Castile shooting, police violence, race, etc side discussion

[ashbury]

When in doubt, turn to Rollins for clarity . . .

 

http://www.laweekly.com/music/henry-rollins-white-america-couldnt-handle-what-black-america-deals-with-every-day-7134994

The closest he comes there to a prescription for constructive change is to be an infinitely fantastic person every single day. Since I'm already there, where are the rainbows and unicorns I've been promised?

[Brock Beauchamp]

This whole conversation wouldn't be happening to the degree it is without blm. Life I've said before my wife is mixed, she line the alm more.... Mostly imo because she sees the negative clips and reads her evangelical Facebook feed. She also doesn't feel racism in her life. She thinks all lives should be equal, and blm choose bad wording for the slogan.

I do think poverty plays a larger part in this than race by itself. A lot of positive changes can be put in place to help the situation. Let's be better. I hope this conversion evolves into a discussion on improving people lives in poverty past simple handouts. That doesn't help, it just keeps people alive. That shouldn't be the goal. A ****ty minimum wage job at a fast food place or big box store isn't a great consolation prize either. Again, let's be better (and not point fingers at those in those shirty situationsh.

First and foremost, poverty is the root of ethnic minority problems in this country. What irks me is that people refuse to admit racism had caused the poverty problem.

 

We need to fix both problems. But both problems involve 40+ years of multi-generational retooling of American society.

 

In the meantime, there are many small things we can do to make things better. And that, imo, is the goal of BLM.

[Badsmerf]

Now this gun fight in baton rouge.... The cracks are showing.

[Otto von Ballpark]

Update: Police officer charged in fatal shooting of Philando Castile

 

http://www.startribune.com/ramsey-county-attorney-choi-to-announce-update-in-castile-shooting/401484635/

[Vanimal46]

Glad we're seeing some closure to this horrific story. 

[Craig Arko]

 

Glad we're seeing some closure to this horrific story. 

I'll be most interested to see how the union handles this.

[Mike Sixel]

 

I'll be most interested to see how the union handles this.

 

This is a duplicate post

[Craig Arko]

 

This is a duplicate post

Yessir. I blame mad cow.

 

But I've long considered the Police Unions and the wagon-circling to be part of the problem.

[jimmer]

Here's Roddy White saying a cop was acting in a racist way towards him on a traffic stop, because he was touching his gun.

 

http://www.sportingnews.com/nfl/news/roddy-white-police-stop-cop-gun-ticket-atlanta-falcons/r6hk3rsphrmp1j7ty2da6xned

 

[Mr. Brooks]

2nd degree manslaughter?

Average time served with good time is less than 3 years.

Total cop out, no pun intended.

How is this manslaughter and not murder?

The specifics given by the prosecutor do not describe manslaughter at all, they describe 2nd degree murder.

 

2nd degree manslaughter is not knowing what's on the other side of the deer you are shooting and accidentally killing another hunter.

[TheLeviathan]

2nd degree manslaughter?

Average time served with good time is less than 3 years.

Total cop out, no pun intended.

How is this manslaughter and not murder?

The specifics given by the prosecutor do not describe manslaughter at all, they describe 2nd degree murder.

2nd degree manslaughter is not knowing what's on the other side of the deer you are shooting and accidentally killing another hunter.

The conversation on Barrerio had much to do with this. Reminds me of the ridiculous mistake the Zimmerman prosecution made too.

[Willihammer]

I'm guessing the charge is due to the question around whether Yanez saw Castille holding an object before he shot him. I believe his training would have allowed him to shoot Castille if he had an eyeball on a weapon in Castille's hand but not if he didn't see anything. Yanez gave conflicting reports on weather he saw an object.

[TheLeviathan]

The issue seems to be that it's hard to convict someone of an accidental death when then unloaded their gun into the person 7 times.  Friedman on Barrerrio is worth a listen from yesterday.  

 

I'd be curious if anyone has a different take on it, but his argument was pretty convincing given the wording of the statute.  

[Mr. Brooks]

I'm guessing the charge is due to the question around whether Yanez saw Castille holding an object before he shot him. I believe his training would have allowed him to shoot Castille if he had an eyeball on a weapon in Castille's hand but not if he didn't see anything. Yanez gave conflicting reports on weather he saw an object.

If Castile had a gun in his hand then the shooting would have been justified.

As described by the prosecutor, 2nd degree murder fits better.

I don't see any scenario where 2nd degree manslaughter fits.

 

This wasn't recklessness that accidentally caused a death. The officer knew full well that Castile would die when he shot him 7 times.

That distinction (IMO, I'm no lawyer) makes it either justified or murder, manslaughter is just laughable.

[Willihammer]

Man 2 seems like an inappropriate charge but I'm assuming the prosecutor settled on it because he believes he has the best shot of convicting with that charge. One reason he might chose Man 2 over murder (I'm speculating obviously, I'm no lawyer either) is because it would be difficult to prove that Officer Yanez didn't have a reason to believe his life was in danger. If he had reason to believe his life was in danger then he is allowed to shoot. I don't know if "believing" he saw a weapon in Castille's hand would be enough to meet that criteria, or even if he could defend that belief owing to the fact that Yanez gave conflicting accounts about what he saw.

[PseudoSABR]

Murder can be down graded to manslaughter upon adequate provocation, at least at common law.  And if there's a reasonable mistake about provocation, manslaughter might also fly.   I think the charge is political, as typically, prosecutors will charge murder, and let the jury decide whether it's manslaughter or not.  There must have been some belief that a jury would find him guilty of the murder charge, so they took that decision out of their hands. 

 

There needs to be an independent prosecution office for all law enforcement crimes.  

[TheLeviathan]

 

Murder can be down graded to manslaughter upon adequate provocation, at least at common law.  And if there's a reasonable mistake about provocation, manslaughter might also fly.   I think the charge is political, as typically, prosecutors will charge murder, and let the jury decide whether it's manslaughter or not.  There must have been some belief that a jury would find him guilty of the murder charge, so they took that decision out of their hands. 

 

There needs to be an independent prosecution office for all law enforcement crimes.  

 

Is that how it works in Minnesota?  If memory serves, the Zimmerman case was a mess precisely because they couldn't downgrade the charge from their initial charge.  

 

I'm surprised this wasn't Manslaughter 1, but I agree, it seems to be lipservice rather than an actual attempt at justice.  And this case seems like as clear cut a case as possible for this issue and here we sit, already doubting the results with good reason.

[nicksaviking]

 

Man 2 seems like an inappropriate charge but I'm assuming the prosecutor settled on it because he believes he has the best shot of convicting with that charge. One reason he might chose Man 2 over murder (I'm speculating obviously, I'm no lawyer either) is because it would be difficult to prove that Officer Yanez didn't have a reason to believe his life was in danger. If he had reason to believe his life was in danger then he is allowed to shoot.

 

I agree. The prosecutor may be holding his or her nose simply because they've already seen what happens when the officer doesn't get convicted. The social unrest is just as bad as after the original shooting. There is no doubt there are going to be some jury members who will have a hard time giving a police officer a hard sentence particularly if his union publicly backs him.

[PseudoSABR]

 

Is that how it works in Minnesota?  If memory serves, the Zimmerman case was a mess precisely because they couldn't downgrade the charge from their initial charge.  

 

I'm surprised this wasn't Manslaughter 1, but I agree, it seems to be lipservice rather than an actual attempt at justice.  And this case seems like as clear cut a case as possible for this issue and here we sit, already doubting the results with good reason.

I don't know about Minnesota.  In Arizona (for instance), the jury can convict on the charged crime or any "lesser-included" crime.  

 

I'll glance at the Minnesota statutes and case law, and see if I can quickly figure it out.  

 

Edit:

 

"Second-degree culpable negligence manslaughter is a lesser-included offense of first-degree premeditated murder."  State v. Penkaty, 708 N.W.2d 185 (Minn. 2006)   Although, it looks like there, the defense requested the manslaughter instruction, so I don't know if the prosecution can make the request...

[Mr. Brooks]

Man 2 seems like an inappropriate charge but I'm assuming the prosecutor settled on it because he believes he has the best shot of convicting with that charge. One reason he might chose Man 2 over murder (I'm speculating obviously, I'm no lawyer either) is because it would be difficult to prove that Officer Yanez didn't have a reason to believe his life was in danger. If he had reason to believe his life was in danger then he is allowed to shoot. I don't know if "believing" he saw a weapon in Castille's hand would be enough to meet that criteria, or even if he could defend that belief owing to the fact that Yanez gave conflicting accounts about what he saw.

If they can't prove a reasonable person wouldn't fear for their life, then it's not guilty no matter what the charge is.

 

In my opinion, they went with the man 2 charge to put on a show, and appease public unrest.

Once again, there is no real accountability for police.

With no prior record, and plenty of character witnesses, there is a pretty good chance this cop could end up serving less than a year, if any.

[Craig Arko]

Another thing; the jury selection for this will be fascinating.

[Brock Beauchamp]

One thing to keep in mind is that we don't understand law. What we colloquially consider "manslaughter" may not be the definition of the crime in any particular state. All states draft unique laws for not only what constitutes manslaughter but the classification of 1, 2, 3, etc.

 

Some charges can slide downward, others than not. Law is a complicated thing and even an attorney can't really tell you Minnesota law if they only practice in, say, Missouri. The terminology and classifications are likely different.

[Brock Beauchamp]

With that said, I plan to ask my wife about it tonight. I'm sure she knows why this was done, as she clerked several murder trials in the past.

[TheLeviathan]

 

With that said, I plan to ask my wife about it tonight. I'm sure she knows why this was done, as she clerked several murder trials in the past.

 

My understanding was based on a pretty blistering assault on the charge by a Minnesota defense law staple.  

 

He read the statute on the radio and detailed past cases in which convictions have occurred.  For things like "bear trap in the woods accidently killed someone"  or "had a gun in his pocket that went off in a crowded room".

 

This doesn't seem to be in that realm of a crime.  Assuming he's accurate in his description.

[ashbury]

With that said, I plan to ask my wife about it tonight. I'm sure she knows why this was done, as she clerked several murder trials in the past.

I know an estate planning lawyer, in case you think he could help.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Bah, my wife refuses to even read about it because the situation is so depressing.

 

Some help she is.