Mauer Says Concussions Blurred His Vision/Walk Away Joe merged threads

[TheLeviathan]

What's funny to me is that we sometimes sit on our high horse about how bad it is to be cheering for people to abuse their bodies to the point of no return, but when we suggest that maybe it's ok to let someone we appreciate go early...we get lambasted for telling them what to do.

 

I appreciate what doc was trying to say, which was basically - do what's right for you the rest of your life Joe.  Don't bleed out a few more risky years that might hurt your ability to play with your grandchildren.  

 

At the same time, Joe has to balance that risk with the reward of continuing to try and overcome those lasting side effects.  I think we all know that it's Joe's decision ultimately, but as fans it's sort of natural to lean towards one side or the other of what we think he should do if we were in his situation.  I think a lot of the reaction is overblowing what is really being said.

[Mike Sixel]

There are serious diminishing returns, monetarily, for playing at this point. He and his heirs are set for life. So, other than some desire to be even more set, and the fun of doing that for a living vs how else he might spend his life, it would seem that the rewards aren't that high at this point.

 

If it was me, I'd retire and spend time with my kids, but I understand that not everyone has the same priorities as me.

[DaveW]

 

What's funny to me is that we sometimes sit on our high horse about how bad it is to be cheering for people to abuse their bodies to the point of no return, but when we suggest that maybe it's ok to let someone we appreciate go early...we get lambasted for telling them what to do.

 

I appreciate what doc was trying to say, which was basically - do what's right for you the rest of your life Joe.  Don't bleed out a few more risky years that might hurt your ability to play with your grandchildren.  

 

At the same time, Joe has to balance that risk with the reward of continuing to try and overcome those lasting side effects.  I think we all know that it's Joe's decision ultimately, but as fans it's sort of natural to lean towards one side or the other of what we think he should do if we were in his situation.  I think a lot of the reaction is overblowing what is really being said.

So if Mauer has a .320/.410/.430 line this year, will you see a similar article posted heading into next year? I mean he will still be at the same exact risk for another concussion in 2017 that he would be heading into 2016.

 

My point is, the only reason this sort of "open letter" gets written is because Joe is coming off a couple less than stellar years. And as mentioned I find it a bit insulting as well, Joe obviously knows a lot more than anyone on this board on what is happening to his body to sort of be like "oh well think of your kids and grandkids!" is frankly nobodies business but his own anyways. If the doctors have cleared him, its up to him. The Twins owe him 69 million dollars, there is no reason why he shouldn't continue to play as long as he is cleared and their aren't any immediate dangers.

[Squirrel]

 

There are serious diminishing returns, monetarily, for playing at this point. He and his heirs are set for life. So, other than some desire to be even more set, and the fun of doing that for a living vs how else he might spend his life, it would seem that the rewards aren't that high at this point.

 

If it was me, I'd retire and spend time with my kids, but I understand that not everyone has the same priorities as me.

That's easy to say when we aren't in his position. Is your current job your dream job? The job you've wanted since you were a kid? With an organization you idolized from day one? It's easy for us on the sidelines to say, 'Yeah, walk away; you don't need this,' but I don't think it's quite so easy. Especially when he's 20 years younger than either of us. Heck, I worry about leaving my job when it's time. I'm one of the lucky ones to have that dream job.

[Rosterman]

It also explains why the Twins didn't encourage Kennys Vargas to take the foreign job. The Twins do need some depth at first base for the coming year just in case. They now have Park. They could always shift Plouffe. Longterm, they could think of Sano. Or Kepler could be the first base guy of the future (will be interesting to see who plays where at Rochester this season).

[DaveW]

 

It also explains why the Twins didn't encourage Kennys Vargas to take the foreign job. The Twins do need some depth at first base for the coming year just in case. They now have Park. They could always shift Plouffe. Longterm, they could think of Sano. Or Kepler could be the first base guy of the future (will be interesting to see who plays where at Rochester this season).

To be fair, 1st base depth is the easiest thing to find in baseball. The Twins seem to worry about it quite a bit though (with the Park signing etc) for some reason. I am much more concerned about pitching and MI depth to be honest...

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

It also explains why the Twins didn't encourage Kennys Vargas to take the foreign job.

Actually, I thought they did encourage it, but Vargas refused.  Signing Park was probably the biggest piece of encouragement they offered, as Vargas is now effectively buried for 2016 here unless multiple players get injured simultaneously.  Much like how they encouraged Kris Johnson and Andrew Albers to go overseas, by signing other free agent starting pitchers.

[Mike Sixel]

 

That's easy to say when we aren't in his position. Is your current job your dream job? The job you've wanted since you were a kid? With an organization you idolized from day one? It's easy for us on the sidelines to say, 'Yeah, walk away; you don't need this,' but I don't think it's quite so easy. Especially when he's 20 years younger than either of us. Heck, I worry about leaving my job when it's time. I'm one of the lucky ones to have that dream job.

 

I understand your post, I really do. Is it still his dream job at this point, when he's not productive, having healthy issues, and doesn't see his family for more than 50% of the year?

 

All I know is, I passed on a ton of more interesting, higher paying, jobs when my kids were young, so I could spend that time with them.......so ya, I am pretty sure I'd quit. I understand, however, that not everyone has the same priorities as me. I wouldn't trade that time with my family for any job on the planet.

[DaveW]

 

I understand your post, I really do. Is it still his dream job at this point, when he's not productive, having healthy issues, and doesn't see his family for more than 50% of the year?

 

 

Few things, just because he is on the road for 81 games out of the year doesn't mean he only sees his family 50% of the year, by my math even if he doesn't see them for 81 games (nothing prevents a players family from traveling with them sometimes btw) you still are seeing them the majority of the time (66%)

 

I mean I guess that's just part of making a living for a lot of men and women, travel etc, that doesn't mean they are somehow worse parents or something. Also, couldn't you use this argument for pretty much any professional athlete that has a family and has made a good amount of money so far?

 

I think it's too early to say he isn't productive anymore, it's not like he hit .180 last year, he still held us own and posted very close to a league average OPS, and is only two seasons removed from a .880 OPS (in 2014 he had a OPS+ of 107...again not great, but you can't call that not productive!)

 

Lastly, if he can play through his health issues and they aren't causing him any serious current or future issues, I don't see the problem. Again, the only reason why this is even being discussed is because he had a below average season last year and is making a lot of money.

[Mike Sixel]

 

Few things, just because he is on the road for 81 games out of the year doesn't mean he only sees his family 50% of the year, by my math even if he doesn't see them for 81 games (nothing prevents a players family from traveling with them sometimes btw) you still are seeing them the majority of the time (66%)

 

I mean I guess that's just part of making a living for a lot of men and women, travel etc, that doesn't mean they are somehow worse parents or something. Also, couldn't you use this argument for pretty much any professional athlete that has a family and has made a good amount of money so far?

 

I think it's too early to say he isn't productive anymore, it's not like he hit .180 last year, he still held us own and posted very close to a league average OPS, and is only two seasons removed from a .880 OPS (in 2014 he had a OPS+ of 107...again not great, but you can't call that not productive!)

 

Lastly, if he can play through his health issues and they aren't causing him any serious current or future issues, I don't see the problem. Again, the only reason why this is even being discussed is because he had a below average season last year and is making a lot of money.

 

don't they live in Florida, not MN?

 

WHERE did I say they were worse parents, or even imply that? I said I wouldn't trade it for anything. Seriously, try not reading things into posts that aren't stated. It helps for a productive conversation. 

 

And yes, you could make this argument about any wealthy person. As I said, different people have different priorities. NO PLACE did I even imply ANYTHING about their parenting at all. NO PLACE.

[drjim]

 

don't they live in Florida, not MN?

 

WHERE did I say they were worse parents, or even imply that? I said I wouldn't trade it for anything. Seriously, try not reading things into posts that aren't stated. It helps for a productive conversation. 

 

And yes, you could make this argument about any wealthy person. As I said, different people have different priorities. NO PLACE did I even imply ANYTHING about their parenting at all. NO PLACE.

 

They live in Minnesota (though they also have a house in Florida).

 

I'll leave the other speculation to you guys.

[Mike Sixel]

 

They live in Minnesota (though they also have a house in Florida).

 

I'll leave the other speculation to you guys.

 

thanks, didn't know that. Only slightly changes my beliefs, really.

[TheLeviathan]

 

So if Mauer has a .320/.410/.430 line this year, will you see a similar article posted heading into next year? 

 

I don't know, in that scenario does he come back out in January and announce he still has awful migraines?

 

I mean, most of this stems from Joe himself coming out and saying he is still experiencing side effects.  To me, the issue is completely separate from his production.  Like Robert Smith saving his knees or Chris Borland saving his brain, not so much about his batting average.

 

As I said first, I think this is premature, but every time Mauer announces he still has problems is reason to consider it.

[Squirrel]

 

I understand your post, I really do. Is it still his dream job at this point, when he's not productive, having healthy issues, and doesn't see his family for more than 50% of the year?

 

All I know is, I passed on a ton of more interesting, higher paying, jobs when my kids were young, so I could spend that time with them.......so ya, I am pretty sure I'd quit. I understand, however, that not everyone has the same priorities as me. I wouldn't trade that time with my family for any job on the planet.

Yeah, I get what you're saying ... just playing little 'devil's advocate' here. It's just so different for everyone. While I'm not saying your suggestion is such, it's often easy for people to say 'Well, he should just do this or that' when it's never that easy. I work in a profession where people just don't want to leave their jobs because their jobs are literally their lives, and have been their entire lives. While we earn a very nice salary, comparatively, and a good pension, it's just a really big thing for some to give up when it's been everything and all they are. I always say 'I'm not going to be one of those and keep hanging on when it's my time to go,' but when the time comes, it might be harder than it seems.

[DrNeau]

 

I wasn't comparing him to other 1B or DH.

 

When comparing him with other 1B, 

2015: .265 BA, 10 HR, 66 RBI, .718 OPS
There were 31 first basemen with at least 400 plate appearances in 2015. Mauer ranked 27th.

 

For Joe's safety, the Twins should give Mauer an 81 game limit, and cite his comments on his own physical condition as reasoning. 

 

[Seth Stohs]

 

When comparing him with other 1B, 

2015: .265 BA, 10 HR, 66 RBI, .718 OPS
There were 31 first basemen with at least 400 plate appearances in 2015. Mauer ranked 27th.

 

For Joe's safety, the Twins should give Mauer an 81 game limit, and cite his comments on his own physical condition as reasoning. 

 

Maybe, but it'd be silly to start the season with that assumption. At least go into the season with some optimism and see how it plays out. 

[DrNeau]

When pitchers are coming off of an injury, they are often limited in terms of innings pitched. As Joe is claiming to still be adversely affected by injury, is "silly" really appropriate verbiage here? Especially since his production is near the lowest of qualifying 1B in all MLB?

 

I do, however, agree with having optimism and seeing how things play out.

[ashbury]

When pitchers are coming off of an injury, they are often limited in terms of innings pitched.

Pitchers are put on limits because the nature of pitching puts repetitive stress on wherever the injury in question occurred. You bring them back slowly and let the injured body part regain its strength.

 

The analogy for someone coming back from a concussion just isn't there. Playing baseball isn't a series of tiny concussive events.

[DrNeau]

So it is out of the question to limit Joe's amount of playing time, given that he has stated he is still suffering from a physical injury? That's an interesting position to take.

 

So from what I read on this forum, the affects from the concussion are a good basis to accept poor production, but at the same time, his playing time should not be limited. Roger that.

[ashbury]

So it is out of the question to limit Joe's amount of playing time

Yes, that's exactly what I said.

 

Look, I just explained why a pitching injury is a poor guide for Mauer. If you can explain how playing some of the time but not all will improve Joe's vision, we'll have something to talk about. Otherwise, it just sounds like you want his playing time reduced because he's hitting poorly and someone else in his place would help the team more - which is nothing new, and has nothing to do with the revelation about his blurred vision, and makes the pitching example a red herring.

[DrNeau]

Fair enough. I just think that if a player is claiming to be injured, there should be some discussion about playing time - at a minimum. In fact, after an injury, the first questions you ask are:

* Can he physically play?

And

* Can he play well?

 

If either of the answers are "no", then discussing playing time certainly is not silly.

[ewen21]

 

Maybe, but it'd be silly to start the season with that assumption. At least go into the season with some optimism and see how it plays out. 

With or without optimism there needs to be rational thinking.  Optimism (or the lack thereof) should never trump that.

 

There needs to be no grey area here.  Joe threw up the red flag himself.  Having blurry vision and alluding to post-concussion side effects in the way he did got everyone's attention.  Now he is saying it is "overblown" and he refuses to say anything more.

 

Maybe the Twins should stop listening to him altogether?  Either perform, or be benched.  Stay healthy or we will simply discard and replace.  Joe is right.  We are overthinking it.  Put him through concussion protocols, get him to an eye doctor and report it on mlb.com.  Simple as that.

 

He should be treated like any other player on the team.  I think he's earned that

[Seth Stohs]

 

Fair enough. I just think that if a player is claiming to be injured, there should be some discussion about playing time - at a minimum. In fact, after an injury, the first questions you ask are:
* Can he physically play?
And
* Can he play well?

If either of the answers are "no", then discussing playing time certainly is not silly.

 

He has experienced occasional blurred vision the last couple of years. Not every day. Mostly, he learned it was during day games, so he's trying something. 

 

Sure, he can be judged based on playing, and that's fine. Every player can be. 

 

I think that now they just need to try to find a way to get Mauer to acknowledge those days when he is experiencing the vision issues. I just don't know if it's something he knows at 10:00 in the morning during BP, or if it's something that happens in the 3rd inning. Or from time to time, it could probably be either. 

 

I do think that strategic off days are good for everyone, but more important for a 32 year old with that many innings behind the plate and a concussion history. There are plenty of guys who can play 1B to give him a day off. 

 

But, he's another year removed from the concussion. He and his trainer have figured out a few things that they think will help. The combination of those two things are certainly things that should lead to some hope. Maybe not of .320/.400/.500 or anything like that. The combination of age as well as overall deflated offensive numbers in baseball make that less likely. But maybe he can be a .285/.375/.425 player. I'd take that.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Playing baseball isn't a series of tiny concussive events.

Reading baseball forums can be, though.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Fair enough. I just think that if a player is claiming to be injured, there should be some discussion about playing time - at a minimum. In fact, after an injury, the first questions you ask are:

* Can he physically play?

And

* Can he play well?

 

If either of the answers are "no", then discussing playing time certainly is not silly.

If Mauer can play, he should play. The danger of receiving another concussion is either low enough for him to play every day or it's too high for him to play at all. I don't see a middle ground here.

 

But the "play well" argument is valid statement. If the team is worse with Mauer on the field on a daily basis, that needs to be a factor.

[TheLeviathan]

If Mauer can play, he should play. The danger of receiving another concussion is either low enough for him to play every day or it's too high for him to play at all. I don't see a middle ground here.

But the "play well" argument is valid statement. If the team is worse with Mauer on the field on a daily basis, that needs to be a factor.

I don't think that first part is true though. One of the things suspected to make concussion recovery harder is physical exertion. Is it impossible to think that a part time role may not aid his recovery? Or reduce symptoms?

 

Ultimately that is for Mauer and his doctor to decide but I don't think concussions are as simple as all ready to go vs completely unable to at all.

[Brock Beauchamp]

I don't think that first part is true though. One of the things suspected to make concussion recovery harder is physical exertion. Is it impossible to think that a part time role may not aid his recovery? Or reduce symptoms?

 

Ultimately that is for Mauer and his doctor to decide but I don't think concussions are as simple as all ready to go vs completely unable to at all.

Maybe that's possible but we're so far out from the concussion it seems like he'll either heal or he won't at this point.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Maybe that's possible but we're so far out from the concussion it seems like he'll either heal or he won't at this point.

 

That's what we keep thinking.

 

Until he announces publicly he needs sunglasses because the concussion is still affecting him.  I think people are turning this into some kind of anti-Mauer conspiracy when the real impetus for any questions comes from the fact that Mauer announced (several years removed from them) that the concussions are still a factor.

 

That makes most of the chatter here legitimate, if it's still not our decision to make ultimately.

[USAFChief]

Maybe that's possible but we're so far out from the concussion it seems like he'll either heal or he won't at this point.

He did say the vision thing is only occasional. If true, that might be a reason for resting him when those specific symptoms occur.

[DrNeau]

There needs to be no grey area here. Joe threw up the red flag himself. Having blurry vision and alluding to post-concussion side effects in the way he did got everyone's attention. and he refuses to say anything more.

 

Apparently, Joe was interviewed last week, and has clarified a few matters. Please see links to Mauer interview and summary below.

 

------------------------------------------------------------

Interview with Joe Mauer - 1500 ESPN Radio - "Sportswriter's Roundtable"

2/17/2016

 

Link to article: http://www.1500espn.com/sportswriters-roundtable-2/2016/02/ep-2-chuck-fletchers-plight-byung-ho-park-joe-mauer-zach-lavine/

 

Link to report on the interview: https://soundcloud.com/1500espn/ep-2

 

Brian Murphy (Pioneer Press) revealed he had spent the day with Joe Mauer last week. Some noteworthy quotes from that report:

 

1:50

Murphy: "Mauer revealed concussion symptoms continue to affect him at the plate, how his fatherhood and two seasons of declining production have also affected him.

 

Later in report...

Murphy: "No one has understood the level to which concussions has affected Joe Mauer."

 

22:10

Murphy: "Have the concussions inhibited or affected your ability to track pitches?"

Mauer: "Absolutely."

 

Murphy: "He had never revealed that before."

Interview took place at workout facility in Mauer Chevrolet, then back at his house.

 

Murphy: "I kind of pushed him on it a little bit and said in what way? Have you even really talked to Paul Molitor, Tom Brunansky (the hitting coach) or the front office about that?

He said 'no, I should probably do a better job about that.'"

 

Mauer went on to say the "glare" in the day is a problem, that the vision issues "come and go".

 

23:32

He went on to ask Mauer, "Is this an anomaly, or is somewhat of the new world order for you?"

 

Responded Mauer: "I've got some new techniques and exercises I've been working on, some neck stretching routines that I've been doing... it's arrested that a bit, I haven't had any symptoms at all this winter – where as I have working out in the past

 

27:00

"Not catching bullpens have affected Mauer's ability to see the ball."

"Not knowing the umpire has affected Mauer's hitting."

 

Summary of new info revealed from this interview:

* "Fatherhood" has affected Joe Mauer's production.

* No one has understood how much the concussions have affected Joe Mauer.

* The concussions have affected his ability to track pitches.

* Joe Mauer has never reported the vision issues to the Twins.

* The sun's glare is a "problem" for Joe Mauer.

* Joe Mauer has had "no symptoms" whatsoever in all of his workouts this winter. He revealed in this interview that he did experience symptoms in past off-season workouts, despite reporting in both 2014 and 2015 spring training that he was feeling "good". So, effectively, he is claiming to have a clean slate from this now.

* Not knowing the umpire has affected Joe Mauer's production.

 

So, it is now clear that Joe has not mentioned any of this to the Twins at all. That is simply stunning.