Pohlad-Ryan Disagreement?

[alarp33]

 

I just think it was a classless move by Jim Pohlad to do it right now, in the middle of the season. Wait until after the WS, give TR notice, let him resign, and move on. He was here for 16 years, whats another 3 months??!!

 

He was here for more like 21 years... and your point still doesn't make any sense.  They should potentially willfully put themselves behind the 8ball in hiring a new person to lead the entire organization, so they can string Terry around for another 3 months.  That would've been brilliant

[Mike Sixel]

Again, how is getting rid of bad, expensive, players bad?

[Jham]

 

Besides the losing and the unmet expectations (promises?), the contract decisions by Ryan (and maybe there were more!) was reason enough to fire Ryan. The extension for Hughes will hamstring the Twins for three years. Extending Pelfrey--egads.  Plouffe? and now Park--constipating the Twins given the Mauer contract and the hopes for Sano. Despite all of the misfortunes this season Ryan is quoted (in an interview) "...figure [this]...out".  Yikes!

 

I can see several more seasons of 90+ losses while young guys are tested at the MLB level to try and see who actually "is the solution".

I get firing for all the losses and differences in opinion on the future of the organization.  I'm not mad about the signings.  Hughes was the most puzzling, and hardest to defend.  I won't try.  Pelfrey pitched decently enough last year for an insurance policy.  Plouffe was arb eligible and WASN'T extended.  Park is a low risk flyer.  I'm not giving up on that, and won't call it a large mistake if he never plays.  4 years of Park lottery for the cost of 1 year of Hughes or Lasco.  He also perhaps got a decent return for Hermann, whoever he traded for Nunez, Esco for a month Liriano (who should have arguably been extended instead of traded), and signed both Perkins and Dozier to team friendly deals that don't hamstring the organization if they got hurt and never played again.  Thome and Willingham were nice signings.  Abad and Kintzler would look a lot better if Jepsen, May and Perk pitched close to last year.  
My biggest criticism is the lack of authoritative movement with prospects.  Figure out if they're untouchable, and if they're not, they're expendable.  If they run out of options and they're not a utility guy, they probably should have been traded while they had value.  See Arcia, Santana, Vargas, and Polanco most of which could have brought a decent return if paired or bundled with a useful veteran without hurting the organization's current strength at all.

[alarp33]

 

Park is a low risk flyer.  I'm not giving up on that, and won't call it a large mistake if he never plays.  4 years of Park lottery for the cost of 1 year of Hughes or Lasco.  

 

Park led to potentially alienating your most important bat of the future by moving him to RF.  Also his contract was actually >$25 million, the Pohlad's count the posting fee, you should too.  What was it, the 3rd highest free agent signing in team history behind Santana and Nolasco?

 

Low risk?

[Jham]

 

Park led to potentially alienating your most important bat of the future by moving him to RF.  Also his contract was actually >$25 million, the Pohlad's count the posting fee, you should too.  What was it, the 3rd highest free agent signing in team history behind Santana and Nolasco?

 

Low risk?

 

I'm not sure we expected to win the posting fee.  But once it's won it's won.  I'm willing to see more than half of 1 season (half of which was pretty good) before I call it a firable error.  

And people need to stop making excuses for Sano.  Tons of young players are moved around and continue to mash.  Cab, Thome, Braun, Albert, etc.  Sorry if I'm not willing to put 1 unproven player's ego ahead of the entire team.  I don't think that's good precedent, and if he's that fragile, that a move clearly made to try to help the team win that was abandoned when it didn't work out only to see him play a pretty shakey 3rd... Play that game.  We did that with Mauer, and a lot of good that did us.  

To be clear, I'm not against special treatment for special talents, but I think the Sano hype has to stop.  It's hurting him.  There's posters who refuse to question his eating, his workouts, his attitude, and his surrounding crew despite numerous expressed concerns.  

 

In short, is $25 mil a lot for 4 years of a player with 30-40 HR potential in his prime?  Not really.  I never said it was a cheap risk anyway, although I'm not sure it's that expensive.  Things you pay for in the open market: Power arms (Ks) and power bats (OPS).  There's no shortcut on those, you take your shots when you get them, which is why many still defend Denarded for Meyer even though it officially didn't work out.

Were we depending on Park for anything?  Not a thing.  He's in AAA, we don't miss him.  So yeah, I'd call that low risk.  Banking the entire future of the franchise on a player who has given indications that he may not hit .250 most years and another who's swing probably won't be fixed until his main attribute has declined seems more high risk than signing a kid with 100 HR in 2 years on a flyer.  Anyway, I'm not mad at that signing like I was about Hughes.

 

 

[Mike Sixel]

How does what a poster on the internet says hurt Sano? Just curious.

 

You don't think they thought Park would be in the majors this year?

 

Because someone is in AAA, no one expected him to be in the majors?

[alarp33]

 

 

Were we depending on Park for anything?  Not a thing.  He's in AAA, we don't miss him.  So yeah, I'd call that low risk.  Banking the entire future of the franchise on a player who has given indications that he may not hit .250 most years and another who's swing probably won't be fixed until his main attribute has declined seems more high risk than signing a kid with 100 HR in 2 years on a flyer.  Anyway, I'm not mad at that signing like I was about Hughes.

 

 

Yeah I mean the team is only 33-59... who cares that the player slated into the 5 spot in the lineup and caused a major lineup shuffle so happens to not be in the major leagues. Low risk, whats the worst that can happen with the 3rd most expensive FA in team history. It's not like they lost 70 of their first 92 games.  Am I right???? 

 

*Also, at what age does Byung Ho Park stop being a "kid".  He's only older than 19 of the 25 players on the current roster at age 30

[Jham]

 

Yeah I mean the team is only 33-59... who cares that the player slated into the 5 spot in the lineup and caused a major lineup shuffle so happens to not be in the major leagues. Low risk, whats the worst that can happen with the 3rd most expensive FA in team history. It's not like they lost 70 of their first 92 games.  Am I right???? 

 

*Also, at what age does Byung Ho Park stop being a "kid".  He's only older than 19 of the 25 players on the current roster at age 30

I guess we can ignore that Park was pretty good for much of that stretch.  So if by playing well he forced a line up shuffle...  You can believe that Sano would be winning a gold glove at 3rd while leading the team to the playoffs and winning a triple crown if you'd like (see I can be sarcastic and exaggerate too), or you can keep arguing for no reason.  Park is in AAA after what 1/3 of 1 year part of which was promising?  Are you giving up on Park?  Can we see him in September first?  Out of all the things that have led to this dismal year I would think singling out Park is ill-conceived.  We'll just disagree.  

I don't think I called Park a kid, I think I said he's in his prime...  A little adjustment to the league, he could still have some $6 mil/yr usefulness.  If not, I won't fault the team for being aggressive.  

 

Even if we consider Park an egregious error and not a gamble, I don't think it's fair to judge anyone based solely on their mistakes.  Ryan showed restraint at least year's deadline, which probably served us well.  He made some splashy signings in order to avoid years of Deduno and Albers.  

[Otto von Ballpark]

I am not sure I follow this line of defense of TR. He wasn't employed to make moves that looked reasonable, he was employed to make successful moves.

 

I couldn't care less that most observers thought Park's deal, or Nolasco's deal, etc., was around the market rate. (If any of those moves hadn't been around the market rate, they would have been grounds for immediate dismissal, no?). TR just didn't make enough successful moves, which is the standard that MLB GMs are generally held to.

[jimmer]

Oh please, putting a man of Sano's size in the OF, in addition to having zero history of playing OF, was ridiculous.  Expecting him to adapt and play well out there was a foul's folly. That blunder is not on Sano. That's not making an excuse for Sano, it's just the truth.

 

 

[TheLeviathan]

 

Even if we consider Park an egregious error and not a gamble, I don't think it's fair to judge anyone based solely on their mistakes.  Ryan showed restraint at least year's deadline, which probably served us well.  He made some splashy signings in order to avoid years of Deduno and Albers.  

 

No, but we should judge them by the sum of their actions, good and bad.  Unfortunately, things have been trending "bad" by and large from drafting, roster decisions, free agent signings, and on and on.

[alarp33]

Defending TR a day after even the Pohlad's, the owners who's greatest fault may be loyalty, decided enough was enough is odd timing.  

 

Using a 30 year old DH who is currently in AAA as evidence that TR had a good off-season, is, well I don't know.. .

[jokin]

 

When the wheels come off... Those in position of responsibility are forced to look at it.

You'd be amazed how quickly the normally opinionless suddenly have opinions when they look at the wheels off.

Quite normal for disagreements to arise in this scenario.

 

"How quickly?" This organization has been riding on the rims for 6 years now. The Pohlads didn't care too much about the condition of the vehicle and the great loss in horse power over this decade while they were collecting the big bucks from the Target Field cash cow. But now, what with US Bank Stadium now becoming the center of the Twins Cities sports universe, the season ticket/suite base is drying up for the Twins. Time to do something significant to make the product relevant again.

 

[alskntwnsfn]

 

That is exactly what I thought and I'm most afraid of.

 

Seeing as Pohlad isn't exactly in tune with the baseball side of things, I'm not sure how he had a different idea how to improve the product.

I hope it's not about money, the first thing that came to my mind was Ryan wanted eat money to move vets and Pohlad doesn't want to.

 

I'm too lazy to look it up, but have the Twins ever eaten a significant amount of money on a contract? I highly doubt TR's firing is about the manager. The timing also makes it seem like its about something surrounding trading philosophy given that the announcement comes less than two weeks before the trade deadline. That said, if any of us were in Jim Pohlad's shoes, I doubt we'd have the stomach to write a huge check to cover a manager's mistakes, then entrust that same person to undo the mess they made. Why it took this long to recognize the mess is the bigger issue. 

 

 

[old nurse]

 

Too many conspiracy theories here.

 

wins stunk this year.  Twins had to fire someone.  The owner likes Moliter and doesn't want a coaching carousel, so Ryan is gone while Moliter stays.

 

Pretty simple.  

That would be a valid theory except GMs like their own guys as managers.  Just ask Dale Sveum. Bud Black was gone after 1 year with a new GM.

[wsnydes]

 

I'm too lazy to look it up, but have the Twins ever eaten a significant amount of money on a contract? I highly doubt TR's firing is about the manager. The timing also makes it seem like its about something surrounding trading philosophy given that the announcement comes less than two weeks before the trade deadline. That said, if any of us were in Jim Pohlad's shoes, I doubt we'd have the stomach to write a huge check to cover a manager's mistakes, then entrust that same person to undo the mess they made. Why it took this long to recognize the mess is the bigger issue. 

Where I would disagree is that if you're the owner, you're on the hook for the entire contract if that player stays on the team regardless of performance.  At least if you move him and eat some of the contract, you're cutting your losses and getting something in return.  It sucks to keep paying a guy that isn't on your roster, but at least you aren't paying all of it.

[alskntwnsfn]

 

Where I would disagree is that if you're the owner, you're on the hook for the entire contract if that player stays on the team regardless of performance.  At least if you move him and eat some of the contract, you're cutting your losses and getting something in return.  It sucks to keep paying a guy that isn't on your roster, but at least you aren't paying all of it.

 

I'd like to think that I'd be smart enough to see it for what it is... a sunk cost. So, I agree with you, but it's still a tough call to make as an owner. My point was more about not entrusting the same guy who made the mess to clean it up. 

[diehardtwinsfan]

You'll see soon enough if the sunk cost side of things was a Ryan or Pohlad thing, because yes, by all means they should be eating some of Nolasco to get rid of him, and if they aren't getting a decent offer for Santana, they should be eating some of that too (though I'd have no issue keeping Ervin)...  But I digress...

 

Are we seriously slamming Ryan for Park?  I don't know if Park will work out or not, but we all knew there would be a learning curve here, and no one should be complaining about adding cheap talent.  BTW, Park has an .864 OPS (SSS I know) in AAA at the moment after taking some time off to rest an injured hand.  This included his bad start.  I'm not going to fault TR for making those types of moves.  Those are the types of moves we've all asked him to make, so we don't get trash him when it doesn't work (they do fail, all the time I might add). 

[Mike Sixel]

 

You'll see soon enough if the sunk cost side of things was a Ryan or Pohlad thing, because yes, by all means they should be eating some of Nolasco to get rid of him, and if they aren't getting a decent offer for Santana, they should be eating some of that too (though I'd have no issue keeping Ervin)...  But I digress...

 

Are we seriously slamming Ryan for Park?  I don't know if Park will work out or not, but we all knew there would be a learning curve here, and no one should be complaining about adding cheap talent.  BTW, Park has an .864 OPS (SSS I know) in AAA at the moment after taking some time off to rest an injured hand.  This included his bad start.  I'm not going to fault TR for making those types of moves.  Those are the types of moves we've all asked him to make, so we don't get trash him when it doesn't work (they do fail, all the time I might add). 

 

In isolation, signing Park may not be bad (but signing a 29/30 yo unproven player to a four year deal, when your team has Plouffe, Mauer, Sano, Vargas, Arcia, ABWIII and Palka......well...who knows).

 

In deciding to then not deal Plouffe, and putting Sano in the OF....well, that's not good. You need to look at the context of the move. Out of context, it looks like a great idea for most any move to add talent, but in context, that isn't always true. There are only 25 spots on the active roster, and 40 spots ovearall. There is only so much budget. So, I'm not sure signing Park was a good idea, in context of the Twins.

[jimmer]

 

I am not sure I follow this line of defense of TR. He wasn't employed to make moves that looked reasonable, he was employed to make successful moves.

I couldn't care less that most observers thought Park's deal, or Nolasco's deal, etc., was around the market rate. (If any of those moves hadn't been around the market rate, they would have been grounds for immediate dismissal, no?). TR just didn't make enough successful moves, which is the standard that MLB GMs are generally held to.

For me, while tapping into the international market is a good thing, getting yet another 1B/DH type for this team (Park), was poor roster construction.  Even if it worked out, which was questionable considering all his Ks in a league that's mostly like AA,, we didn't need more 1B/DH types on this team. And it was the start of the moving on Sano to OF.  The decision to get him was slammed way before his performance at the major league level because of those reasons.

[jokin]

 

 

Are we seriously slamming Ryan for Park? 

 

Yes. While with the Twins he had an OPS+ of 58 and an OPS of .528 against power pitchers. Park was signed nearing the age of 30 to a team chock full of lower-to-mid 20s DH/1B types who will play for the minimum for years to come. If Ryan wanted to make a splash in the offseason, why didn't he fill the actual need at SS and sign Desmond? If he wanted to go international, why didn't he sign Abreu when the Twins needed a DH/1B, or Aldemys Diaz, much younger guys with talent from a league that translates well to MLB level of play. Let's face facts, Ryan screwed the pooch on this one.

[Platoon]

I am leaning towards the power struggle thing. I have always heard Molitor was Pohlads guy. I think Gardy knew that, and it's why he didn't want Molitor in the dugout.

[jimmer]

 

Park is a lottery ticket that the Twins were hoping to hook some home run power with. Honestly I don't think they expected to win the posting thing with his former KBO team or for him to struggle as much with the transition. He has some pop and can hit a mistake breaking ball.

I'm not totally down on or unsold that Park can still be a contributor to the Twins at the major league level. Even though he is an older guy, experience wise and the transition to MLB it is all a huge jump and change for BY Park.

I think and seem to hear that Park works hard especially at hitting in the cage. It is not a question of work ethic or trying and in fact I think if first base would open up for him Park would have a good shot at becoming a better first basebmen than Joe Mauer at least in the field. He will never be the hitter Mauer is but he can be a better fielding first basemen. 

Mauer is an extremely good fielding 1B.  Park would have to get much, much better to get to Mauer's level on defense.

[Pius Jefferson]

If there was disagreement in the future direction what if it's not Jim Pohlad but his kids telling him the team needs to move into the 21st century? 

[wsnydes]

 

I'd like to think that I'd be smart enough to see it for what it is... a sunk cost. So, I agree with you, but it's still a tough call to make as an owner. My point was more about not entrusting the same guy who made the mess to clean it up. 

It doesn't just have to be sunk cost either.  Trading good veterans to bring in youth is the same thing, just the opposite side of things.  If chipping in a few dollars brings more in return for players, that could be a wise investment.  

 

It sucks to eat money on a bad investment, but it sucks a lot more to continue to ride that poor investment into the ground and loose even more.  A good businessperson will cut their losses without thinking too much about it.  Admitting failure and moving on from it is a sign of someone that knows what they're doing.  Good GM's have deals go sour on them too.  It's how they deal with it that separates them from the bad GM's.

[jokin]

 

 

For me, while tapping into the international market is a good thing, getting yet another 1B/DH type for this team (Park), was poor roster construction.  Even if it worked out, which was questionable considering all his Ks in a league that's mostly like AA,, we didn't need more 1B/DH types on this team. And it was the start of the moving on Sano to OF.  The decision to get him was slammed way before his performance at the major league level because of those reasons.

 

Darn right.     That up-front money to Park in first-year salary plus the KBL posting fee (~$16M)  should have been properly allocated on specific areas of need- needs that Ryan himself had identified as top offseason priorities. The Park signing was head-scratching then, it's head-scratching now. (I still think that DSP and the marketing department helped push/not discourage TR from making the original bid to KBL to get the negotiating rights)- (thus forcing Terry to follow up that bad move and then make the ill-conceived decision to move Sano to RF- one disastrous decision compounded into another).

[Riverbrian]

"How quickly?" This organization has been riding on the rims for 6 years now. The Pohlads didn't care too much about the condition of the vehicle and the great loss in horse power over this decade while they were collecting the big bucks from the Target Field cash cow. But now, what with US Bank Stadium now becoming the center of the Twins Cities sports universe, the season ticket/suite base is drying up for the Twins. Time to do something significant to make the product relevant again.

Perhaps expectation was better managed in the years before.

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

In isolation, signing Park may not be bad (but signing a 29/30 yo unproven player to a four year deal, when your team has Plouffe, Mauer, Sano, Vargas, Arcia, ABWIII and Palka......well...who knows).

 

In deciding to then not deal Plouffe, and putting Sano in the OF....well, that's not good. You need to look at the context of the move. Out of context, it looks like a great idea for most any move to add talent, but in context, that isn't always true. There are only 25 spots on the active roster, and 40 spots ovearall. There is only so much budget. So, I'm not sure signing Park was a good idea, in context of the Twins.

 

I won't argue Plouffe with you.  I expected them to actively try and trade him, and based on MLBTR this offseason, teams did inquire.  I'm not sure if the Twins told them no, or imply weren't interested in parting with Trevor as the return was going to be low.  A lot of us hoped to get a decent catcher for him.  That wasn't going to happen based on what Freese signed for and a much better 3B was traded for.  It's easy to say in hindsight that they should have dumped him, especially given the season he's had to date, but a .750 OPS is above league average and 22 HRs to go with it is not a bad component in the lineup.  I think my biggest problem is that Plouffe would have been the first guy I was moving.  He'd still get some occasional 3B, but I'd have put him in RF a bit more than I would Sano.  Mauer is another one that would have found some PT out there.

[nicksaviking]

Yes. While with the Twins he had an OPS+ of 58 and an OPS of .528 against power pitchers. Park was signed nearing the age of 30 to a team chock full of lower-to-mid 20s DH/1B types who will play for the minimum for years to come. If Ryan wanted to make a splash in the offseason, why didn't he fill the actual need at SS and sign Desmond? If he wanted to go international, why didn't he sign Abreu when the Twins needed a DH/1B, or Aldemys Diaz, much younger guys with talent from a league that translates well to MLB level of play. Let's face facts, Ryan screwed the pooch on this one.

Desmond isn't a SS anymore, he wouldn't have filled that hole which is currently filled by the Twins lone All Star and best player. Also, he would have cost Kiraloff.

 

I liked the Park signing, still do, he's very cheap. I just didn't like that the Twins didn't move Plouffe and/or tell Mauer that he was either going to play RF or ride pine instead of the poor Sano decision.

[Jham]

 

Defending TR a day after even the Pohlad's, the owners who's greatest fault may be loyalty, decided enough was enough is odd timing.  

 

Using a 30 year old DH who is currently in AAA as evidence that TR had a good off-season, is, well I don't know.. .

Who said he had a good off season?  I responded to a simple post bashing the Park signing, the Hughes extension, the Plouffe arbitration and the Pelfrey re-sign.  I said I agreed on Hughes, thought Plouffe was a no-brainer if he couldn't be traded for value, disagreed that Pelfrey was a bad re-sign, and said it was too early on Park.  Why are you inventing things?  You've got your wish, Ryan is gone.  I think my defending Ryan by asking posters to at least be fair says less about me than your bashing the guy after he just got fired says about you.  Let it go buddy!

For the record, I don't think I've been defending Ryan.  I'm about the only one questioning the Ryan premise that Buxton, Kep, Sano, and JO are immovable pillars.  I more challenge the posters who bash Ryan yet defend this core that Ryan has also decided to build around.  How can you agree so whole-heartedly on the core, but deplore every single other action a guy makes?  If your main difference of opinion with TR was Park, then he probably didn't deserve to be fired.  There's a whole lot of moves that didn't work out, some that did, some opportunities missed, and some bullets dodged.  Same as any GM.  Is the core solid?  Is the premise broken?  Is it just a matter of waiting a year or two, or are the players we built around not as good as we thought?  To me, I'm skeptical that the core is good enough.  I'd consider a full rebuild while the super-prospects have value.  If they are that good, did Ryan do that poor of a job or was he just shuffling the deck while waiting for his aces?  I'm skeptical, but i'd have still waited a year before giving up on the core.  There's plenty reason enough to let Ryan go based on the teams' records over the past 5 years alone.  If you believe the core is still solid, that's an argument for him staying.  That's it.  Is that so unreasonable?