you have actual studies that show that competitive sporting events permissibly create environments where racism is tolerated or allowed, this is bunk. Houston and Texas had a wonderful couple of days of fighting but we aren't seeing Houston fans calling Beltre racist words.  Ranger fans didn't use racist language against Bautista. Blue Jays fans didn't use it against Odor.  As the Sabathia article noted, black ball players know that they'll be called horrific names in Boston and no where else. That's not because Fenway is super competitive. It's not because the players call it on themselves. It's on the fans and the culture they have created.

[nicksaviking]

 

Who cares what reason racist fans needed?

 

 

 

No, they don't. Unless you have actual studies that show that competitive sporting events permissibly create environments where racism is tolerated or allowed, this is bunk.

 

So you expect behavior to change without first finding out the factors that bring out the improper behavior?

 

No one's claiming to be an expert in the psychological issues of bigots, but few people here are statisticians or batting coaches and that doesn't stop us from speculating about why Byron Buxton has trouble making contact with breaking balls.

 

If you think the causation of behaviors is irrelevant then you don't actually care about fixing the problem, you just want to point fingers.

[TheLeviathan]

 

 

If you think the causation of behaviors is irrelevant then you don't actually care about fixing the problem, you just want to point fingers.

 

And in this case, the finger pointing is a diversion because allowing the causes to be looked at shines a negative light on the thing you hold so dear.

 

I predict it's going to take a gay player being thrown at (for being gay, as often the latin players are being thrown at for being latin) for some to change their tune on this whole issue.  And it'll happen, probably in our life times.  Probably very soon.

[gunnarthor]

 

 

 

If you think the causation of behaviors is irrelevant then you don't actually care about fixing the problem, you just want to point fingers.

If you think racist behavior and statements by fans is created or encouraged by anything that players do, you don't understand how racism works.  Guys like the video game player or the yokel who threw peanuts and shouted racist taunts didn't get there because of anything Adam Jones did.

[nicksaviking]

 

If you think racist behavior and statements by fans is created or encouraged by anything that players do, you don't understand how racism works.  Guys like the video game player or the yokel who threw peanuts and shouted racist taunts didn't get there because of anything Adam Jones did.

 

Perhaps you should have led with that response instead of accusing someone else of being a supporter of bigots.

 

 

[Taildragger8791]

 

A side note: 7.7% of MLB in 2017 is made up of African-American players. This percentage is pretty consistent from year to year. In the NBA and NFL the number of African-American players is much higher. The choice of which game to play lies with the individual athlete. But it is a shame MLB is so under-represddnted.

 

Then on a "sider" note: I'm sure this is not quantifiable, but what is the racial breakdown of fans across the BIG sports in the US? I would say the fans are predominantly white - maybe 80%. Just a guess. Something to examine. Why aren't there more African-American fans, in other words? Ticket prices, perhaps. It just sort of bothers me to see such a predominance of white people in the stands.

 

This statistic is often repeated and is as broken and misleading as the one claiming women make $0.77 on the dollar relative to men.

 

When you consider only American-born players roughly 12% are African American, which is pretty close to the national average of the population. I can't really get too worked up with this gripe that African Americans aren't fairly represented in baseball relative to American population demographics.

 

NFL is at 68% and NBA is at 75%. I don't see anyone complaining about tilted demographics in those sports. Why is it a crime to be normally represented instead of overrepresented? And why is this complaint always based on the idea that players born outside the 50 states somehow don't count?