Three Teams

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

If your argument is that he did a good job, and you can tell from the record......what will be your stance if they win 78 or less games next year? We've been told to be patient, that this takes time. Well, his entire career as GM has been filled with decent journeys (regular seasons), but no payoffs in the playoffs. I'm not arguing with you at all, I'm just asking you a question, if they are bad again next year, how many more years does TR get if you are the owner?

Not directed at me but if the Twins end up under .500 next season and it's not due to devastating injury (ie. bad offseason moves), I'd seriously consider moving on from Ryan immediately following the season.

 

I won't blame a GM for bad injury luck but other than that, there's no excuse for this team regressing in any way.

[USAFChief]

What would be your stance if they go undefeated and unscored upon? Do you believe membership would feel the need to move the goalposts again?

If we're talking "moving goalposts," you might want to reconsider your "83-79" post, which was in response to a post that asked us to consider the Ryan yearS, not year.

 

I'll save you the trouble...Ryan's tenure has a record that is sub-.500, and includes one playoff series win.

[dxpavelka]

 

Precise service time games aren't really part of the Twins "right way" either, see Joe Mauer 2004 or Miguel Sano this year (coming up 22 games after the assumed Super 2 date had passed).

 

But, pitcher wins and batting average FTW!  (By the way, in case you didn't notice, .248 is pretty close to league average these days, and when you add in some power and walks, it was actually a better overall hitting performance than even Suzuki's career high .288 AVG last year.)

Joe Mauer was a long time ago after they had traded their starting catcher to make room for him.  Sano's arrival time may have had as much to do woth missing the entire 2014 season as it did with the Super 2 date.  If "pretty close to the league average" excites you than I'm happy for you. 

[Willihammer]

The question I keep asking myself is, if we're approaching another 2007 moment where a new GM is needed to take the Twins over the hump, why should the next guy do better/worse than Bill Smith?

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

Joe Mauer was a long time ago after they had traded their starting catcher to make room for him.  Sano's arrival time may have had as much to do woth missing the entire 2014 season as it did with the Super 2 date.

That's exactly my point -- the Twins put other considerations (namely, their evaluation of a prospect's readiness) ahead of service time -- "we're going to do this the right way" as Chief put it.  The Cubs didn't do that with Kris Bryant.

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

That's exactly my point -- the Twins put other considerations (namely, their evaluation of a prospect's readiness) ahead of service time -- "we're going to do this the right way" as Chief put it.  The Cubs didn't do that with Kris Bryant.

 

Have we already forgotten the uproar when Kris Bryant was assigned to the minor leagues to open the season?  There was talk about a grievance at one point.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

Have we already forgotten the uproar when Kris Bryant was assigned to the minor leagues to open the season?  There was talk about a grievance at one point.

I certainly haven't forgotten -- the context of my post is that in keeping Bryant down for 12 extra days, the Cubs put service time games ahead of "doing things the right way" like the Twins generally operate.

[jokin]

 

I certainly haven't forgotten -- the context of my post is that in keeping Bryant down for 12 extra days, the Cubs put service time games ahead of "doing things the right way" like the Twins generally operate.

 

Who's to say the Cubs didn't do things the right way in the way that they operate? Has any agent ever won on this type of grievance?

[DocBauer]

Late to the party but my thoughts on a few matters here....FWIW.

 

1* I feel the Hughes signing is quite similar to the Aretha acquisition. I don't know who "wins" the scenario, nor do I think it necessarily matters. But if you are keeping score, I'd wait another season before proclaiming anything.

 

2* I think re-sign in Pelfrey, for whatever reason (s) shows the Twins as status quo. I think the signings of Hughes and Santana were out of the "normal" way of Twins thinking and show adaptation taking place.

 

I also believe the number of promoted youngsters as of late shows a change in philosophy as well.

 

3* I think it's very fair to say the Twins are a year behind the Astros, given all the information provided, and we're further hampered by lost seasons by both Sano and Buxton.

 

4* Something interesting to chew on or disregard, your choice. With all due respect to the Cubs (who I like) and Epstein (who I admire) the AL was +30 in wins during inter-league play this season. The NL had 5 teams that finished with fewer than 70 wins, and a 6th with 71. The AL had only 1 team with fewer than 70 wins.

 

I find this interesting when trying to compare who has done what, how quickly, who is ahead or behind, etc.

[spinowner]

 

The Cubs are essentially built to be an AL team. They have good position players on the bench, that could be starters elsewhere. 

 

 

        2nd Half Position wRC+/WAR (AGE):          

                      

C) Montero 119/1.0 (32) vs  Suzuki 71/.1 (31)             

1B) Rizzo 126/1.8(26)      vs   Mauer 97/.2 (32)

2B) Castro 109/1.1(25)   vs  Dozier 73/.4 (28)

SS) Russell 101/1.9(21)   vs Escobar 120/1.3 (26)

3B) Bryant 138/3.2 (23)   vs  Plouffe 92/.7 (29)

OF) Fowler 137/2.5 (29)   vs  Buxton 63/-.2 (21)

OF) Coghlan 124/1.7 (30) vs Hicks 96/1.0 (25)

OF) Soler 104/.2 (23)       vs  Rosario 98/1 (23)

DH) Scwarber 129/1.6 (22)    Sano 141/1.5 (22)

 

Bench:

 

Baez 98/.5 (22)

Jackson 87/.2 (28)

Denorfia 79/.3

L Stella  109/.3 (26)

 

 

Move Schwarber to DH, and slot in whomever you want and shift the lineup around and play anyone anywhere. That is what I like about them, not afraid to play guys out of "normal" position. Whereas Twins fans scoff at the idea of moving guys around to maximize our roster/lineup. So and so will never play there, so and so has never played there so its not going to happen, etc. 

 

However the Twins you would think would fit better in the NL, but they don't. 3 of our best hitters are Sano, Plouffe, and a forced to play Mauer. So, where do those 3 play in the NL? One either has to sit out, or someone needs to be moved to another position, and then who do they replace? 

 

I would safely bet on the Cubs young position player any day over the Twins. I still love the Twins guys, just like the Cubs guys more. 

 

 

Okay; You have to pick 10 guys from both teams for you now and future to start a new team:

 

C)  Scwarber (cheating), otherwise Montero over Suzuki

1B) Rizzo, over Mauer or Sano because he is BAT and GLOVE

2B) Castro, over Dozier  because age, upside, talent, defense going forward at 2B

SS) Russell, over Escobar if just for the defense and age, but think Russell will be the better hitter too

3B) Bryant, over Plouffe no explanation needed. Over Sano at 3B as well due to the defense and similar

OF) Buxton, over Fowler because of age, defense, and hope, otherwise production isn't close right now

OF) Rosario, over Coghlan because age and defense only, not sold on him being a great hitter over time

OF) Soler, over Hicks because of age, power, last year

DH) Sano, can play the corners in OF and IF too if Maddon were coach

ALT) Baez, over Dozier or Hicks because age, upside, power, defense, positional flexibility, and might go to the OF if needed.

 

That is 3 Twins to 7 Cubs. I cheated by putting Schwarber at C, but that was only so I could put Sano at DH or Rosario in the OF. I can concede Dozier over Castro due to Doziers last two 1st halfs, but think Castro will be the better overall player going forward (and the last half.) I wouldn't be surprised if Baez outperforms Dozier overall going forward of the next few years either, but he is 6 years younger. I'd take any 3 of those players right now, but would prefer the two young athletic guys going forward in the long run. 

 

Just a few different ways of looking at who is currently on the roster, without going into minors. It really doesn't look like the Cubs will really need too much from the minors even, especially of someone gets converted to the OF, like Bryant, Baez, or Castro to CF or LF, which has been discussed. It actually seems like the smart move, if they can't get full value for Castro or Baez in a trade. Wait a minute...they need a CF'er and we have 3 young guys that can play there very well right now, and they have 3 SS/2B that are all young and athletic? Hmmmm.

This is a very well-thought-out post. But this does not change the fact that the Cubs had an easier schedule than every AL team.

[Mike Sixel]

Carlos Corriea lost all of last year also......or have people forgotten that?

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Carlos Corriea lost all of last year also......or have people forgotten that?

He didn't exactly "lose" the season... He had nearly 300 PAs.

 

Compared to Buxton's 120 and Sano's 0, that's a considerable difference.

 

Plus, Correa is one guy. The Twins lost both of their top prospects in the same season. I'm not making excuses for the Twins but that's a tough hurdle to overcome, yet the team did just that by posting an 83 win season.

 

Could it have been better for the Twins? Sure, I think the bullpen roster management was atrocious... But imagine what having 550 PAs of Sano and maybe 300-400 of a slightly improved Buxton could have done for this team. Sano by himself probably gets them into the postseason, bullpen be damned.

 

Of course Sano and an improved bullpen would have been... nice.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

He didn't exactly "lose" the season... He had nearly 300 PAs.

 

Compared to Buxton's 120 and Sano's 0, that's a considerable difference.

 

Plus, Correa is one guy. The Twins lost both of their top prospects in the same season. I'm not making excuses for the Twins but that's a tough hurdle to overcome, yet the team did just that by posting an 83 win season.

 

Could it have been better for the Twins? Sure, I think the bullpen roster management was atrocious... But imagine what having 550 PAs of Sano and maybe 300-400 of a slightly improved Buxton could have done for this team. Sano by himself probably gets them into the postseason, bullpen be damned.

 

Of course Sano and an improved bullpen would have been... nice.

When Sano was injured, he was actually well ahead of Correa's timeline.  Even with last year's injury, there's really no reason he couldn't have had an additional 100 MLB PA this season like Correa.

 

Buxton was from the same draft as Correa, but he was also ahead of his timeline at the beginning of 2014, having reached and excelled in high-A for the latter half of 2013 and appearing in that year's AFL.  Even with the injury, their AA debuts were essentially on the same date.  Giving Buxton a few weeks to a month to shake off some rust should have put them about even.

[dxpavelka]

 

That's exactly my point -- the Twins put other considerations (namely, their evaluation of a prospect's readiness) ahead of service time -- "we're going to do this the right way" as Chief put it.  The Cubs didn't do that with Kris Bryant.

Your missing MY point.  My point is that the Cubs DID do that with Bryant at the start of the season even if only for a couple weeks.  And THAT is what I said Cubs fans were upset about 6 months ago.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

Your missing MY point.  My point is that the Cubs DID do that with Bryant at the start of the season even if only for a couple weeks.  And THAT is what I said Cubs fans were upset about 6 months ago.

The Cubs held Kris Bryant back, plainly and obviously due to service time.  They didn't hold him back due to any Twins-like "we're going to do this the right way" crap, as per your original comparison.  (The Twins, despite some fan accusations, haven't really played any notable service time games with their players.)

 

The Twins, the Cubs, the Yankees, and every other club have their own "right way" about doing things, but those ways don't necessarily resemble the Twins way in any significant degree.

[Mike Sixel]

I agree the Twins don't generally worry about service time, it's one of the things I really like about them.

 

As for Correa vs Buxton......they are eternally linked. They both had major injuries last year. One was awesome, one was not, this year. Everyone should prepare for them to be compared for a long, long time. But, to say that Houston had no setbacks that they overcame, and the Twins had NO SHOT because Sano and Buxton were hurt, as some seem to do here, well, I think that ignores what happened last year to Correa.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

When Sano was injured, he was actually well ahead of Correa's timeline.  Even with last year's injury, there's really no reason he couldn't have had an additional 100 MLB PA this season like Correa.

 

Buxton was from the same draft as Correa, but he was also ahead of his timeline at the beginning of 2014, having reached and excelled in high-A for the latter half of 2013 and appearing in that year's AFL.  Even with the injury, their AA debuts were essentially on the same date.  Giving Buxton a few weeks to a month to shake off some rust should have put them about even.

I don't disagree but I try to avoid getting into arguments that debate whether a player should have been up within a 3-4 week swing period. Two weeks here, two weeks there aren't enough to really get me worked up.

 

My point was that had Sano not suffered that injury, it's likely the Twins see him get substantial PAs in 2014 and come into 2015 with a roster spot. That's a huge difference over the course of a season even if Sano regresses (which I think is likely).

 

It's also somewhat likely Buxton would have seen a September call-up but given his 2015 struggles, his PAs may not have changed much this past season.

 

Losing both those players for a season was a pretty big shot to the 2015 Twins, both in performance potential and fan interest early in the season. As you indirectly pointed out in your post, the Twins were promoting those two guys pretty aggressively before their injuries.

[dxpavelka]

 

The Cubs held Kris Bryant back, plainly and obviously due to service time.  They didn't hold him back due to any Twins-like "we're going to do this the right way" crap, as per your original comparison.  (The Twins, despite some fan accusations, haven't really played any notable service time games with their players.)

 

The Twins, the Cubs, the Yankees, and every other club have their own "right way" about doing things, but those ways don't necessarily resemble the Twins way in any significant degree.

You're right that every team has their own "right" way of doing things.  Bottom line is that at at  the end of the day (or season) only one team's right way ends up being "the" right way.  And in ensuing years others will mimick that but it will still only work for one team each year.