What would Torii Hunter need for his career numbers to make the Hall of Fame?

[DaveW]

Unfortunately Johan didn't pitch for us enough, no matter how great he was. One of my favorite pitchers and Twins of all time though.

Hunter has only been in a twins uninform for 1.5 more full seasons then Johan.

 

Santana was also the best pitcher in the world for a 4-5 year stretch.

[jimmer]

 

Hunter has only been in a twins uninform for 1.5 more full seasons then Johan.

Santana was also the best pitcher in the world for a 4-5 year stretch.

Hunter played for the Twins in parts of 12 seasons and is now on his 10th full season. He was also drafted by us and was an every day player.

 

Santana played in parts of 8 seasons with the Twins, wasn't a full time starting pitcher with us until 2004, and left after 2007. And he was traded for.  

 

I'm a huge fan of Santana, and not much of a Hunter one outside of his defense his first round with us, but I just don't think Santana will even be considered for Twins HOF even if he was the best in the game for 5 years (4 with us), which he was IMO.

[USAFChief]

I think both Hunter and Santana are near locks for the Twins HOF.

 

Hunter probably won't get his number retired, Santana definitely won't.

[108 Double Stitches]

 

If the Twins miraculously make the playoffs and advance this year, does that change your thoughts?

 

I think the chances of both (1) The Twins making the 2015 world series and (2) Hunter making the HOF are both low to borderline impossible. 

 

But the one thing that would change my opinion, more than any other likely possibility, would be a deep 2015 playoff run.  I think it would help both:  

• add to his credentials because he and Molitor are the obvious changes from a 90 loss team from 2014  
• show off/remind HOF voters of his most affable side on a national stage. 

 

IMO, the career stats would have to be above 400 HRs and.or significantly closer to 3000 hats to really get HOF voters to support him in large enough numbers to get him in. 

[Thrylos]

 

I think both Hunter and Santana are near locks for the Twins HOF.

Hunter probably won't get his number retired, Santana definitely won't.

 

I would be disappointed if the Twins induct in the HOF someone who a. left them for more $, even though the Twins made him a fair offer as a free agent and b. when he hit free agency again, he returned in the division to play for the biggest Twins' rival.

 

Nah.  He does not belong.

[USAFChief]

I would be disappointed if the Twins induct in the HOF someone who a. left them for more $, even though the Twins made him a fair offer as a free agent and b. when he hit free agency again, he returned in the division to play for the biggest Twins' rival.

 

Nah.  He does not belong.

You're going to be disappointed.

[108 Double Stitches]

 

I would be disappointed if the Twins induct in the HOF someone who a. left them for more $, even though the Twins made him a fair offer

 

Yeah, that still kind of hurts still.  The contract wasn't for more money, just for more years. 

[DaveW]

The Twins low balled the hell out of Hunter with that offer, there is no reason why he should have taken it.

[stocker08]

Doubtful......but it wouldn't shock me if he made it in.  Let's see how his remaining years the MLB go.

[HitInAPinch]

15 Best Player not in Baseball Hall of Fame   (Fox Sports 1/7/2015)

 

Yes, there's 1 degenerate gambler, at least a couple certified steriod users and a couple more that MLB keeps chasing and can't prove.  AND the complete abomination that Joe Jackson isn't the HOF.

 

If Torii Hunter is better than these guys, then he gets in.

 

Barry Bonds
Pete Rose (now, not just a no, but a HELL NO)
Roger Clemens
Mike Piazza
Jeff Bagwell
Jeff Kent
Mark McGwire
Time Raines
Edgar Martinez
Sammy Sosa
Rafael Palmeiro
Fred McGriff
Larry Walker
Don Mattingly
Shoeless Joe Jackson

[Kwak]

 

15 Best Player not in Baseball Hall of Fame   (Fox Sports 1/7/2015)

 

Yes, there's 1 degenerate gambler, at least a couple certified steriod users and a couple more that MLB keeps chasing and can't prove.  AND the complete abomination that Joe Jackson isn't the HOF.

 

If Torii Hunter is better than these guys, then he gets in.

 

Barry Bonds
Pete Rose (now, not just a no, but a HELL NO)
Roger Clemens
Mike Piazza
Jeff Bagwell
Jeff Kent
Mark McGwire
Time Raines
Edgar Martinez
Sammy Sosa
Rafael Palmeiro
Fred McGriff
Larry Walker
Don Mattingly
Shoeless Joe Jackson

There's another CF, one without a whiff of "taint", whose career suggest HOF--but is not inducted.

Vada Pinson.

If you believe Hunter's career was better than Pinson's--then there something to talk about.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

I would be disappointed if the Twins induct in the HOF someone who a. left them for more $, even though the Twins made him a fair offer as a free agent and b. when he hit free agency again, he returned in the division to play for the biggest Twins' rival.

I will never fault someone for going to a team that is not only willing to give them more money, but give them obscenely more money.

 

Are we really going to fault Hunter for not passing up tens of millions of dollars? It's not like he left for a 1 or 2% raise. He left because the Angels threw piles of money at him, money the Twins refused to offer.

[jimmer]

IMO, I think the Years is what appealed to Hunter more than anything. The Angels offered him 5 years, Twins offered him 3?  Plus the Twins waited a long time to make him an offer to begin with when he wanted a deal prior to his last season.  Then there was the Castillo trade.

[Kwak]

 

IMO, I think the Years is what appealed to Hunter more than anything. The Angels offered him 5 years, Twins offered him 3?  Plus the Twins waited a long time to make him an offer to begin with when he wanted a deal prior to his last season.  Then there was the Castillo trade.

All of you are overlooking the obvious:  Anaheim, CA and all of the resources to have a consistent winner;  SoCAL generally prefered by players over MN; and the Twins were in rebuild.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

IMO, I think the Years is what appealed to Hunter more than anything. The Angels offered him 5 years, Twins offered him 3?  Plus the Twins waited a long time to make him an offer to begin with when he wanted a deal prior to his last season.  Then there was the Castillo trade.

Yep. I was fine with Hunter walking away. I thought the Angels' deal looked pretty bad from a financial standpoint (though they could easily afford it while the Twins could not) and thought Hunter would have been a fool to pass it up.

[jimmer]

 

All of you are overlooking the obvious:  Anaheim, CA and all of the resources to have a consistent winner;  SoCAL generally prefered by players over MN; and the Twins were in rebuild.

The Twins were in rebuild?  I missed that one. I think sarcasm is being used here ;-)

[drjim]

 

IMO, I think the Years is what appealed to Hunter more than anything. The Angels offered him 5 years, Twins offered him 3?  Plus the Twins waited a long time to make him an offer to begin with when he wanted a deal prior to his last season.  Then there was the Castillo trade.

 

It was 5/90 from Angels, 3/45 from Twins, 5/75 from a handful of other teams.

[Twodogs]

 

Looking at Torii Hunters overall numbers he appears to be getting close to the career numbers a lot of Hall of famers have put up in their careers.  There is also some distance from where he is now and some of those numbers meaning I think he will hit some but not all of them.  So can Torii Hunter put up enough numbers to make the Hall of Fame?

 

How many hits would he need?  3000 is the automatic number and he won't reach that but 2600 to 2800 is a possibility.  he is at 2391 right now and could finish the season around 2500. 

 

most power hitters have at least 1000 career extra base hits.  Torii is at 866 and could be approaching 900 by the end of the season.  (I do believe if he hits this number the other metrics will take care of themselves but I have a hard time seeing him much over 950 if he plays all of next year)

 

There are very few non Hall of Famers with more than 1525 RBIs.  I think Hunter would have to hit this number regardless to get in.  He is at 1349 and is on pace to be over 1390 at the end of the season.  another 80-90 RBI season next year would have him around 50 RBI shy so he would need to be able to play 2 seasons beyond this one, with one of them full time and the other at least half time.

 

He has 194 stolen bases and 200 is a nice round number.  While I don't think the stolen bases matter that much, 200 is a nice round number that helps make the case of a complete 5 tool player.

 

He has 9 gold gloves so this helps make up some ground for non elite but very good offensive numbers.  So would the Twins making the World Series this year and him playing well in the playoffs but we cant account for that yet.  He also has made a lot of friends amongst the voters by always being available for interviews. 

 

I think it is becoming obvious that Torii will play next year.  the question is will he hit enough next year to be able to play one more season beyond that to get the counting stats needed to justify an induction.  I think his individual numbers are not compelling enough as he is a career 10-15% above average and none of the numbers Hits, Runs, HR, RBI, stand out, but as a total package including his defense from earlier in his career and intangibles like dealing with the media make his case a fun one to watch as I can see him being on the ballot for close to 10 years before being voted in. 

 

I can see Torii finishing somewhere in the neighborhood of these numbers if he plays through the end of next season full time.

 

Hits 2630 - 2650

2Bs 530 - 535

HR  370 -375

XBH 940 -950

RBI 1475 -1490

Runs Scored 1350 - 1360

SB 200

 

9 gold gloves

5 or 6 time all star

2 silver slugger awards

5 time MVP candidate including a 6th place vote (plus if he gets consideration this year)

 

Does this get him in and if not what if anything would?

Well I never thought of Torii Hunter as a Hall of Famer, but one thing in his favor, (maybe), is the fact that he played a chunk of his career during the Steroid era.  An era where guys like Roger Clemons, A-Rod, Barry Bonds, all guys that are Hall of Fame worthy but will not come close to sniffing enough votes for election due to the allegations of Steroids.  So with that in mind, the player pool may be diluted enough for a guy like Hunter to make it.  He played his career correctly, no allegations of Roids or crazy gambling addictions or any other crazy things.  He could sneak in.  Although sometimes I question whether all reporters really do like him, he is always available to the media and talks a lot to those guys but he has been critisized for some of his beliefs in the past.  So those may haunt him a little but with all of those Steroid era guys basically out, he may have a shot??

[Kwak]

 

The Twins were in rebuild?  I missed that one. I think sarcasm is being used here ;-)

Yes--they even stated that.  Rotation nearly changed 100%, new CF and LF, most of the infield shuffled/changed--so yes I believe that's a rebuild.

[Pius Jefferson]

I don't think not being linked to PEDs does much to help anyone who's not a slam dunk. Fred McGriff played in the steroid era and came up 7 home runs shy of 500. You'd think being clean would help but it hasn't. The only way he's getting in his buying a ticket or being voted in by the veterans committee. 

 

 

[LaBombo]

Hunter's case is interesting because of how much it relies on defense, career longevity, and intangibles/personality.

 

His defense is not competitive with some of the all time best glove-only savants elected by the veterans committee, but it doesn't need to be, since he was a very good hitter.  It only needs to be among the best of his era.

 

Nine Gold Gloves is an impressive accomplishment that can't be explained away entirely by reputation, and few would argue that Hunter was an excellent center fielder.  However, the numbers tell a different story.  The standard caveats about defensive metrics apply, but the bottom line is that they don't appear to support the notion of Hunter as a HOF candidate.

 

Older stats like RF/9 confirm Hunter as a standout in CF early in his career, placing him first in the AL in 2000 and 2001.  But RF9 pegs him as good but not great for the rest of his CF days, consistently placing him 5th or so in the AL.  Total Zone is even more discouraging, grading his CF range as neutral or negative in all but his brilliant 2001 and anomalous 2011 seasons, and totaling a dismal -32 for his career.

 

That leaves longevity and personality/intangibles.  Hunter has had a long career and has managed to age gracefully while also finding his way into the postseason on occasion.  But he hasn't been a cornerstone of a championship team, and counting stats enhanced by longevity don't carry the same weight with younger, more sabre-oriented HOF voters that they do with the old timers.

 

That leaves personality.  As a sort of silly effort to "quantify" personality, here's a half- (or perhaps even quarter-) arsed comparable for Hunter (JAWS and WAR career totals vs. /average HOF career totals at their primary position).

 

Hunter:

 

Gray Ink  -  29

HoF Monitor -  58

HoF Standards -  33

WAR-  50.8 /70.4

JAWS-  41.0/57.2

 

"Player B"

 

Gray Ink  -  67

HoF  Monitor  -  68

HoF  Standards  -  33

WAR  -  44.6/69.3

JAWS  -  41.5/56.9

 

All in all, Player B's HoF scores represent an aggregate very similar to Hunter's.  Player B did not win multiple GG's like Hunter but was widely regarded as an excellent up-the-middle defender in his prime.  He was a starter for a championship team, but his career ended several seasons short of what Hunter has amassed so far.

 

What does all this tell us about the role of personality in the HoF chances of a player with borderline numbers?  It depends almost entirely on how you feel about electing Chuck Knoblauch to the Hall of Fame.

[jimmer]

 

Yes--they even stated that.  Rotation nearly changed 100%, new CF and LF, most of the infield shuffled/changed--so yes I believe that's a rebuild.

I must have missed the quote when they stated that.

[goulik]

I think it was more of a retool than a rebuild but that is semantics. The main reason was we were still in the dome and not paying top players top money. When they came to their contract years, they were traded or they walked. Hunter and Santana were our top players, neither was getting paid and both were gone. That's how we operated in the Dome.

[Kwak]

 

I think it was more of a retool than a rebuild but that is semantics. The main reason was we were still in the dome and not paying top players top money. When they came to their contract years, they were traded or they walked. Hunter and Santana were our top players, neither was getting paid and both were gone. That's how we operated in the Dome.

I don't think "being in the dome" was the reason--the Twins (believed) they had a wealth of starting pitching, guys who were "ready".  So much wealth, that they traded Garza (and tossed-in Bartlett like he was the "Duensing" of his day) to obtain Delmon Young.  They also had acquired "hot prospects" from the Santana trade:  Carlos Gomez, who was named the new CF, two SPs deemed "almost ready" (Humber and some forgotten bust they had high-hopes for) and a very young "A" ball pitcher.  A new 3B, Punto was installed at SS, and the late '07-installed 2B (whats-his-name who bounced up and down about 5 times) who replaced Casilla.  So, rebuild?  How many guys with 1-year  or (less) in the MLs are required to classify as a "rebuild"?

 

As for the Twins--I think it was Bill Smith (yes, the much-maligned) referring to the '08 as a year of rebuilding.

Little did they know how close they really were--but... '08 was a rebuild.

[HitInAPinch]

 

There's another CF, one without a whiff of "taint", whose career suggest HOF--but is not inducted.

Vada Pinson.

If you believe Hunter's career was better than Pinson's--then there something to talk about.

I'm a little tainted on Pinson.  In the early 70's I got to watch a lot of him on TV.  He was a classic 'hanger on' who openly stated he wanted to play as long as it would take to get the 3,000 hits that guarantee's election into the HOF.  As I recall, Pinson got hurt a lot in those final 4 years.  I hate seeing a player go out like that.  Pinson's career numbers aren't that great.  Just another great guy with good stats who won't make the HOF.  I hope Torii retires before he becomes another 'hanger on'.

[Pius Jefferson]

Jimmy Wynn is more deserving than Torii Hunter and he only makes the Hall of Very Good. 

 

A  contemporary to Hunter was Bernie Williams who was off the ballot after his first year.

[Zachary]

If you could take his numbers and add in his positive attitude, respect he's garnered from the league and other players and his fan appreciation, he'd be a lock. I'm not entirely schooled on the matter, but I don't think those attributes will count. IMO, he is the type of guy and has the good enough career to deserve it. He's a great ambassador to the game and I believe he's the type of guy I'd want representing the MLB in the HoF. I have a hunter jersey and I always will. I know I'll be comfortable putting that on until the day I die. He's in the fans Hall of Fame, at least.

 

For the record on Hunter, other than his good numbers this year, I think a lot more credit should go his way as to why we are currently over 500 and still expecting more. That game he got ejected? I'm convinced he was trying to single handedly reverse othe slump we got ourselves in at the beginning of June by firing up the team.

[John Kelsey]

On the retired numbers topic, I'm leaning towards no with Torii and Johan.

 

Mauer is a lock.

 

Anyone think Morneau has a chance?

[DaveW]

Speaking of Morneau, I wonder if he is one of those players cited above who would have nothing but positive things to say about Hunter.

[Kirby_waved_at_me]

I think Tony O or Jim Kaat deserve to be in the Hall of Fame before Torii Hunter.

 

Kaat had more gold gloves, was a competent hitter (last Twins' pitcher to hit a home run), and had a solid career. But I think Kaat is more likely at this point to get in as a broadcaster than a player.

 

Hunter will get some votes - I agree that he's in the same conversation as guys like Bernie Williams, Andruw Jones, and Jim Edmonds - Center Fielders who were pretty good, but maybe not a Hall of Famer.

 

The Hall of Fame have several players enshrined that are not very good, and they were voted in by the veteran's committee. Again, I think that Torii will get some votes, but not elected by the BBWAA - He might get more traction with the players later on, but you can see that they've been dragging their feet with Tony Oliva, so I wouldn't hold my breath for Hunter's induction.