How many consecutive losses would it take to get Molitor/Ryan fired?

[howeda7]

There's no # that will get Mollie fired in year 2. There's probably no # that will get Terry Ryan fired. However, the guy is 62, so there's probably a # that shames him into hanging it up. But I doubt he would so before the end of the season.

[howeda7]

The ballpark legislation ensures that the team won't be sold for at least another 5 years, even if they were inclined to sell.

I see everyone above Paul Molitor as the problem.  The Pohlads should fire Terry Ryan and, then, sell the team to someone who wants to put a winning product on the field.

 

[d-mac]

Hey we almost made it! Moral victories just another #TerryRyanThings

3 teams ever have made the playoffs after an 0-7 start.

Actually, 0 teams have. But that just makes your point stronger.

[h2oface]

 

2016 through 6 games:

2-3 L
2-4 L
2-4 L
3-4 L
0-7 L
3-4 L

12 runs scored, 22 runs given up. Average margin in losses, 3.66.

I believe your math is a little fuzzy.

I get 12 runs scored, 26 runs given up. Average margin in loses, (14/6) 2.33 runs per game.

I think that even supports what you are trying to say better.

 

But........ it still doesn't change that a loss is a loss is a loss.  I also feel Ryan's arch of usefulness has come and gone (years ago), and that there never has been a rebuild (something that many fans like to make up though) but a gradual restocking mixed with mediocre veteran players, and many dumpster diving signings.

[d-mac]

Can I just make a few comments about Ryan, in regard to this post and it's initial intent?

I think TR has done a he'll of a lot in his career for our favorite team. I think he is a tremendous baseball man. After a few bumps in the road early in his career, this professional scout really found his niche and put together some great Twins teams that were competitve, went on wining runs, and competed as wellong as any team in baseball...overall. Especially considering some of his initial constraints. In the world of sport, we all yearn for our team to be the champion. It is, after all, the ultimate achievement that every team strives for, and every fan roots and hopes for. But I truly believe it is misguided, as well as short sighted, to ultimately find failure in not winning the ultimate prize. It still remains true, IMO, that the contest, the competition to be the best in which we see greatness. No matter the sport, or the level of such, only ONE TEAM ever comes out on top.

As an analogy, I find it absurd to say that great QB in NFL history like Tarkenton, Marino and Fouts, to name a few, are lesser QB or lesser HOF players because they didn't win a Super Bowl. So while TR has yet to win a WS, I think to call him a poor GM because his best teams failed to win a WS is a mistake.

That being said, and despite being a long admirer and defender of his work, I think this is a make or break year for him, and the Twins organization. There is a great Blog piece on TD by D-Mac that I think everyone should read.

Despite my support for TR and his body of work, and respect for such, we are absolutely at a crossroads. I have liked many of his moves since he assumed the GM post again. And while all of his moves have not paid off...at least not yet...he has been much bolder in his actions. Do I think, at this point, he should be "urged to step down"? No. But his moves, and lack thereof, the past 2-3 years in regard to the CF and bullpen simply can't be ignored. He has gambled and lost expecting both spots to be filled by prospects promoted too early, or, hoping for fast progression.

Buxton is here, and I believe in him given time and patience. But still, haven't we been rolling this position to "whoever" the past few seasons? We've had success with inexpensive RP in the past who have paid huge dividends. But is that really what a team on the cusp of truly competing needs to push them over the edge? Please don't try to tell me that using Fien's $2+Mil plus another $5-8M for a pair of top quality RP would haven broken payroll. And when the young RP studs do make it up, hopefully soon, unless the bottom of the market just falls out, don't tell me the Twins wouldn't have trade partners.

Ultimately, with the Santana and Hughes signings, (Hughes shouldn't have been extended no matter what), the Nolasco signing became superfluous. And it's really a shame, because his contract could have been applied to a major trade or FA signing. But we need to stop dropping the "everything is wrong because of" card on one player and one move. It's just not true.

What will be ultimately deciding TR as the Twins GM is what happens this year. I respect the attitude of not giving in, of not accepting failure, or a true rebuild state of thinking. But the simpleft fact is....the Twins HAVE BEEN rebuilding. But at some point this season, with arms like Berrios, Duffey, and a slew of talented RP getting very close, with big stuff, and May stuck in the pen when he also has SP potential, the Twins may be in the envious but uncomfortable position to trade away veteran assets to make room for the future. (Yes, this may also include Plouffe to make room for Kepler) These kind of decisions/moves may determine the length and legacy of Ryan as the Twins GM.

I liked your post because you mentioned my blog! I agree with a few things, however I think you vastly overestimate Ryan's successes. He has been the "official" GM for 17 full seasons, and had a whopping 7 winning seasons, 4 playoff teams, and 1 single post season series win at the helm. All of them came when the AL Central was historically weak. For Godsakes, the Tigers lost over 110 games on multiple occaisions. An average GM should at least win close to half the time. He's only had winning seasons ~40% of the time. Even if I grant you the caveat that during his first stint the team had severe financial limitations, it's delusional to even entertain the idea he's anything more than an average GM, and thus there should be no reason for ownership to have kept him around this long.

 

But the Twins do have the resources of a median team now. He's spent an awful lot of the Pohlad's money to loose a lot of games in his second stint. I believe he spent more $ per win than any GM (I.e., least effecient) from 2011-2014. I just don't understand how that even makes since from a business perspective.

[ScrapTheNickname]

It is sad to read this. Molitor isn't going to be fired this year, no matter what. The Twins will win. I don't know how many games and neither do any of you. Too, too, too much gloom and doom. It's a freaking sport played by freaking grown men who make a monstrous amount of money. We as fans can do NOTHING to determine the outcome of any game or season. Being a fan is, in a fundamental way, a ridiculous waste of time and energy! I wish everyone would please go on with their lives and let their interest in Twins baseball take a comfortable back seat. Enjoy the ride, whatever it is. If they suck so bad this year tune them out. Look at the Royals, riding high, drawing in hordes of fans. Everyone likes a winner. It draws in the everybodys of the world. Then watch them leave like rats leaving a sinking ship in a year or two when they start sucking again, which they inevitably will. Stick around or tune out, but please, if you can, laugh at the whole crazy world of sports and why we care so much. Thank you.

[Platoon]

Putting things in a realistic perspective, it took four 90 loss years for Gardy to be removed. So on that basis, the answer is 3 yrs, and 355 more games. For me there are several issues with the Twins, some just bad luck. And the bad luck includes last May. It gave us the delusional thought that this was a playoff calendar team. It's not, at least yet. And it's not necessarily the decisions last winter that are hurting, it's the long term contracts signed over the last two years, by fairly average players. And the refusal to sell high on the Willinghams, Suzukis, Perkins, and yes even Dozier over those years. Would we be any better today? Hard to say, it would have sped up the learning curve for some youth, the question of course is if they would have reacted? When you try and rebuild, but can't bring yourself to cut ties with what are currently productive players, you end up with a neither a rebuild, or a veteran team. I do think the talent exists in the long term, but I don't think it's going to be this year. This is the year last year should have been. But wasn't. One thing for sure, if Sano, Buxton, Berrios, Burdi, etc don't pan out, this is going to get ugly! Regardless, either way, Ryan will be the GM until he walks away of his own volition, and Molly has got about 3 more years of leash!

[Squirrel]

As much as I have been an advocate for change at the top, because I believe to change how an organization works must come from the top down, I think firing Ryan mid-season could be disastrous. 

 

The season is underway ... who takes over for him at this point? Antony? Is that better right now? No. So in my opinion, I think it's better for him to finish the season, unless they already know/have someone to step in other than Antony. So I don't see Ryan being fired ... yet ... unless it gets really, really, really bad. We're only at one really for me. A very disappointing really, but only one. Others would get fired ahead of Ryan.

 

When I look at how the season has unfolded so far, the most disappointing thing for me is runs scored and all the strikeouts. Whose fault is that? Is it Bruno's? Is it the players'? Some combination. For me, that's where I'd start ... not sure exactly what decision to make here, but that's where I'd start. Does one or two or three get sent down? Do we make a trade? Is Bruno gone? Or some combination of the three? But that's where I'd start. But do you let it go for a bit, just to see if it rights itself? How long do you wait? I'm guessing that at the end of the month if the results haven't tipped the other way, we start seeing movement somewhere.

 

Same withe BP. It's a close second, but not as disappointing as the bats. But maybe that's because I didn't have higher expectations because of what it is. 

 

Starting pitching ... I've actually been somewhat okay with that, happy even. They've kept us in games. The bats have failed.

 

As far as firing Molitor, who knows. I've often felt that firing managers mid-season was a scapegoat-ish thing to do. While he's made some ... interesting ... calls, if he's fired, it won't be until mid-season and we are so far gone, it's the thing to do. I don't know. They waitied until after the 3rd bad season with Gardy, not sure if they wouldn't let Molitor ride it out.

 

All I know is that I wouldn't make any hasty decisions this early in the season, even though we are 0-7.

[Mike Sixel]

I also wouldn't make decisions based on 7 games.....hence my post was clear, those are moves I would have made at the beginning of the year.

 

As for Molitor, I mostly gave him a pass last year, but he's making the same very bad decisions this year......over and over.

[Loosey]

 

I cannot see them ever firing Ryan.

The people who hire and fire Terry Ryan need to watch a baseball game first.  The Pohlads have so many other business ventures that make significant amounts of money that it sometimes feels like the Twins are their little hobby business they let their friend Terry run.  Once they begin losing gobs of money is when Ryan will even be given warning.  Just my opinion.

[Loosey]

The one thing I keep holding onto is starting pitching is the hardest thing to find in baseball.  The Twins have had 6 out of 7 pretty good starts, good enough to keep most teams in the ballgame.  So if the starting pitching continues to pitch the way it has and the bats even pick up a little I think they have a chance to play entertaining baseball.

[Mike Sixel]

 

The one thing I keep holding onto is starting pitching is the hardest thing to find in baseball.  The Twins have had 6 out of 7 pretty good starts, good enough to keep most teams in the ballgame.  So if the starting pitching continues to pitch the way it has and the bats even pick up a little I think they have a chance to play entertaining baseball.

 

I agree with this......

[lukeduke1980]

I don't think Molitor will be blamed for writing down the names given to him.  He might have influenced a Buxton over Ryan Sweeney decision but that's hardly fireable.  

[d-mac]

 

As much as I have been an advocate for change at the top, because I believe to change how an organization works must come from the top down, I think firing Ryan mid-season could be disastrous. 

 

The season is underway ... who takes over for him at this point? Antony? Is that better right now? No. So in my opinion, I think it's better for him to finish the season, unless they already know/have someone to step in other than Antony. So I don't see Ryan being fired ... yet ... unless it gets really, really, really bad. We're only at one really for me. A very disappointing really, but only one. Others would get fired ahead of Ryan.

 

When I look at how the season has unfolded so far, the most disappointing thing for me is runs scored and all the strikeouts. Whose fault is that? Is it Bruno's? Is it the players'? Some combination. For me, that's where I'd start ... not sure exactly what decision to make here, but that's where I'd start. Does one or two or three get sent down? Do we make a trade? Is Bruno gone? Or some combination of the three? But that's where I'd start. But do you let it go for a bit, just to see if it rights itself? How long do you wait? I'm guessing that at the end of the month if the results haven't tipped the other way, we start seeing movement somewhere.

 

Same withe BP. It's a close second, but not as disappointing as the bats. But maybe that's because I didn't have higher expectations because of what it is. 

 

Starting pitching ... I've actually been somewhat okay with that, happy even. They've kept us in games. The bats have failed.

 

As far as firing Molitor, who knows. I've often felt that firing managers mid-season was a scapegoat-ish thing to do. While he's made some ... interesting ... calls, if he's fired, it won't be until mid-season and we are so far gone, it's the thing to do. I don't know. They waitied until after the 3rd bad season with Gardy, not sure if they wouldn't let Molitor ride it out.

 

All I know is that I wouldn't make any hasty decisions this early in the season, even though we are 0-7.

 

As much as I supported getting rid of Gardenhire, it was hard to blame him for the poor seasons. No manager could have won with that line-up.

 

With Molitor we have/had the expectation of contention this year. Instead the team comes out playing like a dumpster fire (not even good enough to be compared to hot garbage) and a number of their young players that should be progressing, have taken a step back... a BIG step back. Is the manager to blame for that? Probably at least some of the blame. Bruno should be given two weeks to turn the offense around. No improvement by then, replace him with Chad Allen. If the team doesn't turn around and is on track to lose 90+ games at the All-Star break, then absolutely you have to make a change by dumping Molitor. I mean the team has to at least show fans that they are committed to winning and aren't satisfied with poor performance after 5 seasons of "rebuild" (not really a rebuild), when they should start to be winning.

[d-mac]

 

As much as I have been an advocate for change at the top, because I believe to change how an organization works must come from the top down, I think firing Ryan mid-season could be disastrous. 

 

The season is underway ... who takes over for him at this point? Antony? Is that better right now? No. So in my opinion, I think it's better for him to finish the season, unless they already know/have someone to step in other than Antony. So I don't see Ryan being fired ... yet ... unless it gets really, really, really bad. We're only at one really for me. A very disappointing really, but only one. Others would get fired ahead of Ryan.

 

When I look at how the season has unfolded so far, the most disappointing thing for me is runs scored and all the strikeouts. Whose fault is that? Is it Bruno's? Is it the players'? Some combination. For me, that's where I'd start ... not sure exactly what decision to make here, but that's where I'd start. Does one or two or three get sent down? Do we make a trade? Is Bruno gone? Or some combination of the three? But that's where I'd start. But do you let it go for a bit, just to see if it rights itself? How long do you wait? I'm guessing that at the end of the month if the results haven't tipped the other way, we start seeing movement somewhere.

 

Same withe BP. It's a close second, but not as disappointing as the bats. But maybe that's because I didn't have higher expectations because of what it is. 

 

Starting pitching ... I've actually been somewhat okay with that, happy even. They've kept us in games. The bats have failed.

 

As far as firing Molitor, who knows. I've often felt that firing managers mid-season was a scapegoat-ish thing to do. While he's made some ... interesting ... calls, if he's fired, it won't be until mid-season and we are so far gone, it's the thing to do. I don't know. They waitied until after the 3rd bad season with Gardy, not sure if they wouldn't let Molitor ride it out.

 

All I know is that I wouldn't make any hasty decisions this early in the season, even though we are 0-7.

 

I agree about waiting until the offseason to fire TR, unless they have somebody from OUTSIDE THE ORGANIZATION ready to come in. If they replace TR with Antony I will boycott the Twins. They wouldn't deserve my money or my eyeballs. 

 

The state of the bullpen is 100% TR's fault, not the coaches. He's done just an absolute crap job at assembling it. 

 

And I agree on the starting pitching. I'm more than satisfied with the job Neil Allen has done.

[alarp33]

 

If they replace TR with Antony I will boycott the Twins. They wouldn't deserve my money or my eyeballs. 

 

 

I couldn't agree with this more.  It might be the only single move that would cause me to abandon the Twins. 

 

As for Molitor... I swear I read something last week that Pohlad said he has the same lifetime contract as Terry Ryan... I'm not making that up, he said it

[d-mac]

 

The people who hire and fire Terry Ryan need to watch a baseball game first.  The Pohlads have so many other business ventures that make significant amounts of money that it sometimes feels like the Twins are their little hobby business they let their friend Terry run.  Once they begin losing gobs of money is when Ryan will even be given warning.  Just my opinion.

 

As I had mentioned in my post, I just can't see how they can justify keep TR around on a business decision level. He's spent so much of the Pohlad's money, and has very little by the way of results to show for it. The only explanation is that it's a hobby and they don't really care about making money or winning. Or that they are just such poor business people and couldn't make a profit running a hot dog stand.  

[d-mac]

 

I couldn't agree with this more.  It might be the only single move that would cause me to abandon the Twins. 

 

As for Molitor... I swear I read something last week that Pohlad said he has the same lifetime contract as Terry Ryan... I'm not making that up, he said it

 

Dear God. If that's true, this team will never sniff the playoffs again. 

 

How can you motivate your employees with only carrot, and never a threat of the stick?

[alarp33]

 

Dear God. If that's true, this team will never sniff the playoffs again. 

 

I found the quote - it was in Charley Walters column on Sunday

 

Jim Pohlad said Molitor, 59, can manage his club as long as he wants.

“That’s what I’m saying right now, that’s for sure,” Pohlad said last week.

The Twins fired Ron Gardenhire as manager after 13 seasons.

“It does become apparent to everybody at some point that it’s time for a new message, which isn’t about the person,” Pohlad said. “I don’t anticipate that happening with Paul.

“(Managing) is not an easy job. It’s grueling for a person to manage. Aside from the pressure of winning and losing, it’s just a grueling schedule. It’s a lot of responsibility.”

Pohlad added that he “doesn’t have any interest in those contracts. (Molitor) is our manager as long as we mutually want each other to be. I feel that way about Paul, I feel that way about (general manager) Terry (Ryan).

[d-mac]

 

I found the quote - it was in Charley Walters column on Sunday

 

Jim Pohlad said Molitor, 59, can manage his club as long as he wants.

“That’s what I’m saying right now, that’s for sure,” Pohlad said last week.

The Twins fired Ron Gardenhire as manager after 13 seasons.

“It does become apparent to everybody at some point that it’s time for a new message, which isn’t about the person,” Pohlad said. “I don’t anticipate that happening with Paul.

“(Managing) is not an easy job. It’s grueling for a person to manage. Aside from the pressure of winning and losing, it’s just a grueling schedule. It’s a lot of responsibility.”

Pohlad added that he “doesn’t have any interest in those contracts. (Molitor) is our manager as long as we mutually want each other to be. I feel that way about Paul, I feel that way about (general manager) Terry (Ryan).

 

I just vomited a little bit in my mouth. The FO is never going to be cleaned out if that's the case. Fans are just going to leave in droves and never come back if that's their cavalier attitude to success. 

[spinowner]

I haven't read this thread. But I'll say this: any owner or other team official who thinks a 7-game losing streak is just cause for firing a manager or GM is off his or her rocker.

[Platoon]

I couldn't agree with this more.  It might be the only single move that would cause me to abandon the Twins. 

 

As for Molitor... I swear I read something last week that Pohlad said he has the same lifetime contract as Terry Ryan... I'm not making that up, he said it

I saw the same thing!

[Vanimal46]

 

I found the quote - it was in Charley Walters column on Sunday

 

Jim Pohlad said Molitor, 59, can manage his club as long as he wants.

“That’s what I’m saying right now, that’s for sure,” Pohlad said last week.

The Twins fired Ron Gardenhire as manager after 13 seasons.

“It does become apparent to everybody at some point that it’s time for a new message, which isn’t about the person,” Pohlad said. “I don’t anticipate that happening with Paul.

“(Managing) is not an easy job. It’s grueling for a person to manage. Aside from the pressure of winning and losing, it’s just a grueling schedule. It’s a lot of responsibility.”

Pohlad added that he “doesn’t have any interest in those contracts. (Molitor) is our manager as long as we mutually want each other to be. I feel that way about Paul, I feel that way about (general manager) Terry (Ryan).

http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww308/zeitgeist10/DumbAndDumberGag.gif

[Platoon]

First of all, you would not fire anyone over 7 games. That's silly. That said, after watching the Twin orginisation over this many years, the following seems to me obvious. Ryan will never be fired, he might ride off into the sunset, but fired? Never! But when he does, if Rob Anthony is not the new GM, I will be stunned. Pleased, but stunned. (Remember changing GM's is not necessarily a panacea, see Timberwolves) Molly is so far removed from being let go, you cannot see that far. By the time that happens half this team will be gone. This ownership is not going to do anything as long as the team turns a profit. These are business owners first, there is no baseball background or desire to spend enough to really be great. It's an investment. How did they do? Let me check the P&L, and I will get back to you. When I consider the future of the Twins, I look at the past 20 years. There is absolutely nothing in those 20 years to indicate there will be any abrupt changes made. To project or hope otherwise is not only futile, it's frustrating. Taking that history into consideration makes all those ST decisions understandable. They kept the high buck guy in the rotation, they hung on to the 3 guys out of options, they sent the rookie (Duffey) down, kept none of the high velocity RP, and built the pen out of sticks and stones.the only thing that surprised me at all, was Kepler. And that went away when I found out Mastro was not on the 40 man, and Polanco doesn't play OF. Meaning they wanted a Sano safety valve. If Mastro is on the 40 man, Kepler would be in Rochester today. Frankly, the whole thing is depressing, but it is what it is, and it's not going to change as long as the Pohlads own the team.

[notoriousgod71]

 

The people who hire and fire Terry Ryan need to watch a baseball game first.  The Pohlads have so many other business ventures that make significant amounts of money that it sometimes feels like the Twins are their little hobby business they let their friend Terry run.  Once they begin losing gobs of money is when Ryan will even be given warning.  Just my opinion.

 

 

Yes, and the answer to them losing money will be to slash payroll, not improve the team to get more revenue.

[Pardon My Dinger]

 

I agree with this......

Would you go as far as to say you "like this"?

[Loosey]

 

First of all, you would not fire anyone over 7 games. That's silly. That said, after watching the Twin orginisation over this many years, the following seems to me obvious. Ryan will never be fired, he might ride off into the sunset, but fired? Never! But when he does, if Rob Anthony is not the new GM, I will be stunned. Pleased, but stunned. (Remember changing GM's is not necessarily a panacea, see Timberwolves) Molly is so far removed from being let go, you cannot see that far. By the time that happens half this team will be gone. This ownership is not going to do anything as long as the team turns a profit. These are business owners first, there is no baseball background or desire to spend enough to really be great. It's an investment. How did they do? Let me check the P&L, and I will get back to you. When I consider the future of the Twins, I look at the past 20 years. There is absolutely nothing in those 20 years to indicate there will be any abrupt changes made. To project or hope otherwise is not only futile, it's frustrating. Taking that history into consideration makes all those ST decisions understandable. They kept the high buck guy in the rotation, they hung on to the 3 guys out of options, they sent the rookie (Duffey) down, kept none of the high velocity RP, and built the pen out of sticks and stones.the only thing that surprised me at all, was Kepler. And that went away when I found out Mastro was not on the 40 man, and Polanco doesn't play OF. Meaning they wanted a Sano safety valve. If Mastro is on the 40 man, Kepler would be in Rochester today. Frankly, the whole thing is depressing, but it is what it is, and it's not going to change as long as the Pohlads own the team.

Back to my post from about this time last year.  If all of Twins Daily pooled their money to buy the Twins what would it cost each of us?

[Pardon My Dinger]

 

Back to my post from about this time last year.  If all of Twins Daily pooled their money to buy the Twins what would it cost each of us?

Now we're talkin! I have some fabulous food and beverage ideas. 

[Brock Beauchamp]

Now we're talkin! I have some fabulous food and beverage ideas.

I'd love to revive my petition for Bremer-shaped Popsicles called "Dick on a Stick".

 

You know, for kids.

[Brock Beauchamp]

I also have some great ideas for Rusty Kuntz Day.