Article: What if the Twins do Nothing Today?

[Obie]

Excellent article, Seth, you nailed it. No need for a fire sale today. Nice to see that folks have mostly walked back from jumping off the cliff, and the comments are more reasonable today and less visceral (with a couple of exceptions).

 

I like the suggestion of leaving Valencia at 3rd and putting Plouffe at 2nd when he returns. May not work out, but it has tremendous upside; why not use the next couple of months to make a determination for next year.

[jctwins]

If they do nothing, put Gardy on waivers and see if anyone will claim him.

[Jim Crikket]

Frankly, there is NOTHING Ryan can do that will satisfy some people, short of pulling off highway robbery deals. If he makes deals, he isn't getting enough... or the right guys... or the best guys... or... or... or. If he makes no deals, he's a bum. By the way. the great MacPhail has pretty much been considered MacFAIL by the fan base of every organization he's gone to since he left the Twins.

 

I'm constantly amazed that some people think the answer to every challenge is to trade/fire everyone and then magically the team will go from sellers at the deadline to the World Series without having to bother first working their way back in to contending status.

 

If only all the world's problems could be solved this way.

[gunnarthor]

They put together a big streak right before the deadline causing them to only be like 5 or so games out of first place at the time.

 

Also I think you are forgetting Plouffe as anohter guy who really wasn't playing at the start of the season, also Mauer and Morneau both started rather slow coming back from injuries.

 

I have said it before and will say it again, with this current roster the Twins are basically a .500 team, the hitting, defense and bullpen are all good enough to compete (could upgrades be made? Sure), its going to all come down to the starting pitching moving forward into 2013 onwards.

 

I'd say this team is 3 SP away from competing next year, ideally Gibson and Hendriks could be two of those pitchers and Ryan can go out and spend his money on a guy like Sanchez for the third.

Yeah, I mostly feel like this too. I think we need more improvement from first base but I'm all right with giving Morneau the at bats to get back into shape. Obviously, the MI is still a problem but with good starting pitching, I think this team could compete for the central. But with Arcia/Hicks somewhat close, I really hope the Twins get a great deal for Span.

[savvyspy]

I don't expect the dead ass Twins to make a trade, because they never work at it.

As you watch other teams improve rosters today the Twins will be left with this overpriced underachieving junk heap of a roster that wouldn't contend if you contracted half the American League.

 

The most ridiculous thing ever written has to be, "If not for a horrendous 6 weeks." This is one of the 3 worst teams in the majors. You can't ignore all the losses and call them a contender. For 2 years they have proved their pitching is horrible, Mauer doesn't make them better, Morneau is never going to be the player he was, they don't have infielders that can bat over .250, they have a glut of outfielders, they can't develop players, get worked at the trade deadline, and they absolutely REFUSE to spend money on what any championship team needs, an ace starting pitcher.

 

It is what it is. They are no more a contender than the Vikings are. the only difference is it doesn't appear the Twins even understand what their plan is to get better.

[J-Dog Dungan]

Honestly, Liriano was the only piece the Twins had that they HAD to move. If they don't get what they are asking for for anybody else, well then, sucks.

[Boom Boom]

They put together a big streak right before the deadline causing them to only be like 5 or so games out of first place at the time.

 

Also I think you are forgetting Plouffe as anohter guy who really wasn't playing at the start of the season, also Mauer and Morneau both started rather slow coming back from injuries.

I have said it before and will say it again, with this current roster the Twins are basically a .500 team, the hitting, defense and bullpen are all good enough to compete (could upgrades be made? Sure), its going to all come down to the starting pitching moving forward into 2013 onwards.

 

I'd say this team is 3 SP away from competing next year, ideally Gibson and Hendriks could be two of those pitchers and Ryan can go out and spend his money on a guy like Sanchez for the third.

If a team has offense, defense and bullpen that are good enough to compete, and still needs three starters, I don't think they're quite a .500 team.

[Mike Sixel]

I am pretty tired of the attacks on people on this site, rather than their ideas. Is there a reason we cannot disagree reasonably, without exaggerating everything the "other side" says?

[mikeee]

They put together a big streak right before the deadline causing them to only be like 5 or so games out of first place at the time.

 

Also I think you are forgetting Plouffe as anohter guy who really wasn't playing at the start of the season, also Mauer and Morneau both started rather slow coming back from injuries.

 

I have said it before and will say it again, with this current roster the Twins are basically a .500 team, the hitting, defense and bullpen are all good enough to compete (could upgrades be made? Sure), its going to all come down to the starting pitching moving forward into 2013 onwards.

 

I'd say this team is 3 SP away from competing next year, ideally Gibson and Hendriks could be two of those pitchers and Ryan can go out and spend his money on a guy like Sanchez for the third.

yeah, I didn't get all the details.

I won't feel that bad if they don't make any moves here. Maybe getting rid of a little more salary with Capps and Pavano will

give them some to spend on a SP.

[DaveW]

If a team has offense, defense and bullpen that are good enough to compete, and still needs three starters, I don't think they're quite a .500 team.

They have been playing like a .500 team ever since Mauer/Morneau started preforming, Plouffe was given playing time, Diamond was moved into the rotation etc.

 

Coming into the year I thought they would win anywhere between 78-83 games, I didn't expect the rotation to be this bad, but the offense and bullpen have been better than what I thought. They still have a shot to win 78 games.

[diehardtwinsfan]

I think that here is part of the root of the problem with this team:

 

 

a. you cannot cut the season in chunks look at the best chunk and hope that what happened then is the "truth". They did that last season, stayed put at the deadline and ended up losing 99. Lesson not learned?

 

b. if we are ok with them making the post-season instead of being competitive in the post-season and making and winning the World Series, it will never happen.

 

 

Back to the original premise, if they do nothing, it will reinforce my belief that for the Twins to win (see b. above - which have not done until MacPhail was the GM) this whole front office team needs to go from the top to the bottom and new blood needs to come...

 

a. This is true, but at the same point, I think your outlook also obfuscates the truth. That turn around coincided with dumping a number of players and having others move into those roles... Since then, they've been a much better team. I don't think anyone is saying "stand pat," but they do recognizes that there are some legitimate pieces to build with.

 

b. I agree 100% with this. I don't like the "well let's just get there" attitude. The playoffs are a stepping stone to achieving a goal. I do think that they need to be realistic about it in that they need to be adding pitching big time... A decent rotation and suddenly they are in contention. It doesn't account for all the holes on this team, but it's one piece... and a big one that needs fixing.

[Winston Smith]

In 2006 they were a very good team and went 0-3 in the playoffs. Since that time, the 2007 season thru now the Twins are 455-459, 914 games not a small sample size. When you consider they play in the Central which tends to be a weaker division, that isn't a record of a great franchise. (73-127 against the East)

To think things are ok and we aren't that far away is silly at best and the record over the last 5 plus years points to a team content with being mediocre.

[DaveW]

In 2006 they were a very good team and went 0-3 in the playoffs. Since that time, the 2007 season thru now the Twins are 455-459, 914 games not a small sample size. When you consider they play in the Central which tends to be a weaker division, that isn't a record of a great franchise. (73-127 against the East)

To think things are ok and we aren't that far away is silly at best and the record over the last 5 plus years points to a team content with being mediocre.

What was there record from 2007 to 2010?

 

These random numbers you are throwing out are next to pointless seeing how the Twins had several good seasons (some great) followed up by two clunkers in 2011, 2012.

 

The record they had in 2008 has zero to do with their 2012 record.

[Jim Crikket]

Coming into the year I thought they would win anywhere between 78-83 games, I didn't expect the rotation to be this bad, but the offense and bullpen have been better than what I thought. They still have a shot to win 78 games.

I'm really not too concerned with whether the Twins win 78 games this year or 58. At this point, their final record is immaterial. August should be about getting marginal players enough innings to fairly evaluate whether they should be part of the plans for 2013 and September should be about giving some young players some opportunities to show they should get some consideration next year, too. If that means you lose more games than you would with your A line up out there every day, so be it.

 

I know losing 100+ games will just give some folks more ammunition to blast the front office and field management, but the decision makers will know it was still the right approach.

[nicksaviking]

I'd like to see the Twins push to move Burnett and hope that some GM likes his 1.16 WHIP and 2.90 ERA. I'd move him for just about anything, I don't want him in the bullpen going forward. He's getting the job done now but I don't know how. I think going forward he's going to do more harm than good with the awful K/9 rate.

[Seth Stohs]

Listen, no one is saying that this is a playoff team as is. No one is saying that the first six weeks of the season didn't matter. It does. But so do that last 65 games. Add some pitching, and they may not be all that far from being much improved and contending. Not this year, but next year, if certain things happen.

 

Also, I 100% agree that the Twins should be going after high-ceiling pitching prospects in any trades... the question is whether or not teams are even making those types of talents available. That's the question. If they could get Dylan Bundy from the Orioles, or Jameson Taillon or Gerrit Cole from the Pirates, they would.

[Mike Sixel]

I'm really not too concerned with whether the Twins win 78 games this year or 58. At this point, their final record is immaterial. August should be about getting marginal players enough innings to fairly evaluate whether they should be part of the plans for 2013 and September should be about giving some young players some opportunities to show they should get some consideration next year, too. If that means you lose more games than you would with your A line up out there every day, so be it.

 

I know losing 100+ games will just give some folks more ammunition to blast the front office and field management, but the decision makers will know it was still the right approach.

On this, we agree 100%

[James]

Listen, no one is saying that this is a playoff team as is. No one is saying that the first six weeks of the season didn't matter. It does. But so do that last 65 games. Add some pitching, and they may not be all that far from being much improved and contending. Not this year, but next year, if certain things happen.

 

Also, I 100% agree that the Twins should be going after high-ceiling pitching prospects in any trades... the question is whether or not teams are even making those types of talents available. That's the question. If they could get Dylan Bundy from the Orioles, or Jameson Taillon or Gerrit Cole from the Pirates, they would.

Seth, I don't think you understand, the Twins could have all three of those guys. TR is just not trying hard enough to get them.

 

(I really hope the sarcasm came through on that one).

 

I get a lot of weird vibes from some posters on this site that really think that other teams are just going to give up those types of prospects to get Span or Willingham. Is it possible, not without a lot of extras thrown in there. Starting pitching prospects with #1 type stuff are the most coveted pieces in an organization now. It takes a lot to pry one away from a team.

[Winston Smith]

What was there record from 2007 to 2010?

 

These random numbers you are throwing out are next to pointless seeing how the Twins had several good seasons (some great) followed up by two clunkers in 2011, 2012.

 

The record they had in 2008 has zero to do with their 2012 record.

It does go to the point over an extended period of time this has been a mediocre team. These are not random numbers this is the actual record of games played. I did not cherry pick from May 16th.... If you are happy with mediocre fine, I am not. Time for a change!

[DaveW]

It does go to the point over an extended period of time this has been a mediocre team. These are not random numbers this is the actual record of games played. I did not cherry pick from May 16th.... If you are happy with mediocre fine, I am not. Time for a change!

88, 87, 94 is the number of wins they had in 2008,2009 and 2010. That is medicore??

 

The Twins had 3 very nice seasons (one great) followed up by the 2nd worst in franchise history. Again 2012 has nothing to do with what happened in 2007/2008.

 

Again, you throwing out their record from 2007 onwards is pointless.

[DPJ]

Again, you throwing out their record from 2007 onwards is pointless.

Like throwing out that the Twins have been a .500 team from some random meaningless date in May.

[SeanS7921]

I think the Twins should move Morneau if someone will eat the 14 million due to him next year and the Twins eat this year. With that I'm be giddy with a B prospect but a Player to be named would work to. If the Twins lose that 14 million they will have salary flexbility going forward and Morneau has brought no value to the Twins for that money. .5 WAR, lost his defensive value and he can't hit lefties. The Twins probably won't complete in 2013 and at that point Morneau is free agent. The lineup has been solid with Span, Revere, Mauer, Willingham, Plouffe & Doumit. They don't need Morneau and Parmelee could probably do what Morneau has done (AAA numbers exciting) for 13.5 million less.

[70charger]

Winston Smith and DPJ:

 

There is an enormous difference between the time periods quoted. That difference is: team members. I would argue that dismissing the first several weeks of the season is absolutely warranted, simply because the Twins had a totally different lineup. Plouffe wasn't playing, Dozier wasn't up, Valencia was still whiffing at the major league level, Sean Burroughs was on the roster, Jason Marquis was putting up an 8 ERA, Pavano was still pitching, etc. Beginning in mid- to late-May, the Twins were a different team, and that's why quoting the record since then is not cherry picking.

 

On the other hand, your quoting the record over the last five years is entirely moot, because the teams are all so different among those five years. Hell, even over the last two years, look at the differences!

 

Between 2010 and 2012, here are the changes. First base is the same, but second, third, and short are all different. Center field is the same, but left and right are both different. Catcher is technically the same, but now Mauer is half-time. DH is different. 3 out of the 5 starting pitchers are gone. The reliever corps is quite different too, but that's expected, so we'll leave them out of the total count.

 

That means that, total, the 2010 team and 2012 team have about 5 and a half players in common, out of a possible 14. Adding up the stats for the last five years means adding up stats for teams that are radically different. That's why your point doesn't hold.

[SeanS7921]

As for Dozier I know he is a Seth guy and a Gardy guy but his numbers are atrocious even for a Rookie. The one thing I'd say his his fielding errors have been pronounced but overall he hasn't been terrible at the position. But a 272 OBP .2 WAR with average Defense creates no optimism. His minor league numbers don't back up that this is just an adjustment to the majors either. He's 25 as well, at that age if you were actually a prospect you would expect way better numbers. If this team had two quality starters to go with Diamond (Guys who could pitch 200 innings 2-4 WAR and K rates at 6 or above) along with a SS or 2B (Carroll outstanding Utility guy) who could give them 1-2 WAR they probably would be close to a playoff team. They never would have started so bad and would probably be around 500 if not better.

[Thrylos]

Winston Smith and DPJ:

 

There is an enormous difference between the time periods quoted. That difference is: team members. I would argue that dismissing the first several weeks of the season is absolutely warranted, simply because the Twins had a totally different lineup. Plouffe wasn't playing, Dozier wasn't up, Valencia was still whiffing at the major league level, Sean Burroughs was on the roster, Jason Marquis was putting up an 8 ERA, Pavano was still pitching, etc. Beginning in mid- to late-May, the Twins were a different team, and that's why quoting the record since then is not cherry picking.

 

On the other hand, your quoting the record over the last five years is entirely moot, because the teams are all so different among those five years. Hell, even over the last two years, look at the differences!

 

Between 2010 and 2012, here are the changes. First base is the same, but second, third, and short are all different. Center field is the same, but left and right are both different. Catcher is technically the same, but now Mauer is half-time. DH is different. 3 out of the 5 starting pitchers are gone. The reliever corps is quite different too, but that's expected, so we'll leave them out of the total count.

 

That means that, total, the 2010 team and 2012 team have about 5 and a half players in common, out of a possible 14. Adding up the stats for the last five years means adding up stats for teams that are radically different. That's why your point doesn't hold.

Here is the point:

 

the 2011 team was awful. Not enough was done before the 2012 season to improve it enough to be a contender. The 2012 team is awful. So you got to fix it. If you sit on your rear end and do nothing, it is not going to fix itself. That's why Ryan should be on the phone trying to get new players here.

 

Or, you can say "we cannot compete in 2013 and look towards 2014-5" and sell everyone who will be over their primes by then and acquiring new talent so you can compete when you plan to compete.

 

Sitting on your rear end, waiting for Godot or divine intervention does not work. Gotta have a plan and execute it.

[nicksaviking]

Listen, no one is saying that this is a playoff team as is. No one is saying that the first six weeks of the season didn't matter. It does. But so do that last 65 games. Add some pitching, and they may not be all that far from being much improved and contending. Not this year, but next year, if certain things happen.

 

Also, I 100% agree that the Twins should be going after high-ceiling pitching prospects in any trades... the question is whether or not teams are even making those types of talents available. That's the question. If they could get Dylan Bundy from the Orioles, or Jameson Taillon or Gerrit Cole from the Pirates, they would.

I think this is part of the issue in deviding everyone on this board in regards to the talent the Twins got for Liriano and may get for other players. No one expects those kinds of players, but high upside does not necessarily mean high ranking. A team may have a pitcher ranked 15th in the system pitching in AAA and ready to contribute. The 16th player in their system may be in A ball, very raw, but with strikeout potential. It's a tough decision, but I want the A baller.

[twinswon1991]

Here is the point:the 2011 team was awful. Not enough was done before the 2012 season to improve it enough to be a contender. The 2012 team is awful. So you got to fix it. If you sit on your rear end and do nothing, it is not going to fix itself. That's why Ryan should be on the phone trying to get new players here.Or, you can say "we cannot compete in 2013 and look towards 2014-5" and sell everyone who will be over their primes by then and acquiring new talent so you can compete when you plan to compete.Sitting on your rear end, waiting for Godot or divine intervention does not work. Gotta have a plan and execute it.

Exactly right. It appears the FO has no plan or direction. Being stuck between rebuilding and mediocre is the worst place for a sports team to be.

[Paul]

This is off point but, the voices in my head are telling me to mention it. The picture in this article is perfect for a caption contest.

 

I'll start it off. "Jesus H. Christ Terry. None of these fockers can pitch! Please. Quit playing with your ball and got me some pitchers!"

[DAM DC Twins Fans]

Should the Twins trade Morneau, Span, Revere or Willingham--absolutely if they can get a top-notch pitching prospect. I doubt teams will give them up for 2 guys with concussion histories, an OF with no arm, or an OF who should be a DH. These are the Twins top 4 players--but they are not all-stars. I love Span but not sure he could bring a top prospect.

 

There is no need to make a trade just to make a trade. Stick to your guns--get value for one of these guys or wait till off-season. In the meantime, play Parmalee to see whether he can play 1B everyday.

[nokomismod]

I see what the Twins did before this season as positive (Carrol, Willingham, Doumit, and Burton). After the lousy start, we are seeing what we hoped for (better defense, decent offensive production, improved bullpen, and bad starting pitching).

I don't see a reason for the negativity surrounding the Liriano trade personally. I think it's a miracle that we got two guys that could contribute after seeing how up and down this guy has been for the past 5 years.

As far as more trades go, I don't see anything until Pavano and Capps come back and then hopefully we can get something for them.