Neil Allen reported a finalist for PC job

[Steven Buhr]

Neil Allen, Rays AAA pitching coach, is the 2nd finalist for Twins' PC job, per LEN3's Strib story. What do we know about his philosophies?

 

http://www.startribune.com/sports/twins/283299761.html

[Thrylos]

Neil Allen is a sinker guru, pretty much the same way as Cuellar is a change up guru.  He taught Chien-Ming Wang the sinker and that propelled him.  Here is the problem:  if that is your major pitch, and you throw it 80% of the time, it is the same philosophy as the previous coach (and the rest of the organization.)  Pitch to contact and kill worms.  But if you use it as a change of pace pitch and your goal is to miss bats, if is a different story.   I hope it is door number two, but based on the internal selections so far, I don't see that the front office is ready for a change of philosophy at this point.

 

I hope I am wrong.

[beckmt]

I think it depends on how good either candidate is on helping a pitcher, fixing mechanical problems, and pitching to strengths of the pitcher.  If either is a one size fits all am not interested.

[Parker Hageman]

Here is a good read on Allen's mentality as a pitching coach from MiLB.com:

 

"You've got to talk to them," he says. "That's one of the most important things I do. THE most important thing. I talk to every pitcher, every day, even if it's just, "Hey, how you doing? How's it feeling?"

 

The starting pitchers get the bulk of Allen's attention during an average week. They pitch once every five days, providing plenty of down time for coaching, including pregame throwing sessions a couple days before their next start. Allen watches every pitch and lets the starter know what he sees.

Relievers have a less predictable schedule, both for their appearances in games and their time with Allen.

 

"You spend more time teaching starters than you do with a reliever. With a reliever, you probably spend five, 10 minutes here and there--maybe 15 minutes a week, doing mechanical talk," Allen says. "Starters you spend a good 30 minutes a week, because you're with them on their side days."

 

 

Give it a read.

[ashbury]

I think it depends on how good either candidate is on helping a pitcher, fixing mechanical problems, and pitching to strengths of the pitcher.  If either is a one size fits all am not interested.

I've sometimes wondered why teams don't officially split the pitching coach duties.  The bullpen coach does his thing of course, but I'm thinking more like having a pitching coach that specializes in the hard throwers and a second coach who coaxes the most out of guys with lesser stuff.  As an example. 

 

It could be split some other way - anything to get away from one size fits all.  Of course any coach will tell you he's adaptable, but in reality it seems like everyone has their strength.

 

Seems like something an analytically oriented team like the A's and Jays and Rays might already have tried.  I could see the same logic with batting coach, one guy for the mashers and another for the punch-and-judies.  Maybe it only leads to hard feelings and a lack of accountability - "hey, I'm not a soft-tosser, why'd you assign me to him???"

 

Or, lefties versus righties.  A platoon on the staff, as opposed to in left field. 

[ashbury]

"You spend more time teaching starters than you do with a reliever. With a reliever, you probably spend five, 10 minutes here and there--maybe 15 minutes a week, doing mechanical talk," Allen says. "Starters you spend a good 30 minutes a week, because you're with them on their side days."

 

Five starters, 7 relievers... maybe 5 hours in a week including filling out the time card?  Nice work if you can get it.

[SweetOne69]

I've sometimes wondered why teams don't officially split the pitching coach duties.  The bullpen coach does his thing of course, but I'm thinking more like having a pitching coach that specializes in the hard throwers and a second coach who coaxes the most out of guys with lesser stuff.  As an example. 

 

It could be split some other way - anything to get away from one size fits all.  Of course any coach will tell you he's adaptable, but in reality it seems like everyone has their strength.

 

Seems like something an analytically oriented team like the A's and Jays and Rays might already have tried.  I could see the same logic with batting coach, one guy for the mashers and another for the punch-and-judies.  Maybe it only leads to hard feelings and a lack of accountability - "hey, I'm not a soft-tosser, why'd you assign me to him???"

 

Or, lefties versus righties.  A platoon on the staff, as opposed to in left field. 

 

Nice thought, but you can only have 7 coaches and you need coaches to cover the areas of baserunning, infielders and outfielders along with hitting and pitching.

[Kirby_waved_at_me]

Totally irrelevant stats:

 

Paul Molitor was 1-2 lifetime against Neil Allen, with the one hit being a double. He also drew 3 walks. The one out was a strikeout.

 

Against Carl Willis, Molitor went 0-12 with one strikeout.

[Seth Stohs]

People worry too much about what a pitching coach's style has been. Every pitcher is different, and a good pitching coach will help each pitcher develop to the best of their abilities. 

 

Guys that can strikeout guys should be coached differently than guys that top out at 90. 

 

All pitching coaches should (and probably do) say get ahead and throw strikes and hit the corners and move it around. That's the basic information.

 

I want a pitching coach who doesn't have a style, but he's able to adapt with every pitcher. 

 

Guys get reputations as this type of pitching coach or that type of pitching coach based on their success stories. Cuellar with Johan and Pedro, but he also worked with a lot of other pitchers and had his successes and "failures" as well. But I guarantee that Cuellar isn't solely a changeup pitcher.

[ashbury]

you can only have 7 coaches

That's a major league rule?  I Did Not Know That. 

 

Just another reason why when my phone doesn't ring, it's teams looking to hire a GM.

[SweetOne69]

That's a major league rule?  I Did Not Know That. 

 

Just another reason why when my phone doesn't ring, it's teams looking to hire a GM.

Yes it is a ML Rule.  Actually the recently raised from 6, that is why they were able to add Molitor to the staff last year.

[jokin]

Neil Allen is a sinker guru, pretty much the same way as Cuellar is a change up guru.  He taught Chien-Ming Wang the sinker and that propelled him.  Here is the problem:  if that is your major pitch, and you throw it 80% of the time, it is the same philosophy as the previous coach (and the rest of the organization.)  Pitch to contact and kill worms.  But if you use it as a change of pace pitch and your goal is to miss bats, if is a different story.   I hope it is door number two, but based on the internal selections so far, I don't see that the front office is ready for a change of philosophy at this point.

 

I hope I am wrong.

 

Reposted from the other PC thread:

 

I've been begging for the club to follow up with the Glynn hire and get some more successful Rays personnel, this one has a strong record of success as the AAA Durham Bulls pitching coach.  Look especially at the K%'ges, 3 straight years at #1, even as his best players graduate... Holy Cow!

 

Not bad for a guy that emphasizes mastering: the FB inside and outside, don't be afraid to throw strikes, and pitching to contact:  Never been in the Twins organization, but can "talk the talk"  -AND- "walk the walk."  I see a great fit here if Terry has the courage to pull the trigger.

 

 

 

 

 

 

International League team pitching results:

2011  Team ERA  3.59 (3rd in IL)  K%  (3rd)

2012  Team ERA  4.59 (13th)        K%  (1st)

2013  Team ERA  3.33 (1st)          K%  (1st)

2014  Team ERA  3.59  (3rd)         K%  (1st)

[h2oface]

"You've got to talk to them," he says. "That's one of the most important things I do. THE most important thing. I talk to every pitcher, every day, even if it's just, "Hey, how you doing? How's it feeling?"

 

The starting pitchers get the bulk of Allen's attention during an average week. They pitch once every five days, providing plenty of down time for coaching, including pregame throwing sessions a couple days before their next start. Allen watches every pitch and lets the starter know what he sees.

Relievers have a less predictable schedule, both for their appearances in games and their time with Allen.

 

"You spend more time teaching starters than you do with a reliever. With a reliever, you probably spend five, 10 minutes here and there--maybe 15 minutes a week, doing mechanical talk," Allen says. "Starters you spend a good 30 minutes a week, because you're with them on their side days.""You spend more time teaching starters than you do with a reliever. With a reliever, you probably spend five, 10 minutes here and there--maybe 15 minutes a week, doing mechanical talk," Allen says. "Starters you spend a good 30 minutes a week, because you're with them on their side days."

 

Parker didn't say it, he just quoted Neil Allen, but system didn't post what i changed in the quote heading.  Doing the math:

 

30 min. x 5 starters = 2.5 hours

15 min. x 8 relievers = 2 hours

Even using 13 pitchers, and the long talks for relievers........ Neil talks about an average of 4.5 hours a week to the pitching staff?  I want that job 

[Kirby_waved_at_me]

I think the time he mentions is referring to specifically talking about mechanical adjustments as opposed to total time working

[Wyorev]

Coaches matter.

A good bit.

But what really matters, is the talent. 

Much more important than the pitching coaches "philosophy" is his pitchers.

Also - isn't the seven coaches thing really about how many can suit up and be on the field / in the dugout and bullpen? (I don't know that, but I kinda sorta thought that 7 is the number of coaches who can suit up for a game)...

And I think bullpen management is dang important. Meaning, how often does a coach have guys warm up and then not use them? Or warm them up too often in a game. . . and etc. Stuff that is hard to know if you aren't paying way close attention...

[jokin]

Coaches matter.

A good bit.

But what really matters, is the talent. 

Much more important than the pitching coaches "philosophy" is his pitchers.

 

 

Reposted from the other PC thread,  Allen has a demonstrated history of making good pitchers much better, as in the cases of Chien-Ming Wang and Odorizzi (see below), but also with dramatically improving the results of more pedestrian arms (see below):

 

 

 

There's no doubt that he's been working with some good prospects over the last 4 years, such as-

Chris Archer, Alex Cobb,  Alex Torres, Jake McGee , among others.

                                                                                                                                                            Jake Odorizzi really stands out with major improvements in repeating AAA, between the Royals farm club and the Rays:

2012 (Royals AAA)  K/9  7.38  BB/9 3.35  K%  19.1  BA .251 WHIP 1.35

2013 (Rays AAA)    K/9   8.98  BB/9 2.90  K%  25.2 BA .224 WHIP 1.13

                                                                                                                                                               But it isn't just the ace-level talent that has improved under his tutelage.  AAA journeyman/fringe-major-leaguer, JD Martin, moved over to the Rays in 2013 and posted a stellar 16-4 record with career highs in ERA and K/9. Merrill Kelly bounced around the Rays system for 4 years with uninspiring results.  Getting promoted to AAA in 2013, and repeating the level in 2014, he's put up high-end results in ERA and K/9, far above anything he'd shown previously.

[Otto von Ballpark]

Yes it is a ML Rule.  Actually the recently raised from 6, that is why they were able to add Molitor to the staff last year.

When I've read it, the rule was just about uniformed coaches in the dugout.  Does that mean you can have any number of coaches you want otherwise?  And if you wanted them at games they'd have to sit elsewhere and/or not be uniformed?  Seems like you could work around it if you wanted -- particularly for coaches that don't really have to be present during the game.

 

The way shifts are being done, will we see a coach's booth soon, like football?

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Five starters, 7 relievers... maybe 5 hours in a week including filling out the time card?  Nice work if you can get it.

The job also comes with a 162-game season ticket package, dugout seats, from what I hear.

[James]

The job also comes with a 162-game season ticket package, dugout seats, from what I hear.

Not to mention exclusive access to spring training games and practices.

 

Where do I sign up?

[Otto von Ballpark]

The job also comes with a 162-game season ticket package, dugout seats, from what I hear.

Plus a lot of gum.  All-you-can-chew.

[ashbury]

The job also comes with a 162-game season ticket package, dugout seats, from what I hear.

And you get to tell the manager, "aw, pull the starter.  He's done."  And he even listens.

[Steven Buhr]

Seems to me the Bullpen Coach is (or at the very least he SHOULD be) more or less an "assistant pitching coach." 

 

The days when you would simply reward a long-time organization man or personal friend of the manager with a MLB bullpen coach job with few responsibilities other than simply answering the bullpen phone, supervising the RP's warm up tosses and waving your cap to the dugout to signal he's ready certainly are a thing of the past, aren't they?

 

With video work and trying to get the best out of a dozen pitchers, every coaching position is simply too valuable to waste one. 

 

I don't know much about Guardado as a coach, but I found it odd that they would hire the bullpen coach before the pitching coach. I would have thought you would hire your pitching coach and then let him have some input on his "assistant" in the bullpen position, but I guess that's not the approach the Twins take.

[Brandon]

And the free travel and per diem to eat for free during the season.  All the sunflower seeds you can stand.

[big dog]

 

 

I don't know much about Guardado as a coach, but I found it odd that they would hire the bullpen coach before the pitching coach. I would have thought you would hire your pitching coach and then let him have some input on his "assistant" in the bullpen position, but I guess that's not the approach the Twins take.

 

That's an interesting point.  Rick Stelmazek certainly outlasted a few pitching coaches.  I wonder how often a pitching coach has a say in the hiring process in other organizations?  I can see how that would make sense, as long as you trusted your pitching coach.  If you weren't sure, you might hedge your bets by picking your own guy.

[jokin]

Parker didn't say it, he just quoted Neil Allen, but system didn't post what i changed in the quote heading.  Doing the math:

 

30 min. x 5 starters = 2.5 hours

15 min. x 8 relievers = 2 hours

Even using 13 pitchers, and the long talks for relievers........ Neil talks about an average of 4.5 hours a week to the pitching staff?  I want that job 

 

 

Yeah, maybe a bit of an efficiency freak.  But this guy is rapidly becoming my runaway favorite  (which also means he probably won't get the gig), for many supportable reasons, but these three revelations from Berardino's piece put it over the top, especially his personal crusade to speed the game up!!!:

 

 

1)  "We’ve all had pitching coaches and managers who had all the answers without ever seeing us. I’m not that guy. I’m not that smart. I need to sit down and talk. I do a lot of watching first and get to know the individual."                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     2)  Allen played coy when I asked him about the innovative drills he’s become known for in a two-decade coaching career that began in the independent Texas-Louisiana League and most recently included four years with the Bulls. Some of those drills have spread throughout the whole Rays system, Allen allowed, making sure to credit minor league pitching coordinator Dick Bosman and all other Rays pitching coaches for being so receptive.                                                                                                                                                                                                                  3)   He does, however, jog out (to the mound) with a purpose. No Sunday afternoon strolling for him.   “I think the way you approach the mound is very important,” Allen said. “When you get there you’d better have something important to say. That guy is in a pickle. You’re there for a reason. Don’t beat around the bush. It’s like, ‘Let’s go. Let’s get the game moving.’                                                                                                                                     Baseball experimented with a 20-second pitch clock at the Arizona Fall League this year, but pace of game doesn’t sound like much of a problem with Allen in charge.          “They’re not going to blame me for the game being delayed,” he said. “Sometimes I’ll walk. I really don’t pay attention to it, but I’m usually one of those guys who will jog out there and jog back: Let’s get this done.”

 

Just the chance to return to most typical 9-inning games being completed in a brisk 2.5-3 hours instead of the usual Twins-snoozefest, 3.5-4 hours, would improve the quality of the product immensely.