What About - Trade Sano, Keep Plouffe?

[tobi0040]

I have this thing about defense where I don't like our players to have the defense capability barometer of 'not the worst in his league at his position'. I like the bar a bit higher than that.

I think it is all relative. He won't be the worst 3B but he likely will be in RF. And he will have more a value at 3B

[tobi0040]

Funny, because this contracts everything Mientkiewicz has said about Sano.

 

I was in favor of Mientkiewicz getting the managerial job in the first place, but the way every single one of these young guys are struggling is more evidence to me that he should have been given the job and hopefully will get the job soon.

They simply cannot give any key role to a current member of the org.

[jokin]

 

Are you judging his minor league defense by fielding %?

 

I don't know.  He looks very good when coming in on slow rollers, but his lateral is bad, IMO.  I think when even the Twins are going out of their way not to play him there, that tells us something.  Look how long it took them to come to the conclusion with Plouffe, Santana, Casilla and Dozier about shortstop. 

LOL

 

 

I saw him play a few times in Chatty, once in person. Going to his right, he was terrific, tracking down spinning foul pop flies both in front of him and behind him. And he was great getting to grounders and hot smashes in foul territory, setting himself and throwing rockets to 1st or 2nd. And really, 3B is the one IF position where supreme lateral movement beyond the first step and a half is usually de minimus relative to the other guys.

 

And also really, the Twins' staff have destroyed their credibility on their assessment and development and implementation of Sano's role in the lineup vis a vis Plouffe just about 6 ways from Sunday. To not even try him out there for a month, with no backup Plan B in place, tells me more than something about a club that didn't even take care enough to plan for all potential contingencies to ensure a smooth transition for a potential transcendent-type player.

 

 

[jimmer]

 

LOL

 

 

I saw whim play a few times in Chatty, once in person. Going to his right, he was terrific, tracking down spinning pop flies both in front of him and behind him. And he was great getting to grounders and hot smashes in foul territory, setting himself and throwing rockets to 1st or 2nd. And really, 3B is the one IF position where supreme lateral movement beyond the first step and a half is usually de minimus relative to the other guys.

 

And really, the Twins' staff have destroyed their credibility on their assessment and development and implementation of Sano's role in the lineup vis a vis Plouffe just about 6 ways from Sunday. To not even try him out there for a month, with no backup Plan B in place, tells me more than something about a club that didn't even take care enough to plan for all potential contingencies to ensure a smooth transition for a potential transcendent-type player.

FYI, I wasn't trying to be snarky when I asked that question.  Most fans haven't seen a ton of minor league play so I was just wondering.

 

And believe me I'm not happy with what they've done with him either, for many reasons.

[sftwinsfan]

I'm kind of in the middle on the whole Sano thing (not trading him-obviously that would be crazy).  While I think this is a mess largely of the front office's doing, I'm also less than impressed with the way Sano has handled it.  

 

If he takes anything away from this season hopefully he learns that regardless of how much talent you have, you can't just show up and succeed in the majors.  Clearly after being asked to drop some weight and being informed of playing in the OF by showing up pushing 280 lbs and not practicing playing the OF in the off-season its hard to argue that he's not giving that impression.  

 

Nobody on this team should be beyond criticism at this point.  From everything written about Mauer, Plouffe, Hughes, Dozier, Suzuki, and Perkins around here I haven't noticed any targeting of the Latino players.  If this team starts winning, attitudes (players and fans) will improve.  Wasn't it back in 2003 or 2004 or so when it got to the point where Hunter actually took a swing at Morneau in the locker room? This team may be missing that kind of get in your face type veteran leadership.  Can't image Dozier or Plouffe taking a swing at a teammate, just doesn't seem to be who they are.

[Jham]

 

Serious doubts??
You have got to be kidding me.
Most prospects his age are still learning AA, and look at the mlb numbers he's already put up!
You should be ecstatic that we actually have one of these prospects putting up numbers, and at such a young age.
Man, the expectations are crazy around here sometimes.

Yes, serious doubts.  1) his inability to hit for much average in lesser leagues, 2) apparent inability to catch up to fastballs especially up in the zone, 3) lack of organizational confidence in his ability to play 3rd (read people who've actually watched him play 3rd for a full season), 4) lack of fanbase confidence in his ability to play outfield, 5) questionable approach and ability to adjust, 6) relative lack of sustained success from other talents within the organization, 7) weight for his age, 8) rock and roll lifestyle and agent, 9) rumored to be motivated by fame and money, 10) questions about his attitude and work ethic.

Of course he is young and could still go on to have a hall of fame career.  I'm not the one piling on the expectations, I'm the one tempering them.  Like I said, I'm not advocating shopping Sano.  I just think it's ridiculous to call anyone in the entire organization untouchable.  Every single player and prospect we have has obvious flaws.  If we find a rival GM who thinks Sano is on par with Bryce Harper, a truly untouchable talent, then we should ask for their best 4 prospects and demand one be a near ready ace.  But in reality, I don't think that GM is out there.  Maybe I'm paranoid about the Twins (and this board) over-valuing its own prospects.  But the answer to "Should we trade...." should always be: "For the right price" when you have a season like we're having.  If you refuse to risk a trade that could improve the team overall because you're afraid of losing 1 potential star, well then you may as well be Terry Ryan.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

The irony of keeping Plouffe and trading Sano is that Plouffe has been pretty lackluster at third base this season. And, he still has virtually no range across his body to his right. With all the same chances, I think Sano could have done better.

[USAFChief]

This poor attitude crap is just trash being thrown out by the FO to take heat off of them.

Id say Sano has the attitude of a saint to have handled being jerked around as well as he has.

He was brought to the big leagues at 22, has been in the lineup since, and was asked to move to an easier position.

 

He didnt feel the need to put in any work at that position over the winter.

 

How has he been jerked around?

[jokin]

 

He was brought to the big leagues at 22, has been in the lineup since, and was asked to move to an easier position.

He didnt feel the need to put in any work at that position over the winter.

How has he been jerked around?

 

Played 3rd his entire professional career.

 

Body-type not suited to the OF- clearly not easier for him.

 

Getting the bad-mouthing whisper campaign alleging his bad habits sent through the media.

[Mr. Brooks]

He was brought to the big leagues at 22, has been in the lineup since, and was asked to move to an easier position.

 

He didnt feel the need to put in any work at that position over the winter.

 

How has he been jerked around?

A position he's never played in his life. That is what the minor leagues are for.

Hitting in the big leagues is hard enough at 22 when it's the only thing you have to focus on. Nevermind telling him hey by the way you play RF now kid.

 

Saying he didn't bother to put in the work is speculation at best, spurred by a reporter who has no moral character for me to trust a word he says.

 

If he really didn't put in the work, that's fair to criticize. But we don't know if that is true.

Either way, yes I call that jerking him around. He should be allowed to adjust to hitting at the toughest level in the world without learning a completely new position as well.

[Jham]

 

A position he's never played in his life. That is what the minor leagues are for.
Hitting in the big leagues is hard enough at 22 when it's the only thing you have to focus on. Nevermind telling him hey by the way you play RF now kid.

Saying he didn't bother to put in the work is speculation at best, spurred by a reporter who has no moral character for me to trust a word he says.

If he really didn't put in the work, that's fair to criticize. But we don't know if that is true.
Either way, yes I call that jerking him around. He should be allowed to adjust to hitting at the toughest level in the world without learning a completely new position as well.

You may not like Reusse or his morals, but he's earned his chops as a reporter.  If he says Sano was in Dominican Republic while the team was releasing reports that he was in Ft. Meyers shagging fly balls, I believe him.  You can say he takes his opinions too far, but he's reporting some troubling facts as well.  Lost in the argument is how a 22 yr old sophomore ball player can already be too big to play in the field.  How big is he going to be in 2 more years?  Some even speculated the move to the outfield was more about getting Sano to control his weight than anything.  How would Mr. Brooks try to reign in your 22 year old star who admits to love eating and hypothetically does not take well to criticism or coaching?  Just give in?  Maybe.  What if that doesn't work?  
 

[USAFChief]

A position he's never played in his life. That is what the minor leagues are for.

Hitting in the big leagues is hard enough at 22 when it's the only thing you have to focus on. Nevermind telling him hey by the way you play RF now kid.

Saying he didn't bother to put in the work is speculation at best, spurred by a reporter who has no moral character for me to trust a word he says.

If he really didn't put in the work, that's fair to criticize. But we don't know if that is true.

Either way, yes I call that jerking him around. He should be allowed to adjust to hitting at the toughest level in the world without learning a completely new position as well.

Like Machado? Chris Bryant? Literally thousands of players throughout history?

 

He wasn't asked to play center for the Wild. He was moved to right field.

[howeda7]

This. His D has always been over-rated. He should be traded period. Even if Sano wasn't going to play 3B, Plouffe will not be worth his salary next year. I'd rather play Polanco there at this point. 

The irony of keeping Plouffe and trading Sano is that Plouffe has been pretty lackluster at third base this season. And, he still has virtually no range across his body to his right. With all the same chances, I think Sano could have done better.

 

[Mr. Brooks]

Like Machado? Chris Bryant? Literally thousands of players throughout history?

 

He wasn't asked to play center for the Wild. He was moved to right field.

I think you exaggerate when you say thousands of players get moved to a new position that they've never played before in their first full season.

 

Machado is a decent example, except he moved over a few feet from SS to 3B. Not quite the same as moving from the infield to the outfield.

 

Bryant was moved in his second full season.

I'm not necessarily against Sano ever learning a new position. I'd rather he focus on hitting first at his age though.

[Mr. Brooks]

You may not like Reusse or his morals, but he's earned his chops as a reporter. If he says Sano was in Dominican Republic while the team was releasing reports that he was in Ft. Meyers shagging fly balls, I believe him. You can say he takes his opinions too far, but he's reporting some troubling facts as well. Lost in the argument is how a 22 yr old sophomore ball player can already be too big to play in the field. How big is he going to be in 2 more years? Some even speculated the move to the outfield was more about getting Sano to control his weight than anything. How would Mr. Brooks try to reign in your 22 year old star who admits to love eating and hypothetically does not take well to criticism or coaching? Just give in? Maybe. What if that doesn't work?

 

He admits to love eating and HYPOTHETICALLY doesn't take coaching well?

And his rock and roll lifestyle?

What on earth does that even mean?

[Mr. Brooks]

Honestly, at this point this city deserves to have this pathetic product for a long time, with some of the garbage being said about one of only actual young bright spots on the team.

 

There is literally no EVIDENCE whatsoever that Sano has any kind of attitude, coaching, conditioning or any other kind of problem at all.

A bunch of pure speculation, and some laughable personal attacks. I can't understand where all this is coming from. I know it's frustrating right now, but I still don't get it.

Criticism of on field things we can see are one thing, though I'd argue he's right on track in that regard, given his age.

 

But we have people questioning his rock and roll lifestyle ( I don't even know what that means), and the fact that he seems to have an interest in earning money!

[tobi0040]

Honestly, at this point this city deserves to have this pathetic product for a long time, with some of the garbage being said about one of only actual young bright spots on the team.

 

There is literally no EVIDENCE whatsoever that Sano has any kind of attitude, coaching, conditioning or any other kind of problem at all.

A bunch of pure speculation, and some laughable personal attacks. I can't understand where all this is coming from. I know it's frustrating right now, but I still don't get it.

Criticism of on field things we can see are one thing, though I'd argue he's right on track in that regard, given his age.

 

But we have people questioning his rock and roll lifestyle ( I don't even know what that means), and the fact that he seems to have an interest in earning money!

The Twins throwing a young player under the bus. Shocking.

 

It is really just a mis-direction. We suck and need to point the fingers at something dumb. This gets people from focusing on signing guys like Ricky Nolasco.

[TheLeviathan]

I hate this mentality that you can just toss any guy into the outfield and it should be "fine".  Technically we can put Glen Perkins in CF and it's not like asking him to play fullback for the Vikings either.  Hell, anyone want to put Kurt Suzuki in the bullpen?  No?  Then perhaps we should get rid of poor analogies like that.

 

Just because you play baseball doesn't mean you can play anywhere in baseball.  And what, if not the last few years, needs to be explained to people that the OF defense DOES matter.  Not even to mention how people operate: we like to have a role, known expectations, consistency, and to feel capable of doing what we're asked to do.  If you want me to build a freaking rocket ship tomorrow and give me directions - even if that thing won't hurt anyone if I screw it up - I'm still going to hate every second of being forced to do something I'm not comfortable with.  It will affect my life.

 

Why would Sano be any different?  And who the hell looks at that kid and thinks he's a fat guy?  He's just a big, strong dude.

 

My god this whole topic really irritates the hell out of me.

[Loosey]

 

IMO, he has the ability to be an outstanding HITTER, but to me a generational talent needs to at least be able to field his position somewhat well.  

From what I have seen he fields 3rd base pretty well.

[Pardon My Dinger]

I've been getting weird headaches when I scroll through these forums lately. 

[HitInAPinch]

 

Are you judging his minor league defense by fielding %?

 

I don't know.  He looks very good when coming in on slow rollers, but his lateral is bad, IMO.  I think when even the Twins are going out of their way not to play him there, that tells us something.  Look how long it took them to come to the conclusion with Plouffe, Santana, Casilla and Dozier about shortstop. 

I think this is a very fair assessment of Sano's defense.  From his shear size, nobody should expect more.

 

A month, or so, ago Sano was put at 3B for the day and had to field a slow roller / bunt  (don't really remember).  Bare-handed the ball and made a really sweat throw to 1st.  But it was right at him.  More recently there was a well hit ball to his left and Sano stumbled and fell.

 

IMO, Sano will never be a competent OF defensively.  Mobility will be the issue, at least it is now.

He will for sure get a few years at 3rd (are there better options after Plouffe is allowed to leave?) but in the end, Sano will most likely be a DH.  And I really hate saying that about a guy who just turned 23.

[SirLoin]

Two words.....David Ortiz

[Pardon My Dinger]

 

Two words.....David Ortiz

Those certainly are two words. 

[Jham]

 

He admits to love eating and HYPOTHETICALLY doesn't take coaching well?
And his rock and roll lifestyle?
What on earth does that even mean?

http://www.startribune.com/miguel-sano-says-he-s-joining-jay-z-s-roc-nation-agency/365310991/

I'm not saying his bad attitude is hypothetical.  I'm saying that this has been reported by others closer to the organization than me, and apparently you.  The hypothetical part was a question to you about how you would discipline him and urge him to control his weight if the reports are true.  

You've capitalized the right word: hypothetical.  As in this whole thread is hypothetical.  Instead of blindly supporting your favorite player and demanding evidence while offering no evidence of your own, you could actually address my question to you, and offer some rationale as to why you think Sano, or any Twin for that matter, should be "off the board" untouchable without even having a sense for his value on the trade market.  

Saying you wouldn't even field an offer for him is basically the same thing as saying there's no amount you wouldn't give up to snag from another team.  If an organization is as in love with him as you, why wouldn't you at least listen to what they have to offer?  My problem is not Sano's attitude, position, defense, hitting, or projection.  My problem is with realistic evaluation of talent in this organization altogether.  And if we think any member of this 11 win team is on par with or likely to be on par with Bryce Harper or Mike Trout (who is also rumored to be available) then I think we're delusional.  And if we don't look for every opportunity to compile talent, then we're likely to remain awful for years to come.  

[Mr. Brooks]

http://www.startribune.com/miguel-sano-says-he-s-joining-jay-z-s-roc-nation-agency/365310991/

 

I'm not saying his bad attitude is hypothetical. I'm saying that this has been reported by others closer to the organization than me, and apparently you. The hypothetical part was a question to you about how you would discipline him and urge him to control his weight if the reports are true.

 

You've capitalized the right word: hypothetical. As in this whole thread is hypothetical. Instead of blindly supporting your favorite player and demanding evidence while offering no evidence of your own, you could actually address my question to you, and offer some rationale as to why you think Sano, or any Twin for that matter, should be "off the board" untouchable without even having a sense for his value on the trade market.

 

Saying you wouldn't even field an offer for him is basically the same thing as saying there's no amount you wouldn't give up to snag from another team. If an organization is as in love with him as you, why wouldn't you at least listen to what they have to offer? My problem is not Sano's attitude, position, defense, hitting, or projection. My problem is with realistic evaluation of talent in this organization altogether. And if we think any member of this 11 win team is on par with or likely to be on par with Bryce Harper or Mike Trout (who is also rumored to be available) then I think we're delusional. And if we don't look for every opportunity to compile talent, then we're likely to remain awful for years to come.

Ok, I'm confused why you posted that link. Is Sano not allowed to have an agent? I don't see how this is even an issue, I honestly don't even know what you are implying by linking that article.

 

The only person I have seen report any kind of bad attitude is Reusse, and I wouldn't believe a word that slime ball reporter says.

 

Link other reports of him having a poor attitude and I would reconsiderecommend.

 

Why on earth would the burden of proof be on me? I'm not alleging anything about him one way or another, you are.

 

Sano has a very big frame. I don't consider him to have a weight problem at all. You can't just go by a number alone.

In terms of body fat ratio, I'd guess Perkins and Mauer have far more extra body fat than Sano. Why are you not asking how they should be disciplined?

 

Sano is not my favorite player, and I'm not blindly supporting him.

I choose to judge players based on their play and things I can see. This NY Post/ TMZ pure speculation garbage disgusts me, until someone has some evidence of something he's done wrong.

That goes for every player. Not just Sano, and not just Twins players.

 

I've never said anywhere that Sano or anyone else is off the table. Nobody should be, though I suspect it would be hard to find someone willing to pay the ransom it would take to move Sano.

There is a reason you almost never see that type of player traded.

Perhaps you have me confused with another poster?

I simply responded to the statement that people were starting to have doubts about him . I said nothing about him being off the table or what it would take to trade him.

[Jham]

 

Ok, I'm confused why you posted that link. Is Sano not allowed to have an agent? I don't see how this is even an issue, I honestly don't even know what you are implying by linking that article.

The only person I have seen report any kind of bad attitude is Reusse, and I wouldn't believe a word that slime ball reporter says.

Link other reports of him having a poor attitude and I would reconsiderecommend.

Why on earth would the burden of proof be on me? I'm not alleging anything about him one way or another, you are.

Sano has a very big frame. I don't consider him to have a weight problem at all. You can't just go by a number alone.
In terms of body fat ratio, I'd guess Perkins and Mauer have far more extra body fat than Sano. Why are you not asking how they should be disciplined?

Sano is not my favorite player, and I'm not blindly supporting him.
I choose to judge players based on their play and things I can see. This NY Post/ TMZ pure speculation garbage disgusts me, until someone has some evidence of something he's done wrong.
That goes for every player. Not just Sano, and not just Twins players.

I've never said anywhere that Sano or anyone else is off the table. Nobody should be, though I suspect it would be hard to find someone willing to pay the ransom it would take to move Sano.
There is a reason you almost never see that type of player traded.
Perhaps you have me confused with another poster?
I simply responded to the statement that people were starting to have doubts about him . I said nothing about him being off the table or what it would take to trade him.

I suppose this is your most balanced response.  I think your last paragraph sums up exactly what I've been saying.  No one is off limits.  The thread is about a hypothetical trade of Sano.  We both think it is unlikely someone will pay the asking price, but that if someone blew our socks off we should consider. 

Regarding his attitude, there's no burden of proof either way.  And really, there's only anecdotal accounts and speculation both directions.  Which is somewhat what this forum is for.  Regardless, potential attitude issues was 1 of 10 concerns I raised.  Every prospect is going to have some concerns.  My issue, as I've stated, are the number of posters who just say "no" to the thread topic or refuse to even answer the thread topic in their defense of Mr. Sano.  Now that you've responded to the thread topic, I see that our stances are almost identical.  So it's weird that we've had this drawn out debate.  Which makes me think we'd be darn good bar buddies.  The ability to banter about things in which you agree always makes for better tasting beer.
 

[Mr. Brooks]

I suppose this is your most balanced response. I think your last paragraph sums up exactly what I've been saying. No one is off limits. The thread is about a hypothetical trade of Sano. We both think it is unlikely someone will pay the asking price, but that if someone blew our socks off we should consider.

 

Regarding his attitude, there's no burden of proof either way. And really, there's only anecdotal accounts and speculation both directions. Which is somewhat what this forum is for. Regardless, potential attitude issues was 1 of 10 concerns I raised. Every prospect is going to have some concerns. My issue, as I've stated, are the number of posters who just say "no" to the thread topic or refuse to even answer the thread topic in their defense of Mr. Sano. Now that you've responded to the thread topic, I see that our stances are almost identical. So it's weird that we've had this drawn out debate. Which makes me think we'd be darn good bar buddies. The ability to banter about things in which you agree always makes for better tasting beer.

 

Well I find just about anyone a good bar buddy. But that doesn't mean I agree with you.

Most of those reasons you listed are complete non issues, IMO.

[Vanimal46]

 

Those certainly are two words. 

I don't even recognize you anymore with the Phil Brickma avatar.... 

[Pardon My Dinger]

 

I don't even recognize you anymore with the Phil Brickma avatar.... 

Candlelight vigil?

[diehardtwinsfan]

OK, are we seriously still debating trading Sano and keeping Plouffe?