Plouffe and the Mid Market Payroll

[mazeville]

And you know this for a fact? Or are you surmising this because they didn't consult you?

If any team really wanted to acquire Plouffe, all they had to do is pick up a phone, offer Ryan several great players (which many posters seem to feel he is worth), and the deal would have been made. My belief is that no one was willing to part with anyone worthwhile to the Twins, so the front office maintained the misconception that they would never trade Plouffe. I think this July, if any team needs some offense at third base, Plouffe will be traded for a lot more than the Twins would have gotten this winter. Too many posters seem to believe that this team is close to a World Series run right now. Maybe in 2017, but not now. Too many holes yet to be filled.

p

 

1. They didn't consult me. I wish they did, but they didn't.

 

2. I didn't just make that contention up. Terry Ryan said that today. I tend to take him at his word.

 

3. I doubt this management team is waiting for the right market and are thus waiting until the trade deadline, but that's a scenario I didn't think about.

 

4. Twins aren't that close to winning a series. But you fill holes by trading from areas of strength ... Like 3B.

[mazeville]

The Frazier trade is more proof of my point than it is yours. Most of the analysis of the Frazier deal hovered between "meh" and "ugh" from the Reds' perspective.

This was *not* a good market for third baseman. Frazier had a combined 9.3 WAR over the past two seasons and failed to bring back a great prospect. That's when you hunker down and wait out the market, you don't just trade a guy for the sake of making a trade.

I agree that you don't trade a guy just to trade a guy, but TR said the team didn't even entertain offers. That suggests the team didn't even try. You don't know what the market is unless you test it.

 

Also, you have to analyze the Frazier trade based on what the Sox gave up and not what the Reds got because they liked the Dodgers prospects more. And based on analyses the Sox gave up the better prospects.

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

Twins should trade Plouffe.

 

They're not trading Plouffe. They didn't even consider it or entertain offers. Awful.

 

 

Let's be a bit careful in assuming what we do and do not know about the Twins and Plouffe.  We do not know if they did or didn't try to trade him.  Some think we didn't (and that's fine), but let's assume we know this as gospel truth, because we don't. 

 

What we do know is that the market for 3B sucked this year.  A superior player in Frasier netted very little on the market.  Based on that, I don't have a problem holding him for now, as someone may get hurt this spring or early in the season where a trade might come to Ryan under better terms when the Mets realize that David Wright isn't going to get better. 

 

Plouffe also may end up being a godsend if someone gets hurt or heaven forbid Sano struggles next year or gets hurt.  Who knows.

 

I hope he's traded for something, but I think the "just trade him for what we can get" is very short sighted.  Plouffe has value to this team, if for no other reason than insurance at this point, and as Brock pointed out, it's certainly not worth getting rid of him for a mid-level relief prospect.

[mazeville]

Let's be a bit careful in assuming what we do and do not know about the Twins and Plouffe.  We do not know if they did or didn't try to trade him.  Some think we didn't (and that's fine), but let's assume we know this as gospel truth, because we don't. 

 

What we do know is that the market for 3B sucked this year.  A superior player in Frasier netted very little on the market.  Based on that, I don't have a problem holding him for now, as someone may get hurt this spring or early in the season where a trade might come to Ryan under better terms when the Mets realize that David Wright isn't going to get better. 

 

Plouffe also may end up being a godsend if someone gets hurt or heaven forbid Sano struggles next year or gets hurt.  Who knows.

 

I hope he's traded for something, but I think the "just trade him for what we can get" is very short sighted.  Plouffe has value to this team, if for no other reason than insurance at this point, and as Brock pointed out, it's certainly not worth getting rid of him for a mid-level relief prospect.

I am not assuming. TR said today, per Mike Baradino, that he didn't entertain any offers. I get why we should be careful not to assume, and I'm not doing it here.

 

And I also agree that the team shouldn't give him away. But not even trying? You can't judge the market until you test it.

[TheLeviathan]

 

I find it a good thing they've built up this depth and potential versatility. Gives them some options if there are injuries or people don't perform.

 

I think many are making too much of this "versatility".  Nunez has "versatility" to play SS....but the hell if I want him doing it.  Santana can play CF....but we sure as hell better not be planning to start him out of the gate there.  

 

Merely playing someone at multiple positions does not constitute "versatility"

[TheLeviathan]

 

I am not assuming. TR said today, per Mike Baradino, that he didn't entertain any offers. I get why we should be careful not to assume, and I'm not doing it here.

And I also agree that the team shouldn't give him away. But not even trying? You can't judge the market until you test it.

 

Well said.  I get keeping Plouffe.  He's an ok player who isn't hurting the team because of his play and if you can't get a fair return in a trade - don't do it.

 

But not even considering the option and defaulting right away to moving Sano?  I can't capitalize UGH enough to properly relate my reaction.

[drjim]

I think many are making too much of this "versatility". Nunez has "versatility" to play SS....but the hell if I want him doing it. Santana can play CF....but we sure as hell better not be planning to start him out of the gate there.

 

Merely playing someone at multiple positions does not constitute "versatility"

So you reference the two clear bench guys. Obviously if they were locked down in a spot they would be starting. I'm not concerned about them one way or the other.

 

I was more thinking of how the Plouffe/Sano/Kepler/Park/Arcia/Mauer/Rosario/etc grouping will play out.

[TheLeviathan]

 

So you reference the two clear bench guys. Obviously if they were locked down in a spot they would be starting. I'm not concerned about them one way or the other.

I was more thinking of how the Plouffe/Sano/Kepler/Park/Arcia/Mauer/Rosario/etc grouping will play out.

 

It won't until at least one of them is gone.  Either way, you (and others) keep spinning this as "versatility" - playing someone at another position does not entail versatility.

 

We could play Brian Dozier at catcher, that doesn't magically become versatility.  

[drjim]

It won't until at least one of them is gone. Either way, you (and others) keep spinning this as "versatility" - playing someone at another position does not entail versatility.

 

We could play Brian Dozier at catcher, that doesn't magically become versatility.

Having Sano play LF and Dozier play C aren't remotely comparable, sorry.

 

Count me among those happy they kept Plouffe instead of trading him for peanuts and I'm perfectly content with Sano playing LF or RF. He won't be elite defensively but he'll be fine, and it won't impact his development as a hitter.

 

The rest will shake out in due time. Good to have options.

[TheLeviathan]

Having Sano play LF and Dozier play C aren't remotely comparable, sorry.

Count me among those happy they kept Plouffe instead of trading him for peanuts and I'm perfectly content with Sano playing LF or RF. He won't be elite defensively but he'll be fine, and it won't impact his development as a hitter.

The rest will shake out in due time. Good to have options.

Until he actually plays the outfield, and see how this outfield aligns, perhaps we should wait to declare a boon of roster versatility.

 

We heard the team touting Bartlett's "versatility" too and how did that turn out? All we have now is a position change forced by an attachment to one player the team didn't even bother to market.

[drjim]

 

Until he actually plays the outfield, and see how this outfield aligns, perhaps we should wait to declare a boon of roster versatility.

We heard the team touting Bartlett's "versatility" too and how did that turn out? All we have now is a position change forced by an attachment to one player the team didn't even bother to market.

 

I never bought into the Bartlett nonsense, so that's meaningless to me and about as relevant to this year as Dozier playing catcher.

 

Plouffe is a better defensive 3B, so it should be Sano who moves. And there are some reports floating out there that Sano has lost noticeable weight, so that is at least one significant positive out of this situation.

[TheLeviathan]

I never bought into the Bartlett nonsense, so that's meaningless to me and about as relevant to this year as Dozier playing catcher.

 

Plouffe is a better defensive 3B, so it should be Sano who moves. And there are some reports floating out there that Sano has lost noticeable weight, so that is at least one significant positive out of this situation.

Plouffe is also headed towards "time to release him" and Sano is a cornerstone.

 

Either way, stop hiding behind a spin job calling it versatility. You aren't versatile unless you can do more than be assigned a position. Anyone can be assigned a new position, playing it is another matter.

[drjim]

 

Plouffe is also headed towards "time to release him" and Sano is a cornerstone.

Either way, stop hiding behind a spin job calling it versatility. You aren't versatile unless you can do more than be assigned a position. Anyone can be assigned a new position, playing it is another matter.

 

Getting close to time to release Plouffe eh?

 

And your second point is no less an opinion than mine, and I think Sano is much more likely to adequate than a disaster.

[terrydactyls]

p

 

2. I didn't just make that contention up. Terry Ryan said that today. I tend to take him at his word.

 

Can you ptovide me a link to this? I've Googled Beradino talking about Plouffe, Ryan talking to Beradino, and Beradino talking about Plouffe and I can't find anything from 2016. I'm not in the Midwest so I don't get all the information you have by reading the Pioneer Press. The only quote I found was that the Twins had not had any substantial discussions on trading Plouffe.

[TheLeviathan]

Getting close to time to release Plouffe eh?

 

And your second point is no less an opinion than mine, and I think Sano is much more likely to adequate than a disaster.

After next year I hope to god he is, an extension would be beyond ridiculous.

 

You "think" he'll be good, but you don't know. How about until we do we hold off on praising our new found versatility? Haven't we failed at enough infielders in the outfield to kill that assumption?

[nicksaviking]

 

In any event, the Twins didn't even entertain offers. How do you know you won't get anything if you don't entertain offers?

 

While Ryan certainly wanted to make the implication that the Twins didn't entertain offers, that's not exactly what Berardino reported. He said they "did not entertain offers/make him available".

 

That doesn't in any way deny that they got offers, just that they didn't entertain them, something he would say regardless if the Twins actually did or didn't discuss moving him.

[drjim]

 

While Ryan certainly wanted to make the implication that the Twins didn't entertain offers, that's not exactly what Berardino reported. He said they "did not entertain offers/make him available".

That doesn't in any way deny that they got offers, just that they didn't entertain them, something he would say regardless if the Twins actually did or didn't discuss moving him.

 

I would be curious what the exact quote from Ryan was. A GM can parse words pretty well and there is no upside to say they considered shopping him.

 

I imagine they considered it, saw quickly what the market was and thought better of it. I don't think anyone on the team is above trading.

[jimmer]

 

I am not assuming. TR said today, per Mike Baradino, that he didn't entertain any offers. I get why we should be careful not to assume, and I'm not doing it here.

And I also agree that the team shouldn't give him away. But not even trying? You can't judge the market until you test it.

Mike Berardino ‏@MikeBerardino  3h3 hours ago
Ryan on Plouffe: "He wasn't going anywhere. It was just a matter of fitting all these guys into the puzzle."

 

Mike Berardino ‏@MikeBerardino  Jan 29
Asked Terry Ryan how much trade interest Trevor Plouffe generated. He said #MNTwins did not entertain offers/make him available.

 

I suppose both could be interpreted to mean something other than Ryan had no intention of moving him whatsover, but one really has to want to see it.  

 

In an event, I'm fine with keeping Plouffe and glad they didn't move him.  It was the Park signing, which moves Sano off DH, that was my issue. 

[Kwak]

Reread the thread on 3B depth--you will find there isn't any!  Plouffe isn't much (average at best)  but the drop-off in the franchise is frightening.  Maybe someone can be converted to 3B from within, maybe one of the "no-names" listed will make a huge jump in performance and become a true 3B prospect  (maybe pigs will fly) but until the Twins obtain another long-term solution at 3B--Ryan won't trade plouffe for less than a King's Ransom (and maybe pigs will fly).  

 

Sano at 3B?  The decision to move Sano to the OF is a vote of "non-confidence" in his 3B ability.  Oh and there is no one behind Sano (at 3B) in case he "has another injury"--evidence of which is growing.  Twins need to address the serious need at 3B, either by trade or draft--even if they sign Plouffe to an outrageous contract.  Maybe especially if they do so!

[Rosterman]

Well, the Twins once traded a guy named Dougie Mientkieiwcz because someone named Justin Morneau needed a place to play. Besides the need to save on the cost of sewing names on uniforms, they also traded someone named A.J. Pierzynski (who is still catching) because Joe Mauer needed a place to play (and then Joe got hurt and our depth at that position ws exposed).

 

Is Plouffe worth $7+ million in 2016. Will be be worth $11 million in 2017. Is he worth a multi-year contract (preferably for him 3 years) in the $30 million range. Those are the questions that will need answering if a team wants him from the Twins, and consideration given to what the return will be. Plouffe is now in one of those positions that he may be too expensive or not good enough...at least until he passes these arbitration years and becomes a $6-8 million journeyman or really pounds the ball and fools someone into a bigger and longer term contract. 

 

But for now, the Twins have no depth at third base. Better to keep Plouffe and if Plouffe goes down, you have Sano at third. And maybe you give Sano some time at third in the season to see if you do trust him at the corner.

 

And, yes, a healthy Sano and Arcia playing their correct positions would be a godsend to the Twins.

 

But that, and Santana in center field, is what spring training is all about.

[TheLeviathan]

Those quotes make it obvious: trading him was never an option on the table. Not trading him I can understand because of the trade market.....not even fielding calls?

 

Stupid.

[The Wise One]

 

Those quotes make it obvious: trading him was never an option on the table. Not trading him I can understand because of the trade market.....not even fielding calls?

Stupid.

How is it stupid when Frazier brought back so little? 

[ND-Fan]

Plouffe is stick the Twins need in this line up. Even with him in the lineup last year they were one of poorer scoring teams in American league. By trading him he would have weakened the Twins lineup further and if they would have traded him they would have been getting some future prospects nothing that would put another proven bat in this lineup. They need Sano's  bat in the lineup and putting him at third would mean they would need to find a bat equal to Plouffe bat for the outfield and they sure weren't going to sign outfielder with all the prospects they have coming up through the organization. So if they weren't going to sign another outfielder they were then go into this spring on counting on Rosario, Buxton, and Arcia or Kepler to provide big league at bats with all four  with less than full year of big league experience a recipe for disaster in my book. It also I believe is going to be key to this year how the Twins outfield bats for the coming year. Yes there's risk to Sano playing the outfield but there also is in him playing 3. Also Park is not proven replacement yet to be DH we could still see Sano filling that role yet this spring and early part of the year.  The Twins are going to be counting on number of young players this year Sano,Buxton, Rosario, Arcia, and Kepler. Also Vargas and Santana will probably will be needed for this year too. Winning at major league level usually takes time and learning so this year could be take a step backward or they could prove they are ready to make next step make it into the playoffs. 

[TheLeviathan]

How is it stupid when Frazier brought back so little?

 

You should reread my comment.

[terrydactyls]

Mike Berardino ‏@MikeBerardino 3h3 hours ago

Ryan on Plouffe: "He wasn't going anywhere. It was just a matter of fitting all these guys into the puzzle."

 

Mike Berardino ‏@MikeBerardino Jan 29

Asked Terry Ryan how much trade interest Trevor Plouffe generated. He said #MNTwins did not entertain offers/make him available.

 

I suppose both could be interpreted to mean something other than Ryan had no intention of moving him whatsover, but one really has to want to see it.

 

In an event, I'm fine with keeping Plouffe and glad they didn't move him. It was the Park signing, which moves Sano off DH, that was my issue.

 

So the "have no intention" quote was just your interpretation of what Beradino said that Ryan said (which reminds me of playing telephone in first grade - it never comes back the same). My interpretation is he didn't see anything he liked and to buoy Plouffe's ego, he says Plouffe wasn't going anwhere. To me, that's quite different.

[TheLeviathan]

 

So the "have no intention" quote was just your interpretation of what Beradino said that Ryan said (which reminds me of playing telephone in first grade - it never comes back the same). My interpretation is he didn't see anything he liked and to buoy Plouffe's ego, he says Plouffe wasn't going anwhere. To me, that's quite different.

 

Um, no, it's a perfectly reasonable understanding when you see something like "he wasn't going anywhere".  

 

 I don't know how much more plainly Terry Ryan could have said it short of: "No, terrydactyls1947, I really didn't have any intention, nor did I entertain offers"

 

I mean, at some point let's stop pretending Terry Ryan is someone he isn't: the guy is pretty forward and honest.  It's one of his best qualities in fact and one of the reasons I always tune in on Sundays to hear his segment on the radio.  So c'mon, let's stop trying to pretend Ryan said something he didn't and take the man at his very upfront word about it. 

 

And it's ok to be ok with the fact that they made the decision to keep Plouffe regardless.  It's also ok to think that's a mistake and they should've at least explored the market rather than immediately deciding to keep him and move Sano to the OF.  

[jorgenswest]

Plouffe is an asset. Trade him if you can get a good return. If not, state in the press that you were not looking to trade him. I think it shows the most respect to the player who has been a valuable and hard working member of the organization.

[terrydactyls]

Um, no, it's a perfectly reasonable understanding when you see something like "he wasn't going anywhere".

 

I don't know how much more plainly Terry Ryan could have said it short of: "No, terrydactyls1947, I really didn't have any intention, nor did I entertain offers"

 

I mean, at some point let's stop pretending Terry Ryan is someone he isn't: the guy is pretty forward and honest. It's one of his best qualities in fact and one of the reasons I always tune in on Sundays to hear his segment on the radio. So c'mon, let's stop trying to pretend Ryan said something he didn't and take the man at his very upfront word about it.

 

And it's ok to be ok with the fact that they made the decision to keep Plouffe regardless. It's also ok to think that's a mistake and they should've at least explored the market rather than immediately deciding to keep him and move Sano to the OF.

 

By not saying something definitive, his words are open to different opinions. This forum appears to be pretty evenly split on the true meaning. No need to get upset whenever someone disagrees with you.

[Squirrel]

Moderator note: Please accept that posters have varying opinions, even if you think them entirely implausible. There is no need for these subtle elitist dismissals. Agree to disagree. And don't take and make things personal when you do disagree

[TheLeviathan]

By not saying something definitive, his words are open to different opinions. This forum appears to be pretty evenly split on the true meaning. No need to get upset whenever someone disagrees with you.

I'm not sure you'll find a more definitive response by any GM than those responses to Bernadino. You can be of the opinion that it's a smoke screen to protect Plouffe, but those words are concise and declarative. Not much to parse there but unwavering support of a Plouffe.