Hunter on Joe West

[RealTwinsFan357]

I like how we brought in Hunter and Santana to stabilize the outfield and mentor the young players-teaching them to use steroids and take personal shots at umpires is such a great philosophy

[DaveW]

Good for hunter. West is a clown, hunter also is a good leader in this regard by showing some fight, also takes a lot of the pressure off the rest of the team for their otherwise lackluster opening day.

[David HK]

Torii was a dick.  He should have conducted himself in a far more professional manner.  

Joe West was a dick.  He should have conducted himself in a far more professional manner.  

But come one, it's a 9th inning, game-ending situation.  Why simply cause controversy by not appealing to first?  Understand the gravity of the situation, even if you're sure of the call.  Joe West just seems to go out of his way to court controversy whenever there's an opportunity.  At least he didn't get all up in Torii's face, but there he goes again, making a ballgame the Joe West show.  Come on, MLB, give him some damn direction, or get him the hell out.

[Kirby_waved_at_me]

It's never fun when a game ends on a close call - the team was down 4 to nothing, and there were 2 outs and 2 strikes.... it had been a pretty one sided contest to that point. Hughes pitched decently well, and it might have been enough to earn a win under different circumstances. The Twins' offense was stifled by Price and some uncharacteristically great defensive play from the Tigers.

 

But it was also in the midst of the closest thing to a rally the Twins had all afternoon - there were two runners on - the tying run was on deck. So, it was a pretty important moment for a call to be decided in that manner.

 

The outcome of the game was probably not changed as a result of Hunter striking out vs. getting another pitch.

 

You just hope that the last play is dictated more by the players on the field than by the umpires. It's a bummer, but the live to fight another day. They can still win the series!

[Todd_L]

I'm probably in a small minority, but I didn't think it was that bad of a call by West.  Looking at the slowed down version of the check swing it's still very hard to tell whether Hunter "struck at" the pitch or not.  In real time, it's easy to see how West could have called it plus West likely had the best view in the house.  

 

This all notwithstanding the fact that the Twins flailed away for almost 9 whole innings and put no runs on the board.  It's hard to get too indignant about a single marginal call down 4-0 in the 9th when the team as a whole was roundly outplayed. 

[LimestoneBaggy]

 

I saw the replay and heard Torii's comments and I think he's right. Joe Wes screwed him and the team out of a late opportunity. Any other umpire in baseball would have appealed to the 1B umpire. I don't know if its senioritis or an empty belly or what but Joe West should probably just retire already because every other game he officiates turns into a sideshow.

 

I also believe West made the wrong call, and then compounded it without an appeal in the situation. I can understand why Torii would be upset about the call immediately after it, but I do believe West handled that dispute well. 

 

Here's my issue with this entire thing (I'm quoting the hammer here merely to be illustrative of that side of the discussion), Torii had plenty of time to simmer down and be a team leader. He could have vocally disagreed to a reasonable limit when the reporter questioned him, and the team could have sent in a well-written disagreement to the league (primarily about why he didn't appeal in the situation). The fact that Torii went the tried and true route of saying the umpire had something else to do was unprofessional and a cheapshot (and scapegoating when the team didn't play well). This isn't a leadership quality, this is how to be a jerk 101. I believe Torii is better than that. 

 

Also, I've been a big Hunter fan pretty much his whole career.

[gil4]

 

I don't think check swings can be appealed.

 

Rule 9.02© Comment:

...

 

The manager or the catcher may request the plate umpire to ask his partner for help on a half
swing when the plate umpire calls the pitch a ball, but not when the pitch is called a strike.

 

Joe West should not have called it a swing unless he definitely saw a swing, but once he did call it a swing, that was the ballgame.

 

Note - this was from the 2013 rules because that's the last version I have downloaded, but I doubt it has changed.  I know the updated rules are online, but the PDF is easier to search. 

[Willihammer]

A well written lettter. Yes I'm sure that would sting almost as badly as the find Hunter's going to get. Seriously I would love to read a tally of the fines handed down to  players, managers, coaches, etc. for behavior involving a Joe West call. I bet it numbers well into the hudreds of thousands.

 

Joe West blows a call and gets lunch. My sympathy for him is zero.

[jimmer]

 

Rule 9.02© Comment:

...

 

The manager or the catcher may request the plate umpire to ask his partner for help on a half
swing when the plate umpire calls the pitch a ball, but not when the pitch is called a strike.

 

Joe West should not have called it a swing unless he definitely saw a swing, but once he did call it a swing, that was the ballgame.

 

Note - this was from the 2013 rules because that's the last version I have downloaded, but I doubt it has changed.  I know the updated rules are online, but the PDF is easier to search. 

I pointed this out earlier on a later post than the one you're responding to, and others elaborated. Thanks for the actual numbered reference.

[jimmer]

 

I also believe West made the wrong call, and then compounded it without an appeal in the situation. 

Once he called a strike, there is no appeal, though, by rule. So at that point, even if he wanted to get help, he couldn't.

 

If West hadn't made the strike call, because he didn't think Torii swung, the defense then could have appealed.

[jimmer]

 

Torii was a dick.  He should have conducted himself in a far more professional manner.  

Joe West was a dick.  He should have conducted himself in a far more professional manner.  

 

In this particular case, how was West being a 'dick'.  West made a call, Hunter went off, and he didn't engage Hunter like he normally does. In this instance, how was West unprofessional?

[Winston Smith]

For all baseball fans a rule book is less than $10. Or if you want a pdf download is free at MLB web site. Get one!

[gil4]

 

'Initially, the home plate umpire must determine if a swing was checked or not checked. If he indicates that it was checked, an appeal can be made by the catcher or his manager, and the home plate umpire CAN then make a request to either the 1st or 3rd base umpire to make the call as to whether or not the swing was indeed checked.'

 

I don't see anything about the batter being able to appeal.  I also don't see where it HAS to be granted. Anyone have something else from the rules?

 

More from rule 9:02 comment:

 

Appeals on a half swing may be made only on the call of ball and when asked to appeal, the
home plate umpire must refer to a base umpire for his judgment on the half swing. Should the base
umpire call the pitch a strike, the strike call shall prevail.

 

 

That was a change a few years back.  ("A few" can be relative - I don't remember exactly when they changed it.)  NFHS and most others still say the plate umpire has the option, but MLB rules (and those that use MLB rules as their core, such as Babe Ruth leagues*) specify the plate umpire must ask if the appeal is made. 

 

 

* - I last umpired Babe Ruth league 30 years ago, so this might have changed.  Their rulebook was essentially by-laws modifying MLB rules (changes mainly dealing with substitution rules and league structure.) 

 

[jimmer]

 

More from rule 9:02 comment:

 

Appeals on a half swing may be made only on the call of ball and when asked to appeal, the
home plate umpire must refer to a base umpire for his judgment on the half swing. Should the base
umpire call the pitch a strike, the strike call shall prevail.

 

 

That was a change a few years back.  ("A few" can be relative - I don't remember exactly when they changed it.)  NFHS and most others still say the plate umpire has the option, but MLB rules (and those that use MLB rules as their core, such as Babe Ruth leagues*) specify the plate umpire must ask if the appeal is made. 

 

 

* - I last umpired Babe Ruth league 30 years ago, so this might have changed.  Their rulebook was essentially by-laws modifying MLB rules (changes mainly dealing with substitution rules and league structure.) 

Exactly. And thanks for the quoting the change from can to must on defense appeal quote I gave earlier. In either event, if the initial call is strike, then that's that.

 

I've umpired a lot over the last 25 years and stopped a couple years ago.

[jorgenswest]

Again...

 

Go look at the strike zone map for the game. Joe West had one of the more consistent strike zones you will see.

 

http://www.brooksbaseball.net/pfxVB/zoneTrack.php?month=4&day=6&year=2015&game=gid_2015_04_06_minmlb_detmlb_1%2F&prevDate=0406

 

Pick another game like the Blue Jays Yankees

 

http://www.brooksbaseball.net/pfxVB/zoneTrack.php?month=4&day=6&year=2015&game=gid_2015_04_06_minmlb_detmlb_1%2F&prevDate=0406

 

Joe West wasn't perfect and he missed on that check swing. He did a great job with the zone yesterday and he handled Torii at the end of the game well.

[jokin]

 

Again...

Go look at the strike zone map for the game. Joe West had one of the more consistent strike zones you will see.

http://www.brooksbaseball.net/pfxVB/zoneTrack.php?month=4&day=6&year=2015&game=gid_2015_04_06_minmlb_detmlb_1%2F&prevDate=0406

Pick another game like the Blue Jays Yankees

http://www.brooksbaseball.net/pfxVB/zoneTrack.php?month=4&day=6&year=2015&game=gid_2015_04_06_minmlb_detmlb_1%2F&prevDate=0406

Joe West wasn't perfect and he missed on that check swing. He did a great job with the zone yesterday and he handled Torii at the end of the game well.

 

All well and good. But he's still universally acknowledged as one of the worst umpires, year-in, year-out.  Bad enough for missing and botching important calls- which has happened in practically every single game that I've ever seen him perform his duties- .... but especially for the worst thing an umpire can do- making his own ego-gratification more important than the game itself.

[gunnarthor]

Somewhat ironic that Tiger fans are defending Torii over West.  They must have a hidden agenda.

 

http://www.blessyouboys.com/2015/4/6/8356073/detroit-tigers-minnesota-twins-torii-hunter-joe-west?_ga=1.91631130.1468869491.1403014430

 

"Starting out at odds with an umpire with 161 games to go likely won't carry over through the whole season, but there's likely to be some frustration and maybe a little bitterness. In Businessweek's Umpire Ranking, among 50 umpires with at least 2,500 ball-strike calls, West ranked dead last in 2014. Whether Hunter went or not may be up for debate for the forseeable future. But Hunter wouldn't be the first to have a beef with West, especially when the umpire has a history of making questionable calls in the past. But for all the negativity surrounding the call in the first game of the regular season, Hunter had nothing but good things to say about his former teammate. And as for the fans in right field? They were "awesome," and Hunter was happy to be back in Detroit."

 

The Tiger fans also pointed out that West had asked for help on the previous pitch (a ball) where it looked like Hunter offered more.  Oh well.  No baseball today.

[gil4]

 

I pointed this out earlier on a later post than the one you're responding to, and others elaborated. Thanks for the actual numbered reference.

 

I think I picked the wrong one of your posts to reply to after I read through the list.  I was just trying to confirm/support something you had said.

 

gil4  (just another USAF MSgt (Ret) and overall pain in the behind.)

[Guest]

There were a couple of earlier comments about umpire accountability.  I don't think there is any basis for  holding an umpire to account over one judgment call, even if it was a terrible call.  

 

However, I do wonder whether MLB does a sufficient job of ensuring the best umpires have jobs in the major leagues, or whether a tenure culture exists.  This comment is anecdotal only, but I know a minor league ump who says it is far harder to break into the majors as an ump as a player.  Just as an MLB team should strive to field the best team, so should the league strive to put the very best umpires on the field.  In this age of metrics and data, we certainly can tell who are the most accurate umpires.  Why aren't the poorest 10% performing umpires in a season either released or optioned to the minors?

[jimmer]

 

I think I picked the wrong one of your posts to reply to after I read through the list.  I was just trying to confirm/support something you had said.

 

gil4  (just another USAF MSgt (Ret) and overall pain in the behind.)

I got your intent, buddy.  It's all good.  It was nice to see the actual rule quoted.

[jimmer]

 

 Why aren't the poorest 10% performing umpires in a season either released or optioned to the minors?

We don't publicly know what happens with their evaluations and likely will never know. But there are evaluations done, just like any other job, and they do have a union and fall under their own CBA.

[jokin]

 

.  Why aren't the poorest 10% performing umpires in a season either released or optioned to the minors?

 

The umpire's union is strong.

[Mike Sixel]

On Hunter, when was he last on a BAD team? I really think he could struggle emotionally on this roster.

[Tibs]

As a home plate umpire, you never say a batter goes on a check swing unless it is completely obvious. A catcher appeals to a base ump when the home plate umpire doesn't call anything and the catcher thinks he might have went. This is a call I wouldn't even expect to see from my fellow umpires at weekend tournaments, yet this guy has been an MLB umpire for a while now. That's just terrible.

[gil4]

 

 Why aren't the poorest 10% performing umpires in a season either released or optioned to the minors?

 

That's an interesting idea.  You might have to let someone have a bad year, but maybe anyone in the bottom x% two years in a row.  That could lead to some taunting from the fans - "hey Joe, this ain't Rochester, but if you keep it up, next year it will be."

[jimmer]

 

As a home plate umpire, you never say a batter goes on a check swing unless it is completely obvious. A catcher appeals to a base ump when the home plate umpire doesn't call anything and the catcher thinks he might have went. This is a call I wouldn't even expect to see from my fellow umpires at weekend tournaments, yet this guy has been an MLB umpire for a while now. That's just terrible.

The rule has been posted.  The umpire makes a call and IF that call is 'ball', then the catcher/catcher's manager can appeal and if he does the umpire must do the appeal.  Now, the home plate umpire COULD have asked for help right away IF he wasn't sure (at least I see nothing prohibiting that), but there is nothing in the rule that says he has to. Either way, he still makes a call.

[gunnarthor]

 

On Hunter, when was he last on a BAD team? I really think he could struggle emotionally on this roster.

He was on losing teams in 99, 2000, 07 and 2010 and only the first two would be bad, the other two were within a few games of .500 (which is still where I think this team finishes).  

 

[Mike Sixel]

 

He was on losing teams in 99, 2000, 07 and 2010 and only the first two would be bad, the other two were within a few games of .500 (which is still where I think this team finishes).  

 

I hope your prediction is correct.

[stringer bell]

 

Again...

Go look at the strike zone map for the game. Joe West had one of the more consistent strike zones you will see.

http://www.brooksbaseball.net/pfxVB/zoneTrack.php?month=4&day=6&year=2015&game=gid_2015_04_06_minmlb_detmlb_1%2F&prevDate=0406

Pick another game like the Blue Jays Yankees

http://www.brooksbaseball.net/pfxVB/zoneTrack.php?month=4&day=6&year=2015&game=gid_2015_04_06_minmlb_detmlb_1%2F&prevDate=0406

Joe West wasn't perfect and he missed on that check swing. He did a great job with the zone yesterday and he handled Torii at the end of the game well.

From my vantage point in my living room, West had a good day calling balls and strikes.  I thought he gave Price a couple pitches when facing Schafer (who later singled), but overall he was competent.  West's decision at the end of the game was not the right way to go about things when another ump has a better angle, but he probably was sure what he saw. 

 

I've always thought of Joe West as one of the poorer umps, and one who makes the game about him, but he did handle himself properly. 

[Tibs]

 

The rule has been posted.  The umpire makes a call and IF that call is 'ball', then the catcher/catcher's manager can appeal and if he does the umpire must do the appeal.  Now, the home plate umpire COULD have asked for help right away IF he wasn't sure (at least I see nothing prohibiting that), but there is nothing in the rule that says he has to. Either way, he still makes a call.

 

When I said "home plate umpire doesn't call anything" that is referring to him calling it a ball and not a swinging strike. You don't call a swinging strike from behind the plate unless it is obvious.