Hicks cut

[bird]

 

I'd love to see references to a strong contingent of scouts saying that Gibson was not good enough to be called up in the Majors in 2013.   Here is evidence of the opposing view.  Remember, he was out for one season with TJ surgery.  So, yes, he was not ready until 2013.  His first pro season, 2010, he went from high A to AAA.  I cannot think of a scout inside or outside the Twins' organization who would say that was disappointed by Gibson.  2011 was hurt. 2012 was recovering for most of the season. 

 

Also, you have to take things in perspective.  We are not talking about a contenting team.  We are not even talking about an average team.  We are not even talking about a bad team.  We are talking about the worst (or the second worst) team in the majors.  Period.  99+96+96+92.

 

If a first round draft pick cannot be trusted to make the rotation of that team because of journeymen like Correia and Deduno and Diamond and PJ Walters and Hendricks and Hernandez and the like, something is very very wrong (and, of course it is, just look at their record.)  

 

About being horrible when he was called up:  He was better than Worley, Diamond (who made the opening day roster), Walters, Hendricks and Hernandez.  On a 96 loss team.  If you can afford to call up the last 3, you should be able to call up Gibson...

You DO realize, thrylos, that the one opposing view you evidenced is your own, right?

 

Lots of people with equal expertise to your own thought that Gibson needed to work on some things. I'm perplexed as to how people can conclude that the Twins mishandled Gibson's path. 

 

The team is not the second worst in baseball in 2015, at least not yet. Citing four past years of losses and saying something like that doesn't lend anything to an assessment. It's like having the school nurse tell you your kid is the shortest pupil in fifth grade by averaging the kid's heights since kindergarten. 

[bird]

 

you believe guys who spend only 2-3 months in the minors get significantly better to the point their readiness level tilts from not being able to compete at the major league level to being able compete at the major league level?  You don't think that maybe , if promoted then, their pause in reaching the minors had more to do with significant dates in the season than besides readiness.  Like a 7th year of control or past the point where Super Two becomes an issue?

Yes, I do. And no, not really in his case.

 

I truly believe that, if Meyer hadn't looked out of whack for much of the spring, if May had followed up with a better final showing, if Milone had faltered instead of shown something, if Pelfrey and even Nolasco had not inspired more confidence than they did....but that's not the way things went.

 

So, big deal, Meyer and May have a chance to dominate AAA for a couple of months, waiting for one of five guys to suffer an injury or otherwise falter, which is practically an inevitability. My hope (not expectation) is that all eight of these guys pitches lights out, and teams desperate for pitching at the deadline come calling. Not saying Super2 stuff doesn't periodically enter into decisions, just not in the case. If people want to talk about scholarships, then talk about how neither May or Meyer were granted one and tell me why they earned a rotation spot to start the year over Milone, Pelfrey, or Nolasco.

[bird]

 

You do  realize, right, that you are talking in different tenses (present vs. future) in your response to Winston?  It's practically a different language.

In the present tense, as in right now, the Twins wouldn't trade Meyer back for Span, and would refuse a straight-up trade between May and Revere in the opinion of many. In any language, it's all about how you look at the trades.

 

 

 

[Mike Sixel]

25 is not a young prospect. 25 is not young. Why do people keep calling these players young?

[Mike Sixel]

How many 90 loss seasons do the As have under Beane? All those who said last year the Cubs and Twins were in the Sam schedule, and we should stop saying otherwise, you want to bet on that today?

[jokin]

 

In the present tense, as in right now, the Twins wouldn't trade Meyer back for Span, and would refuse a straight-up trade between May and Revere in the opinion of many. In any language, it's all about how you look at the trades.

 

Uhh... a lot of WAteR flowed under the bridge... right out of town... and still hasn't yet been replaced.  It's going on 3 years now, the losing drought during this time is directly related to the hole created in CF and the holes still unfilled in the SP staff.

 

that's in the present tense-

 

that's why the deal looks sad, right now.

 

I don't know how else you can look at the trades, right now, than that.  Again, as I said, 5 months from now, hopefully things will look far more optimistic going forward.

 

[jimmer]

 

How many 90 loss seasons do the As have under Beane? All those who said last year the Cubs and Twins were in the Sam schedule, and we should stop saying otherwise, you want to bet on that today?

I have the Cubs going to the playoffs this year, so I guess that means I think the Cubs are farther along. In fairness, I never thought they were on the same schedule:-)

[bird]

 

Uhh... a lot of WAteR flowed under the bridge... right out of town... and still hasn't yet been replaced.  It's going on 3 years now, the losing drought during this time is directly related to the hole created in CF and the holes still unfilled in the SP staff.

 

that's in the present tense-

 

that's why the deal looks sad, right now.

 

I don't know how else you can look at the trades, right now, than that.  Again, as I said, 5 months from now, hopefully things will look far more optimistic going forward.

The way you're looking at the trade is fine. Based on results to-date, sure the trade hasn't benefitted the big club. And sure, it may never even up in terms of results. None of us are so obtuse as to not see that.

 

But isn't it a bit obtuse to say you fail to see a way to look at the trade differently? Meyer>Span, May>Revere in terms of current trade value?

 

A lot of us who have experienced life in the business world know that a board of directors judges a CEO on the quality of his/her decisions separately from the results, because the CEO controls 100% of the former but not the latter. Ultimately, the two are inextricably linked, and if the results aren't there, the CEO gets canned even if the majority of his calls are of high quality. And usually, there is a correlation of course, between the two things.

 

So, at the time of the trades, more of us than not here on TD IIRC lauded the quality of the decisions. Depending on how you look at it, it's entirely reasonable to still not only view the decisions as good ones, but to view the current status of the trade favorably despite there being minimal impact so far for the big club.

[bird]

 

I have the Cubs going to the playoffs this year, so I guess that means I think the Cubs are farther along. In fairness, I never thought they were on the same schedule:-)

 

Most everyone has thought the Cubs were progressing at a fast pace and were on a schedule advanced by better than a year or three.

[jokin]

 

 

. Depending on how you look at it, it's entirely reasonable to still not only view the decisions as good ones, but to view the current status of the trade favorably despite there being minimal impact so far for the big club.

 

"Minimal Impact?"....  so far for the blg club?

 

I sense that you, Paul Molitor and the "staff" are big fans of Terry Ryan's job the last 3 seasons at "minimizing" the "impact", to go along with Tommy Milone's great minimizing job that won him the #5 spot.

[jimmer]

 

Most everyone has thought the Cubs were progressing at a fast pace and were on a schedule advanced by better than a year or three.

Most everyone? That's not what I was reading well before I ever posted.  Seems many people who spend a lot of time singing Ryan's praises were saying they were no farther along than we were. Anyone else who has posted here for quite some times see the same thing? Obviously mike has.

 

And, you know, on other sites as well.

 

 

[Thegrin]

I am loosing my faith in Ryan,  I was not pleased with the trades for May and Meyer.  Never trade an everyday player for a pitcher, not to mention for a pitching prospect.   But tall pitchers develope slowley, so maybe there is hope for the future.

I was not pleased that they keep giving Hicks chances. I am definately a Hicks hater.  His attitude stinks and he gives us nothing but excuses.    

[biggentleben]

Something funny to consider.  The Braves reportedly came to the Twins with J.R. Graham for Denard Span.  Terry Ryan countered with Julio Teheran for Denard Span.  The Braves (depending on which account you believe) never returned another call from the Twins.  The other version of the trade talk has the Braves countering with Teheran and a low level guy for both Span and Hicks, which the Twins walked away irritated from.

 

Either way, the Twins could have Teheran right now and the Braves would not have signed Melvin Upton.  Plus, the Twins ended up with Graham anyway, so you could say they got Graham and Meyer for Span rather than just one...

[jimmer]

Julio Teheran?  Is that the Braves pitcher who just turned 24 and has two full years of starting under his belt already?  I thought he was a myth. :-)

[jorgenswest]

Something funny to consider.  The Braves reportedly came to the Twins with J.R. Graham for Denard Span.  Terry Ryan countered with Julio Teheran for Denard Span.  The Braves (depending on which account you believe) never returned another call from the Twins.  The other version of the trade talk has the Braves countering with Teheran and a low level guy for both Span and Hicks, which the Twins walked away irritated from.

 

Either way, the Twins could have Teheran right now and the Braves would not have signed Melvin Upton.  Plus, the Twins ended up with Graham anyway, so you could say they got Graham and Meyer for Span rather than just one...

I would love to see the source about the Hicks part of the story (with Twins irritation). Looked for the 2012 original sources and could not find anything. Thanks for the help.

[jimmer]

 

I would love to see the source about the Hicks part of the story (with Twins irritation). Looked for the 2012 original sources and could not find anything. Thanks for the help.

I've not heard any of this, to be honest, in regards to being serious offers.  Speculation maybe on the first part, and like you I haven't heard the part about Hicks at all.

 

And I'm not sure what any of it has to do with Upton.

[Linus]

 

I am loosing my faith in Ryan,  I was not pleased with the trades for May and Meyer.  Never trade an everyday player for a pitcher, not to mention for a pitching prospect.   But tall pitchers develope slowley, so maybe there is hope for the future.

I was not pleased that they keep giving Hicks chances. I am definately a Hicks hater.  His attitude stinks and he gives us nothing but excuses.    

You are aware that they sent Hicks to AAA?

[Hrbowski]

I think that Hicks' best chance at success is if we trade him within the next year.

[biggentleben]

 

I've not heard any of this, to be honest, in regards to being serious offers.  Speculation maybe on the first part, and like you I haven't heard the part about Hicks at all.

 

And I'm not sure what any of it has to do with Upton.

 

The Braves' #1 target for CF that offseason was Denard Span.  When they moved away from him, they attempted to strike fast, believing there would be a big market for CFers in free agency.

[biggentleben]

 

I would love to see the source about the Hicks part of the story (with Twins irritation). Looked for the 2012 original sources and could not find anything. Thanks for the help.

 

I don't think anyone directly sourced it at the time.  It's something that's come out in bits and pieces after Frank Wren's firing last fall.  Like I said in my post, it depends on which story you believe.  The Twins were quite interested in trying to "buy low" on Teheran after his rough season in AAA, but the Braves didn't want to give him away by any means.  The Graham for Span offer was "confirmed" as something heard in that time by David O'Brien, the Braves beat writer.  It's been held up as a "what if" as Upton has gone bad.

[Dr. Evil]

Ii would be a lot more excited to watch games if it was a true youth movement. Not looking forward to watching retreads. I think Ryan does a poor job of projecting young guys and falls back unduely on his security blanket of vets. It's getting really old.

[DJSim22]

 

well that is certainly debatable.  I'd take Beane myself.  They hardly have the financial constraints.

 

Funny, the Twins couldn't get out of the first round and the media and fans were clammoring to fire him.  The A''s don't get out of the first round and Beane is a genious.  I get a manager vs GM but I find it interesting. 

[bird]

 

"Minimal Impact?"....  so far for the blg club?

 

I sense that you, Paul Molitor and the "staff" are big fans of Terry Ryan's job the last 3 seasons at "minimizing" the "impact", to go along with Tommy Milone's great minimizing job that won him the #5 spot.

What about minimal impact is escaping you? May began his MLB career last year, and actually began to show some promise. He was minimally impactful.

 

Not sure what your second paragraph here is about, sorry.

[bird]

 

Most everyone? That's not what I was reading well before I ever posted.  Seems many people who spend a lot of time singing Ryan's praises were saying they were no farther along than we were. Anyone else who has posted here for quite some times see the same thing? Obviously mike has.

 

And, you know, on other sites as well.

You're probably right. Not sure what benefit any of us gain by pointing that out though.

[jimmer]

 

Funny, the Twins couldn't get out of the first round and the media and fans were clammoring to fire him.  The A''s don't get out of the first round and Beane is a genious.  I get a manager vs GM but I find it interesting. 

People were clamoring for the Twins to fire Ryan because of the playoffs? That's news to me. I remember people clamoring for Gardy to be fired for his team's postseason record.  What happens in a postseason tournament is fun and I like W Series championships as much as the next person, but I'm not sure I've ever clamored for Ryan's removal, certainly not for postseason tournament results.

 

Beane was an innovator, he's aggressive.  He's not afraid to take chances.  I'll take him over Sabean which is what the discussion was about.

[Linus]

 

Ii would be a lot more excited to watch games if it was a true youth movement. Not looking forward to watching retreads. I think Ryan does a poor job of projecting young guys and falls back unduely on his security blanket of vets. It's getting really old.

How many re-treads in the starting 9?  I count 2.

[Dr. Evil]

How many re-treads in the starting 9?  I count 2.

Point well taken :0) But, I'm speaking in terms of Bartlett, Kubel, and crew last year and Pelf, Milone types this year. my point being, I prefer to call a rebuild a rebuild by going young.

[Twodogs]

 

Ii would be a lot more excited to watch games if it was a true youth movement. Not looking forward to watching retreads. I think Ryan does a poor job of projecting young guys and falls back unduely on his security blanket of vets. It's getting really old.

What young guys has he failed to project???  The ones the Twins have now?  Or the ones they've had over the last 4-5 years or so??  I mean if he sends them down to AAA are they going to forget how to play baseball??  Do they get worse for some reason?  See I think if they get sent down and they force you to bring them up (a la Justin Morneau), which not too many have done over the 4 - 5 years then you bring them up.  But for some reason most of these guys haven't forced anyones hand.  Which is disappointing and it really only means that so far they are just Hype and no substance.  God I hope some of these guys bring some substance over the next couple of years.  Just bringing them up because they are hyped and have a bunch of potential means nothing.  If they get sent down then they need to do a Justin Morneau and force them to bring you up.

[Dr. Evil]

What young guys has he failed to project???  The ones the Twins have now?  Or the ones they've had over the last 4-5 years or so??  I mean if he sends them down to AAA are they going to forget how to play baseball??  Do they get worse for some reason?  See I think if they get sent down and they force you to bring them up (a la Justin Morneau), which not too many have done over the 4 - 5 years then you bring them up.  But for some reason most of these guys haven't forced anyones hand.  Which is disappointing and it really only means that so far they are just Hype and no substance.  God I hope some of these guys bring some substance over the next couple of years.  Just bringing them up because they are hyped and have a bunch of potential means nothing.  If they get sent down then they need to do a Justin Morneau and force them to bring you up.

I project May, Meyer, for example, to have more upside and short term impact than Milone and Pelf. I see little advantage to not clicking ahead now.

[glunn]

Moderator note -- please focus more on the Twins and less on characterizing the positions of other posters.