Changes to rule(s) pertaining to breaking up the DP

Otto von Ballpark · February 26, 2016

I think the new rule is trying to remove context. If there's a throw coming in from left field to the short inside of part of the bag on a player trying to leg out a double, you might see that very same slide that took out Kang.

And in that case, the runner wouldn't be trying to initiate contact with the fielder, and it would be OK.

You might as well argue that throwing at a right-handed batter's head is OK too, because a pitcher might throw the same pitch as a pitchout against a left-handed batter.

TheLeviathan · February 26, 2016

Everyone used to do it. Now nobody will be able to do it. So from a competition perspective, nothing is lost whatsoever.

What is lost is unneccesary injuries. Good players missing time. Owners paying guys to not play. Career ending injuries, concussions (Morneau), etc.

Right, whatever tiny gain you feel it is for you enjoyment of the game is WAY more than offset by the pain the Pirates' fans felt last year to not have Kang the rest of the season.

The sum total of this move is overwhelmingly positive.

This is how you're taught to slide into second on a double. No reason you can't slide into it that way on a double play too.

tobi0040 · February 26, 2016

And in that case, the runner wouldn't be trying to initiate contact with the fielder, and it would be OK.

You might as well argue that throwing at a right-handed batter's head is OK too, because a pitcher might throw the same pitch as a pitchout against a left-handed batter.

Yeah, it is 100% obvious virtually every time if a guy is trying to initiate contact. Whether that be starting his slide at the bag (which would result in sliding 10 feet past the bag), or the leg whip, or what have you. There should be very little, if any judgement issues here.

tobi0040 · February 26, 2016

Right, whatever tiny gain you feel it is for you enjoyment of the game is WAY more than offset by the pain the Pirates' fans felt last year to not have Kang the rest of the season.

The sum total of this move is overwhelmingly positive.

This is how you're taught to slide into second on a double. No reason you can't slide into it that way on a double play too.

Exactly. And players, even veterans had to slide the old way. Young players certainly did. They had to be tough, play the "right way" etc. So Morneau technically had to slide late on the concussion play.

This removes all that BS.

gunnarthor · February 26, 2016

Everyone used to do it. Now nobody will be able to do it. So from a competition perspective, nothing is lost whatsoever.

What is lost is unneccesary injuries. Good players missing time. Owners paying guys to not play. Career ending injuries, concussions (Morneau), etc.

Woah. Morneau's slide wasn't remotely dirty. It was just a freak thing and I don't think the new rule would have prevented it or called Cuddy out.

http://m.mlb.com/video/topic/6479266/v9761163/mintor-morneau-leaves-the-game-after-getting-hurt

It that's a dirty slide outlawed by the new rules, then I think they'll have a much bigger impact on the game and we're looking at Japanese rules. But I don't think it'll come to that.

TheLeviathan · February 26, 2016

Morneau's injury happened because he tried to slide into the 2B. If he had been sliding to be safe it's likely he stops long before he reaches McDonald.

Instead he slide over the bag and tried to get McDonald's legs. Was it dirty? No. Dumb and unnecessary? Yes. And it cost us as Twins fans A LOT.

Sooner this mentality is gone the better.

tobi0040 · February 26, 2016

Woah. Morneau's slide wasn't remotely dirty. It was just a freak thing and I don't think the new rule would have prevented it or called Cuddy out.

http://m.mlb.com/video/topic/6479266/v9761163/mintor-morneau-leaves-the-game-after-getting-hurt

It that's a dirty slide outlawed by the new rules, then I think they'll have a much bigger impact on the game and we're looking at Japanese rules. But I don't think it'll come to that.

He would have slid past the bag and not slide that late had it not been a double play ball.

In my opinion.

gunnarthor · February 26, 2016

He would have slid past the bag and not slide that late had it not been a double play ball.

In my opinion.

Well, again, I don't think the new rule will change that nor would I want it to. We'll see how the enforcement goes.

Otto von Ballpark · February 26, 2016

Well, again, I don't think the new rule will change that nor would I want it to. We'll see how the enforcement goes.

The article quotes the new rule as including the following requirement for a legal slide: "being able to and attempting to remain on the base at the completion of the slide". Morneau clearly failed to do that, no?

I could see a similar slide working, though it would require not leaning so heavily off the bag toward the fielder (which would have spared Morneau the concussion too).

h2oface · February 26, 2016

Everyone used to do it. Now nobody will be able to do it. So from a competition perspective, nothing is lost whatsoever.

What is lost is unneccesary injuries. Good players missing time. Owners paying guys to not play. Career ending injuries, concussions (Morneau), etc.

Morneau's slide would still be legal under the new rule. He went straight into second base. He surely started his slide a bit later than he could have, and clearly wanted to disrupt the second baseman, but he did not alter his path and slid right into the base and it looks to me like he could clearly stay in contact. The second baseman was held up by the throw, but this is a fair and good slide even by the new and improved rule. It goes to show you that when you purposely behave to make contact in a not contact sport and stretch the "spirit of the game" intentions, that instant karma can get you when you least expect it.

http://m.mlb.com/video/topic/0/v9761163/min-tor-morneau-leaves-the-game-after-getting-hurt

tobi0040 · February 26, 2016

Morneau's slide would still be legal under the new rule. He went straight into second base. He surely started his slide a bit later than he could have, and clearly wanted to disrupt the second baseman, but he did not alter his path and slid right into the base and it looks to me like he could clearly stay in contact. The second baseman was held up by the throw, but this is a fair and good slide even by the new and improved rule. It goes to show you that when you purposely behave to make contact in a not contact sport and stretch the "spirit of the game" intentions, that instant karma can get you when you least expect it.

http://m.mlb.com/video/topic/0/v9761163/min-tor-morneau-leaves-the-game-after-getting-hurt

I think you could make the case that Justin would have slid 5 feet past the bag had he not hit the fielder. therefore he intentionally tried making contact.

If we get a couple fewer brain diseases, broken limbs, etc a year I am not sure what the downside is here.

Hosken Bombo Disco · February 26, 2016

I could care less that he could still touch the bag

even though the new rule---a written rule, by the way----speaks specifically to the runners ability to touch the bag.

nicksaviking · February 26, 2016

Ok so what happens if the runner doesn't over-slide the bag only because he used the 2B he intentionally took out as a backboard to slow his momentum?

TheLeviathan · February 26, 2016

even though the new rule---a written rule, by the way----speaks specifically to the runners ability to touch the bag.

But that's only part of it. It's not like the rule says "as long as you can touch the bag anything goes". The rule expects runners to touch the bag along with several other things to be a legal slide.

So yeah, I could care less if he can touch the bag if his intent is still to maim an infielder. The mentality has to change.

Hosken Bombo Disco · February 26, 2016

But that's only part of it. It's not like the rule says "as long as you can touch the bag anything goes". The rule expects runners to touch the bag along with several other things to be a legal slide.

So yeah, I could care less if he can touch the bag if his intent is still to maim an infielder. The mentality has to change.

But the intent is not to maim the infielder, so no.

Hosken Bombo Disco · February 26, 2016

And in that case, the runner wouldn't be trying to initiate contact with the fielder, and it would be OK.

You might as well argue that throwing at a right-handed batter's head is OK too, because a pitcher might throw the same pitch as a pitchout against a left-handed batter.

No.

tobi0040 · February 27, 2016

Ok so what happens if the runner doesn't over-slide the bag only because he used the 2B he intentionally took out as a backboard to slow his momentum?

The ump hopefully can differentiate between that and a normal slide and calls the DP. I don't think it is hard to do that and I have not umped 1,000's of games

Hosken Bombo Disco · February 27, 2016

Look at it this way. The 4-6-3 double play has evolved into something like a ballet. The throw is coming from the direction of first base to second, where the shortstop sweeps past the bag, catching the throw and transferring, and returning the throw to first in one motion, the runner hitting the dirt during the performance. The play is moving fast. Both the fielder and the runner have the same objective: second base. In order to get the throw to first as quickly as possible, the shortstop takes liberties with tagging the second base bag. The runner will usually lose the race to the second base, and is looking for his own advantage.

Here is my test..imagine there is no double play situation, no shortstop, no other player on the field except the base runner sliding into second. Does the slide look legit? In the case of Coughlan sliding into Kang, I would say yes, it was a good slide.

TheLeviathan · February 27, 2016

But the intent is not to maim the infielder, so no.

Yes, it was. What guy, on his own, slides like that? Is that how you were taught?

Freeze your video at 56 seconds or 1:14 or 1:16 or 1:18 or after where he lands on his back and tell me that slide is legit.

If you truly think that's a legit slide I'm not sure what to say. He's CLEARLY sticking his right leg out to maim Kang and break up the double play. The same inane, non-sensical thing so many guys are taught to do because it's gritty or tough or some other nonsense.

All that slide accomplishes in a vacuum is hurting someone. And that's exactly the outcome that happened.

tobi0040 · February 27, 2016

Look at it this way. The 4-6-3 double play has evolved into something like a ballet. The throw is coming from the direction of first base to second, where the shortstop sweeps past the bag, catching the throw and transferring, and returning the throw to first in one motion, the runner hitting the dirt during the performance. The play is moving fast. Both the fielder and the runner have the same objective: second base. In order to get the throw to first as quickly as possible, the shortstop takes liberties with tagging the second base bag. The runner will usually lose the race to the second base, and is looking for his own advantage.

Here is my test..imagine there is no double play situation, no shortstop, no other player on the field except the base runner sliding into second. Does the slide look legit? In the case of Coughlan sliding into Kang, I would say yes, it was a good slide.

The fastest way from point A to B is a straight line. That slide slowed his momentum to the bag and priority was given to swinging his feet six feet to the right of the bag. Not in any way something you would see in any other situation on a force play.

Paul Pleiss · February 27, 2016

I think that there has been a lot less neighborhood plays then we, as fans, think there are. One thing I've loved about replay in baseball is seeing how quickly those guys turn the plays, and do, for the briefest of moments, tag the bag as they shuffle by. Awesome.

I am fine with the take out slide going away, I think we'll see a LOT of replays on double plays to see if fielder was on the bag with the ball.

I especially like the 30 second rule for the mound visits.

USAFChief · February 27, 2016

Look at it this way. The 4-6-3 double play has evolved into something like a ballet. The throw is coming from the direction of first base to second, where the shortstop sweeps past the bag, catching the throw and transferring, and returning the throw to first in one motion, the runner hitting the dirt during the performance. The play is moving fast. Both the fielder and the runner have the same objective: second base. In order to get the throw to first as quickly as possible, the shortstop takes liberties with tagging the second base bag. The runner will usually lose the race to the second base, and is looking for his own advantage.
Here is my test..imagine there is no double play situation, no shortstop, no other player on the field except the base runner sliding into second. Does the slide look legit? In the case of Coughlan sliding into Kang, I would say yes, it was a good slide.

If its not a DP situation, he doesn't slide that way, because his goal would be to get to the bag as quickly as possible, and stay on the bag.

And they've also eliminated the SS "taking liberties." No more neighborhood play. A force play has to be a force play, just like every other force play. Also a good thing.

Look, I'm old school. I want the game played hard, I want pitchers pitching inside, I want hitters knocked off the plate. And I want my base runners sliding hard into second base in DP situations.

What I want eliminated is base runners sliding into fielders, on purpose, when the fielder isn't in the path to the bag. Don't slide late, don't jump into his legs, don't roll block. Don't alter your path to initiate contact.

Simple. Slide hard, into the bag. That's a runner's right. If the fielder is in your way, knock his arse down. But slide into the bag, so the fielder can avoid you, if he so chooses.

gunnarthor · February 27, 2016

Everyone relax. Let's see how the rule plays out before deciding what's going to happen.

spinowner · February 27, 2016

Simple. Slide hard, into the bag. That's a runner's right. If the fielder is in your way, knock his arse down.

I like the game played that way too. But as I mentioned, according to the rule I posted above if the runner has been forced out it's not his right to interfere with the fielder in any way. I can see this inconsistency in the rules leading to disputations.

Otto von Ballpark · February 27, 2016

One thing I've loved about replay in baseball is seeing how quickly those guys turn the plays, and do, for the briefest of moments, tag the bag as they shuffle by. Awesome.

Yes. And hopefully the new rule encourages players to put more emphasis on achieving that perfection, instead of just avoiding injury.

tobi0040 · February 27, 2016

I am fine with pitchers brushing hitters off the plate. In the NL.

TheLeviathan · February 27, 2016

At some point "tough" became synonymous with dirty and cowardly in baseball.

I'm all for toughness, but baseball left that behind years ago. Now it's just phony nonsense.

Hosken Bombo Disco · February 28, 2016

I think that there has been a lot less neighborhood plays then we, as fans, think there are. One thing I've loved about replay in baseball is seeing how quickly those guys turn the plays, and do, for the briefest of moments, tag the bag as they shuffle by. Awesome.

I agree. Most of the guys who can stick around at the top are amazing to watch.