Berardino: Twins build Culture Club with five low-cost veterans

[Squirrel]

He was one of the "leaders" in the 103 L team, which means that a. his leadership skills were lacking by 1. being interested more in individual vs team achievement or 2.. lacking the ability to inspire/move/take his teammates on his back and strive for a winning season.

 

That's why...

I'm sorry, Thrylos, but you have no inside knowledge of this whatsoever. It's your opinion based solely on the fact Dozier had a career year and the results over all didn't match. That means and proves absolutely diddlysquat. Yes, I said diddlysquat. You have no idea what Dozier tried and didn't try. And there were 25 other guys on that team, too, yet it's all on Dozier? And further, everything I have read about the kind of person Dozier is, none of it was ever 'me first.' It was a losing team, period. That is not on Dozier alone one iota, maybe not even a part iota. I know you just want everyone and everything gone that Terry Ryan ever touched, smelled, spoke to or saw, but that honestly is not the way forward and doesn't taint things moving forward at all.

[Dozier's Glorious Hair]

Felix Hernandez has been the leader of a lot of bad Mariners teams. They were bad because:

 

( A ) He's a selfish player
( B ) He couldn't inspire his teammates to win
( C ) The teams were just plain terrible and there was really nothing he could do about it

 

( C ) is probably the correct answer... although if the Mariners, after their 101-loss season in 2010, decided to blame their "bad leader" for it and wished to dump him onto some other team (like, say, the Twins), I wouldn't have talked them out of it. 

[Thrylos]

 

I'm sorry, Thrylos, but you have no inside knowledge of this whatsoever. It's your opinion based solely on the fact Dozier had a career year and the results over all didn't match. That means and proves absolutely diddlysquat. Yes, I said diddlysquat. You have no idea what Dozier tried and didn't try. And there were 25 other guys on that team, too, yet it's all on Dozier? And further, everything I have read about the kind of person Dozier is, none of it was ever 'me first.' It was a losing team, period. That is not on Dozier alone one iota, maybe not even a part iota. I know you just want everyone and everything gone that Terry Ryan ever touched, smelled, spoke to or saw, but that honestly is not the way forward and doesn't taint things moving forward at all.

 

 

We all have one piece of data:

 

103 losses.

 

Undisputable, no?

 

Were the leaders of that team effective? 

 

I'd say no, and I bet that would be the answer (opinion) of 99% of the people out there

 

Was Dozier a leader?  It really does not matter.  If he were, he was ineffective (and he should go) and if he were not, he is selfish (all those home runs, he better care about leading the team to a better record) and he should go.

 

No middle way about this one

 

1-0-3.

FACT

[Thrylos]

 

 

Felix Hernandez has been the leader of a lot of bad Mariners teams. They were bad because:

 

( A ) He's a selfish player
( B ) He couldn't inspire his teammates to win
( C ) The teams were just plain terrible and there was really nothing he could do about it

 

( C ) is probably the correct answer... although if the Mariners, after their 101-loss season in 2010, decided to blame their "bad leader" for it and wished to dump him onto some other team (like, say, the Twins), I wouldn't have talked them out of it. 

 

Felix Hernandez killed himself and 2 people (who are suing his estate, btw) while driving his boat high on cocaine and way above the legal alcohol limit (Facts).

 

I'd say A was likely the correct answer here...

[Dozier's Glorious Hair]

 

Felix Hernandez killed himself and 2 people (who are suing his estate, btw) while driving his boat high on cocaine and way above the legal alcohol limit (Facts).

 

I'd say A was likely the correct answer here...

 

That wasn't Felix Hernandez.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

I think you are getting your players confused

[Willihammer]

[Squirrel]

We all have one piece of data:

 

103 losses.

 

Undisputable, no?

 

Were the leaders of that team effective? 

 

I'd say no, and I bet that would be the answer (opinion) of 99% of the people out there

 

Was Dozier a leader?  It really does not matter.  If he were, he was ineffective (and he should go) and if he were not, he is selfish (all those home runs, he better care about leading the team to a better record) and he should go.

 

No middle way about this one

 

1-0-3.

FACT

The only fact in there is that the Twins lost 103 games. There is no correlation that the fault of that lies on Dozier. None. You are not spouting facts here when you go beyond that ... only opinion. Do not mix the two up. You don't know diddlysquat at what leadership there was or wasn't and from whom, so to put this on Dozier is just you looking for a scapegoat and throwing out accusations without any proof whatsoever.

[Rhino and Compass]

If these 5 are really a new Culture Club for the Twins, I can only ask... Derek Falvey, do you really want to hurt me? Do you REALLY want to make me cry?

[HitInAPinch]

I guess I'll wait for year 2 of the new regime before I really start ripping them. 

And then,  Ooooooo......

[Guest]

Wouldn't a better analogy for these veterans be The Expendables?

[drjim]

Felix Hernandez killed himself and 2 people (who are suing his estate, btw) while driving his boat high on cocaine and way above the legal alcohol limit (Facts).

 

I'd say A was likely the correct answer here...

I thought that was Dozier driving.

[Platoon]

The is one indisputable factoid about Brian Dozier. And because the Twins have been irrelevant for so long, it could be considered a SSS point. But it's this: The Twins have had only two timeframes of possible contention, or if you prefer, general interest in the last 7? years. One is the last part of the miracle 2015 race for the second WC spot, and then the following year when hope sprung eternal. And BD was nowhere to be found. He is not the only player in history to be tarred with that particular brush, and the Twins have afforded little opportunity to enlarge that SSS. But it exists. Dozier is the best player on the Mn. Twins. Which is a lot like saying John Smith was the best Captain on the Titanic. But despite dangling him from a yard sign for 3 months on Falvines front yard, all we were offered is a decent level SP prospect. That's still troubling. The potential for Twins future success in the area that the position players contribute to will not be driven by Brian Dozier, but by Sano, Kepler, Buxton, Rosario, Polanco, and a SS TBD. If someone from that group does not become the leader and the face of the Twins, TF will be a very large food court at best.

[DaveW]

This team would have lost 110 games had Dozier not put up an MVP season.

 

TBH I would prefer they trade Dozier for some front line pitching, but he absolutely was NOT the problem with the 2016 Twins, Dozier is highly respected in media circles and within clubhouses and front offices as one of the "good guys" in baseball. To suggest that his leadership was the reason why the Twins had historically bad pitching is preposterous.

 

In fact he was one of the (few) reasons to actually watch this team during the season last year.

 

I wish him the best wherever he lands.

[DaveW]

Felix Hernandez killed himself and 2 people (who are suing his estate, btw) while driving his boat high on cocaine and way above the legal alcohol limit (Facts).

 

I'd say A was likely the correct answer here...

Not sure which is more troubling with this statement:

 

1. Felix Hernandez is alive and well and is beloved in Seattle and across baseball.

 

2. Crapping on the grave of a dead early 20 year old. People make mistakes, there is no need to trash the kid (Jose Fernandez) that's a tragic story all around, lessons can certainly be learned, but to trash him like this? Come on.

[DaveW]

Also fwiw: Fernandez was loved by his teammates, organization, city, country and troughout sports. By all accounts he was a great guy.

 

A great guy that unfortunately let substances cloud his judgement one night and he made a terrible mistake.

[mikelink45]

I cannot quantify the manager effect, but I can see some managers who seem to move players to higher performance and seem to out maneuver the opposition.  I cannot put a number on this, but I would take Madden and Bochy any day.  And one of the reasons they succeed is that their job is more than the game itself, it is about creating the clubhouse culture.  Those teams do not sign washed out vets to make their team culture better.  The Stubbs, Vogelsong, Tepesch, Breslow, Belisle, Giminez signings do nothing for me.  

 

We have a Hall of Fame Manager and a massive collection of coaches, who played, have been around mlb and should be providing the leadership needed.  The young players do lack for wiley vets - they have Dozier, Mauer, Castro, Escobar, Santiago, Santana, Perkins, Hughes, Kintzler, Bosher, Belisle in the 29+  age group and could end up with more - that is half the active roster.  With the coaches, the three feel good old timers - Cuddyer, Hawkins, and Hunter, and this group they might consider a psychologist before cluttering up the team with more feel good vets.

 

http://m.twins.mlb.com/roster/

[Mike Sixel]

Mike Trout, sucks as a leader, clearly part of the problem in CA....

[Doomtints]

 

More like "fewer than 3-4 wins/losses".

A manager worth 10 wins would be a $50m value to a baseball franchise and would be one of the biggest Moneyball coups in the history of the game.

 

So we are to believe now that managers barely affect games but pitch framers getting an extra strike a game are "moneyball coups"?

[Mike Sixel]

 

So we are to believe now that managers barely affect games but pitch framers getting an extra strike a game are "moneyball coups"?

 

What do you think?

 

If a player win is worth 8 million a year or so....why wouldn't a manager win be worth that? 

 

Do you really think great managers are worth 10 more wins than the average manager?

[Brock Beauchamp]

So we are to believe now that managers barely affect games but pitch framers getting an extra strike a game are "moneyball coups"?

Yep, that's why elite pitch framers cost the outrageous sum of $6-8m a season.

[Doomtints]

 

Yep, that's why elite pitch framers cost the outrageous sum of $6-8m a season.

 

The point is, people are advertising pitch framing as being worth much more than 4 games a year.

[Mike Sixel]

 

The point is, people are advertising pitch framing as being worth much more than 4 games a year.

 

We aren't talking pitch framing, we are talking manager value......what do the two have to do with each other?

[Brandon Warne]

 

Not sure which is more troubling with this statement:

1. Felix Hernandez is alive and well and is beloved in Seattle and across baseball.

2. Crapping on the grave of a dead early 20 year old. People make mistakes, there is no need to trash the kid (Jose Fernandez) that's a tragic story all around, lessons can certainly be learned, but to trash him like this? Come on.

 

Eh. I'm not really sure how we've gotten to the point where society says you can't say things about people who make these tragic, horrific "mistakes." 

 

We don't go easy on everyday, ordinary people who drink, drive and kill others. 

 

It's probably a fine line -- that is, between pointing out what he did wrong and trashing him -- but I think we as a society are taking "c'mon, he just made a mistake" a bit too far. 

[Brandon Warne]

My dude Grant made a good point on twitter: Yeah he made a mistake, but he'd be in jail for a long, long time if he'd somehow survived.

[Vanimal46]

 

My dude Grant made a good point on twitter: Yeah he made a mistake, but he'd be in jail for a long, long time if he'd somehow survived.

 

All things being equal and no one died on the boat? Nah, he wouldn't be in jail for a long, long time. Because he's an athlete, sadly, is why. Double standards and the haves vs. have-nots in America...  

[Brandon Warne]

 

All things being equal and no one died on the boat? Nah, he wouldn't be in jail for a long, long time. Because he's an athlete, sadly, is why. Double standards and the haves vs. have-nots in America...  

 

I meant if he alone had survived. To your point...probably. 

 

But us saying he "made a mistake" isn't closing that gap, either. It's probably widening it. (edit: very minimally because nothing we do really matters)

[DaveW]

Did I excuse him for it?? Did I ever say it was ok for him to do it or if he wouldn't have died he shouldn't have gotten punished? Just curious before you accuse me of "widening the gap" whatever that means.

 

I said he made a mistake and paid the ultimate price for it. I have one friend who was almost paralyzed due to a drunk driver, and another who drove his motorcycle wasted and died after he collided with an SUV at 90 MPH. Tragic mistake and he paid dearly, that doesn't make it any less sad to lose an otherwise good person at such a young age.

 

Not everything has to be so black and white you know...also his friends in the boat were also high and drunk at the time, they made mistakes as well getting in the boat and they paid the ultimate price as well.

 

Sad all around.

 

Also I'd wager that the majority of people on this site (whether they want to admit it or not) at least got in a car at one point in their life with a driver who was over the legal limit.

[Squirrel]

Back on topic please.

[DaveW]

Of the 5 mentioned in this article only Beslie and Breslow interest me at all.

 

The rest? No reason why they should sniff the major league roster