Article: Nolasco and Injury Culture

[curt1965]

I have to wonder if this culture and atmosphere hasn't been present in the Twins organization for years. I have felt that most uneducated fans and even some followers of TD have expressed their feelings that certain players are not tough enough. Two examples come to mind, but they are not related. The "bilateral leg weakness" issue with Mauer seemed to cause the media, fans, and yes, even Gardy, to question whether Joe was really hurt. None of us will ever know, but I often wondered why a great player, with possible HOF credentials, would not want to play to enhance his stats. How anyone could question his toughness, after years of catching when a player is continually hurt, is beyond my thinking.

The other situation-that has nothing to do with toughness-relates to the Neshek situation. I followed his early career: Minnesota connection, unexpected success for a relative unknown, his interesting blog about life as a big leaguer. Then came the elbow tear. I don't remember the exact timeline, but the Twins wanted him to rest it, to see if he could forego TJ surgery.(I'm sure there must be cases when this has worked-I just don't know of any.) It obviously did not work for him, and he missed large portions of TWO years dealing with this issue. I don't know if a player has a right to say "I want the TJ surgery now," but this reluctance on the Twins part to deal with this issue in terms of a player's shelf life, has always bothered me.

[Badsmerf]

I'm not bothered by this either. Why is it Gardy's job to babysit players and ask if they're hurt? Players have to have some kind of ability to know if they are battling something they can play through or they need to rest. There should be a standard of toughness. What we don't see is if there is ridicule when a player does ask for some rest. This isn't the first player to come out and say they didn't want to say anything, nor the first to play poorly because of it. These guys should be expected to be in the training room weekly to stay healthy and feeling right.

[toosweet64]

@Seth Stohs

 

"I don't get people being upset at Gardenhire. I think he's right. Unless he's told or aware that there is an injury, what can he do? He's seen so much bad pitching the last few years that he can't just ask guys if they're hurt all the time."

 

For some reason, players aren't reporting injuries or soreness. The fact of the matter is that Rick Anderson and Bobby Cuellar are responsible for the pitchers and their health. If Gardy isn't hearing about soreness or injuries, then Rick Anderson and Cuellar aren't doing their jobs well enough to find out why their guys are struggling. And that's on Gardenhire's watch and, in my opinion, a fire-able offense. Better managers, like Terry Francona, have been fired for less.

[Guest wabene]

I just want to chime in that many on the internet are calling for FO heads, but what about Ricky? If he is hurting it is his responsibility to report it. I don't get why he wouldn't with a long term deal already inked. Can't see how any blame can be laid at the staff except maybe a shorter leash before sitting him down and prying it out of him. Pelf too. I suspect he didn't want to lose his spot.

[JB_Iowa]

In all honesty, I was surprised when this all blew up a bit on Twitter last night.

 

For me, this says more about Nolasco than anything else. He had just signed the largest free agent contract that this club had issued (or one of the largest). He knew that he was expected to lead this staff -- certainly by eating innings consistently. And, although I don't feel like i've "gotten to know" Nolasco, from what I have seen on Twitter, he seems to have a bit of a "machismo" thing going (the fight stuff, etc.).

 

I'm not discounting the concerns about the culture but frankly, Gardenhire shouldn't want to know every times someone has a minor boo boo. By this point in the season, most guys are probably playing through something. The question is whether guys feel comfortable reporting to the trainers, etc. and working on preventative maintenance as well as early response to injuries.

 

I just don't think Nolasco is a very good test case. I'd want to go back and see if we are seeing this as a true pattern.

[Nick Nelson]

Nolasco is a highly paid professional. It is a part of a pro athlete's job to know his body and to make the right decisions for him and his team. If he was dealing with an injury or soreness that was impeding his performance, it's his job to make the coaches and training staff aware of it.

 

I've seen a lot of talk about "injury culture" here and elsewhere, and it mostly strikes me as reactionary frustration with a team that just has a lot of things going wrong. As drjim astutely pointed out, this is the same kind of stuff teams across the league face, because athletes are trained over their lifetimes to tough it out and play through pain when they can.

[old nurse]

I have a couple of thoughts:

 

1. Does anyone here have any sense of how other team's operate? There is a lot of raging against the Twins and that they have some unique culture that leads to these outcomes, but I suspect pretty much every team deals with the exact same situations. Players don't report dings and management doesn't go out of its way to find injuries.

 

2. Does anyone here have any insight at all into the mindset of an elite athlete? Or even a college athlete? Players hide injuries from management all the time. It is so gray preciously because it is such a fine line. He wasn't injured enough not to pitch, just injured enough not to pitch at peak performance. How does a team respond to that?

 

3. I thought Gardy's comments to Berardino were spot on (all the comments in addition to the one you shared). If I was an athlete, I don't want a coach questioning me about injuries unless it is clear that I can't play - it wasn't clear Nolasco couldn't pitch, in fact he could pitch. If I had a bad stretch and the coach asked if I was hurt I would probably punch him.

 

I thought the article was well written, but your conclusions were terrible. There is absolutely no context from other teams or what it might be like to be an athlete and how the interaction between athlete and coach happens in the real world.

 

The idea that this will have any impact on future free agents or that there is some especially terrible culture here regarding injuries is laughable. This sort of thing plays out all the time across the league. Roughly 50% of pitchers and a got percentage of hitters spend time on the DL every year.

 

I have taken care of enough guys who thought a problem would go away if you ignore it long enough. How many people go to work sick. How many people stay home with a sniffle. There is a range there. Athletes and injuries are no different. There is a range of behaviors.

[MileHighTwinsFan]

At the risk of making a very poor analogy - I wonder why a team with such a huge investment in a player would not be acutely attuned to his physical conditioning. Like a NASCAR team that wants a car to be operating at peak efficiency, shouldn't the team be constantly checking on their investment in Nolasco? Beyond basic mechanics - shouldn't the team be regularly checking elbows, shoulders and forearms to make sure they are able to perform?

 

I know the analogy breaks down when you consider that for a car all that might be needed is a turn of a wrench or the replacement of a part, but it seems like monitoring and treatment is warranted on all players.

 

This should be particularly the case for a player who will be counted on for 4 years. The last thing we want is an injury that costs the team a full season or more.

[ashbury]

The last thing we want is an injury that costs the team a full season or more.

 

But that's where the dilemma comes in. To use your race car analogy, the team owner doesn't want the car constantly in the shop on race day, only to find out the mechanics were working on the cup holders or cigarette lighter. Needlessly not being available for competition is at least the second to last thing they want. And so you have these two competing aims, of maintaining the perspective to know whether it's a cup holder or an oil pressure problem - and unlike with cars, it's not quite as easy to plug in the computer and find out what code the Check Engine light is trying to tell you.

 

/ wait, you've never pulled over due to a Check Engine light only to discover it was for "CHA - Cup Holder Ajar"?

[Kwak]

Scenario I:

 

 

I wish I knew more about Nolasco's contract. If he had proclaimed that he's "injury free" and completely "ready to pitch"--and if he wasn't--could his contract be voided? IDK major league contracts (or others for that matter), but if there was a possibility that it could be voided for fraud, I definately would understand why Nolasco would try to "pitch through it". If things got worse, well it is reasonable to conclude that the injury occurred after he started pitching for the Twins.

 

Scenario II

 

As posted earlier in this thread--this "injury" wasn't disclosed by Nolasco until after Gardenhire trashed him. How convienent.

 

Scenario III

 

Maybe nobody really has enough facts about Nolasco's elbow (yet) but it's clear something has to be done now. Placing Nolasco in the IR List buys time to fully ascertain "what's up"--and fix it--as well as permitting someone else to replace Nolasco in the rotation until "it's fixed". Given the article about Worley I can definately believe the Twins want to solve the "Nolasco problem" themselves. It would be a PR nightmare if this issue continued to plauge the Twins, Nolasco was traded to another team (for a bus transfer), and this other team "fixed Nolasco" and returned him to a functional major league pitcher.

[naobermiller]

For those who are concerned about managment not making another move until Nolasco's contract is off the books, know that Ryan pursued Matt Garza to the last second, and offered him more annual money than Milwaukee did, after they had signed Nolasco and Hughes. They were ready to add more payroll, and don't see Ricky's injury deterring them from adding payroll

[ashbury]

For those who are concerned about managment not making another move until Nolasco's contract is off the books, know that Ryan pursued Matt Garza to the last second, and offered him more annual money than Milwaukee did, after they had signed Nolasco and Hughes. They were ready to add more payroll, and don't see Ricky's injury deterring them from adding payroll

 

Concur. I also note that, much like financial advisors tell you to "ladder" timed financial investments such as CDs, currently the pitching staff happens to be set up now so that one contract each year will expire. It's not implausible that when Correia moves on, another 4-year contract will be offered to someone else - especially when you note that to get good pitchers you have to offer the multi-year deals. Nothing's been said, and this flexibility may end up being used to lock up young talent like Meyer when the time comes rather than a free agent, but I still find it an interesting combination at the moment, Correia-> Pelfrey -> Hughes -> Nolasco.

[naobermiller]

Scenario I:

 

 

I wish I knew more about Nolasco's contract. If he had proclaimed that he's "injury free" and completely "ready to pitch"--and if he wasn't--could his contract be voided? IDK major league contracts (or others for that matter), but if there was a possibility that it could be voided for fraud, I definately would understand why Nolasco would try to "pitch through it". If things got worse, well it is reasonable to conclude that the injury occurred after he started pitching for the Twins.

 

The Twins did take out an insurance policy on his arm that covers any elbow injuries. If he misses extended time, the organization will be recouped for loss (once deductibles are met) and Nolasco's contract won't be a drag on payroll.

 

To be clear, this isn't something that will void Nolasco's contract. Just something that will recoup losses for extended time on the DL

[drjim]

Great take! I can't be quite as forgiving of the Twins, though. There is a thin line and I think the Twins have missed the mark, for whatever reason, too often. I think losing changes things, too.

 

I'm not forgiving the Twins per se, I just think this is the way elite athletics work.

 

I definitely concur with your last line. This type of stuff is blown out of proportion when the team sucks.

[drjim]

1) Very well written, well articulated, article. Thank you

2) I don't think this issue is a Gardy issue as much as it is MLB/MiLB and professional sports in general. Players of all sports are under immense pressure to perform.

3) That doesn't excuse the Twins FO and Manager. The "whistleblower" for those of us in the corporate world is the comparable. Progressive and successful organizations welcome and promote the open communication culture. Conversely the majority of organizations do not and end up being forced to get with the times.

 

I would suspect your #3 point applies to 0 professional teams in regards to this specific scenario. The Twins actually strike me as conservative/cautious in regards to playing with injuries relative to other teams. Part of the reason athletes make it to the majors is the mentality that if they don't play someone will take their place, or they will go to the minors, or something else will happen. That is probably how they get to where they are.

 

I think the idea of open communication is critical on certain issues, but the gray area of pitching with a sore elbow vs. injured elbow is lower on the list.

[Wookiee of the Year]

I agree with the general sentiment of the article--that managers and especially trainers need to be receptive to their players telling them about soreness or early signs of an injury, and teams should work to create a culture where players volunteer this information without fear of not looking macho.

 

However, I just don't think this test case applies. As the article states, it took some coaxing to get Nolasco to open up. I'm much more concerned it went down like this:

"C'mon, Ricky, look at the way you've been pitching lately. Something must be wrong."

"No, Coach, I feel fine."

"Ricky, think about it. These aren't the results we want from a major league starter. The results you're showing are more like a bullpen pitcher. But if that's because of injury, well, I don't see any need to move you to the bullpen--we can put you on the DL, let you recover from whatever the problem is, work on your mechanics in the minors, and then you can come back and start for us again when you can pitch like a major leaguer. What do you say?"

"Oh, I see. Well, Coach, now that you mention it, my arm is a little sore..."

 

Than like this:

"Ricky, I know I've told you I expect you to go out there every five days, no matter how you feel, but now I'm curious how you feel."

"Uh... N-no problems, Coach. I, uh, I feel fine."

"You sure about that? I don't normally want to hear it if you think you're hurt, but right now, I want you to open up with me."

"But Coach, when I tried to talk to you earlier this year, you told me to grind it out."

"Well, I guess I've had a change of heart. I don't want to hear it if it's minor, but now I'm curious if it's bigger than that."

"That's a relief, Coach. Because my arm's been sore since Spring Training and I think it might be serious, but I've been keeping it to myself because you told us not to talk about injuries."

 

I admit it could've gone down on either end of the spectrum or any which way in between. But from the facts as we know them, the former seems more likely than the latter, and is also the scenario I'm much more worried about.

[sabrtoothtiger]

Such a #hotsportstake that the editor had to make sure to get the first comment to raise his finger and say "before you say anything, let me just say..."

 

But at the same time, I'm not even sure what the post is trying to say. Are the players too soft or is Gardy too hard?

[LaBombo]

Nolasco is a highly paid professional. It is a part of a pro athlete's job to know his body and to make the right decisions for him and his team. If he was dealing with an injury or soreness that was impeding his performance, it's his job to make the coaches and training staff aware of it.

 

I've seen a lot of talk about "injury culture" here and elsewhere, and it mostly strikes me as reactionary frustration with a team that just has a lot of things going wrong. As drjim astutely pointed out, this is the same kind of stuff teams across the league face, because athletes are trained over their lifetimes to tough it out and play through pain when they can.

 

It would be equally exasperating to have your siding with management painted as knee-jerk defense of the organization, would it not?

 

The argument that responsibility for whether injuries are reported or not has little or nothing to do with team policy, corporate culture, and/or management/staff handling of player relations strikes me as extraordinarily improbable.

 

Eventually, this issue will sort itself out, without regard for many of the variables that are part of the equation:

 

Michael Corleohlad: Our baseball team loses. A lot. Maybe we can do better.

 

Moe St. Greeter: You think I'm skimming off the top of player health?

 

Corleohlad: You're unlucky...

[Craig Arko]

Neither the injury culture nor the blame-placing culture seems very appealing.

 

Good thing there are other options. Like Cargo Cults.

[LaBombo]

 

Good thing there are other options. Like Cargo Cults.

 

Can't buy into that. Maybe it's where I'm Frum.

 

But cargo pants, well, that's still debatable. Barely.

[DocBauer]

I completely appreciate every thought and sentiment from the original article. I do feel some of the commentary and speculation arises from simple frustration. I also greatly appreciate the even-handed ness in these follow up opinions.

 

Thank you John for setting the tone.

 

Echoing what's already been said, in any sport, whether the rough and tumble world of weekly football, or the longer, less physical, but very grueling sports such as basketball and baseball, nobody is ever 100% healthy after a point. And I concur with Gardy's initial comments. Of course, if one wishes, they can be taken out of context and blow up. But every bump and soreness is indeed not an injury, and shouldn't preclude mass concern from a coach/manager.

 

And Gardy, like Kelly before him, likes to give days off to guys, likes to use his whole roster, in order to keep everyone sharp, involved, and as healthy as possible over the course of a season. In fact, I have often heard him in pre-games even comment about giving guys days off due to soreness and the such to keep them fresh.

 

I certainly hope Nolasco's soreness is not a precursor to something more serious! But I am pleased in a bizarre way to hear of his injury. It helps explain his poor start this season vs spending big money on a FA SP who just loses his stuff, or command, or who just doesn't fit with a team or league.

 

That being said, Nolasco did have a responsibility for saying something sooner. There is a difference from playing not 100%, and playing injured. We often attack athletes, at different times and for different reasons, for the tremendous money they make, and making excuses for poor play, or poor decisions. But despite the money involved, at the end of the day, almost every high level athlete, pro or college, is a competitor. And not being out there kills, and they will do most anything to avoid sitting. Twins, Vikings, Cornhuskers, even teams I am not a fan of, I have heard countless reports of players who tried to play through injuries, tried to hide said injuries, and only came fully truthful when it finally became blatantly obvious. So this is no Twins issue, just part of the culture of sports and competitors.

 

I never played above a high school level, but have known college athletes who will echo this sentiment universally. Even waaaaaay back when in my HS days, I participated hurt, and was reluctant to tell a coach or trainer if hurting. I even had a teammate confide in me once not to tell the coaches he had been hit so hard that he suddenly forgot the score, the play book, and the first half. Now, despite his imploring not to tell anyone, I had to protect my teammate so I did inform someone. Now, there is a huge chasm from high school football to pro athletics, but I think the thought process of the competitive athlete permeates all levels.

 

Im not angry at Nolasco, wish him the best, hope he will be OK, and will kick butt for the next 3 1/2 years for the Twins. But really, he should have said something sooner.

[gil4]

Guys are sore everyday. Hell I woke up sore this morning from watching the Twins game at an odd angle last night.

 

So are you going to be on the 15-day day-to-day list or the 60 day day-to-day list?

[naobermiller]

Concur. I also note that, much like financial advisors tell you to "ladder" timed financial investments such as CDs, currently the pitching staff happens to be set up now so that one contract each year will expire. It's not implausible that when Correia moves on, another 4-year contract will be offered to someone else - especially when you note that to get good pitchers you have to offer the multi-year deals. Nothing's been said, and this flexibility may end up being used to lock up young talent like Meyer when the time comes rather than a free agent, but I still find it an interesting combination at the moment, Correia-> Pelfrey -> Hughes -> Nolasco.

 

This is a fantastic point. Hadn't noticed that.

[HansGruber]

Berardino’s article says explicitly that only after some coaxing could the Twins brass get Nolasco to admit his arm has been tight since spring training and that he hasn’t been right all year.

 

So the Twins had to drag it out of him that he is hurt yet they have a culture that encourages players to play hurt?

Doesn't add up. Seems more like Nolasco was ignoring the issue. Perhaps he didn't think it was serious and would go away or he wanted to tough it out, either way I find it difficult to come to the conclusion that this injury not being discovered sooner is related to how the Twins do business.

The funny thing is, most people want to blame the Twins for being too soft with players every time Mauer gets hurt. Guess it's a damned if you do, damned if you don't sort of thing with fans.

[snepp]

So are you going to be on the 15-day day-to-day list or the 60 day day-to-day list?

 

And when is TJ scheduled?

[Nick Nelson]

It would be equally exasperating to have your siding with management painted as knee-jerk defense of the organization, would it not?

I'm not siding with anyone. Facts are facts. A player had soreness that he chose not to reveal to anyone for several months. Is the argument that he did so because of the "culture" in an organization that he's been part of for eight months?

 

In order to convince me that this is anything out of the ordinary, you'd have to somehow show me that the same thing doesn't happen with most other teams throughout the league. I think it does.

 

I would probably agree that Gardenhire too often expects his guys to play through pain, tough it out, not complain. But that's a problem with baseball culture, and maybe just pro sports culture -- not Minnesota Twins culture. If you can give me some compelling evidence to the contrary, I'm all ears.

[Brock Beauchamp]

What a great article. I've long thought that this was a problem in sports, not just the Twins.

 

Should Michael Jordan have played through injury when he's 80% healthy? Maybe, because 80% of Michael Jordan is a whole lot better than whoever would replace him and the Bulls wouldn't win without Jordan on the court.

 

On the other hand, how long does playing through an injury extend that injury? Is it worth playing Michael Jordan at 80% for an entire season when you could sit him for ten days and get a 100% Michael Jordan for the remainder of the season?

 

Now apply that thinking to decent players like Ricky Nolasco. An 80% Ricky Nolasco is not a good pitcher because a 100% Ricky Nolasco is only a decent pitcher. The moment a guy like that has an issue, you sit him because not only is he going to be ineffective, he's probably going to be ineffective for a long time because he never properly heals from his injury. It's the responsibility of the player to voice these concerns and it's the responsibility of the organization to respond accordingly.

 

So, essentially, we've been dealing with an 80% Ricky Nolasco for half a season and he's been absolutely terrible.

 

I don't know if this is Gardy's fault or Nolasco's fault and it doesn't matter, really. Both athletes and organizations need to move on from this ridiculous "rub some dirt on it and walk it off" attitude and do what's best for the team and most of the time that involves benching a player who isn't at 100% because he's not only hurting you in the short-term, he's going to hurt you in the long-term as it's going to be harder for him to get healthy and play the rest of the season at 100%.

[dougkoebernick]

At the end of the day, the focus should be on getting Nolasco's elbow back to normal because it is really years 3 and 4 of the contract that are most important for the future of the Twins. Even though I'm a huge homer, love the Twins, and saw some positive strides earlier this year, they aren't ready to contend and they will need a healthy Nolasco in 2016 and 2017 when they once again contending (and hopefully 2015).

[Otto von Ballpark]

Now apply that thinking to decent players like Ricky Nolasco. An 80% Ricky Nolasco is not a good pitcher because a 100% Ricky Nolasco is only a decent pitcher. The moment a guy like that has an issue, you sit him because not only is he going to be ineffective, he's probably going to be ineffective for a long time because he never properly heals from his injury.

 

Agreed with your entire post, and I will add: a problem here is that Nolasco (and most pro athletes) rarely believe they are only "decent" performers when healthy. They generally have pretty big egos in this regard (and they arguably have to, to make it to this level and stick).

 

I guess that makes it more important for coaches and GMs to be extra vigilant when monitoring these players for signs of potential injury (or at least equally vigilant as the real superstars -- in the case of the superstars, they want to protect their investment and peformance, but in the case of the Nolasco's of the world, they mainly want to avoid extended subpar performance).

 

I wonder what that protocol is, for the Twins? Pelfrey's notable drop in velocity was discussed here at TD for at least several starts this season before the Twins did anything (actually, it was reported that Pelfrey took the initiative at that point and approached the team). Nolasco's velocity was down on Sunday but I don't think that had been the case in previous starts. I wonder if someone is looking for quantitative signs in this area, and pushing that info to players and coaches for more qualitative investigation?

[Brock Beauchamp]

Agreed with your entire post, and I will add: a problem here is that Nolasco (and most pro athletes) rarely believe they are only "decent" performers when healthy. They generally have pretty big egos in this regard (and they arguably have to, to make it to this level and stick).

 

I guess that makes it more important for coaches and GMs to be extra vigilant when monitoring these players for signs of potential injury (or at least equally vigilant as the real superstars -- in the case of the superstars, they want to protect their investment and peformance, but in the case of the Nolasco's of the world, they mainly want to avoid extended subpar performance).

 

I wonder what that protocol is, for the Twins? Pelfrey's notable drop in velocity was discussed here at TD for at least several starts this season before the Twins did anything (actually, it was reported that Pelfrey took the initiative at that point and approached the team). Nolasco's velocity was down on Sunday but I don't think that had been the case in previous starts. I wonder if someone is looking for quantitative signs in this area, and pushing that info to players and coaches for more qualitative investigation?

 

Yep. It's up to the player to say something. If a player is injured and doesn't say something about it, he should get his ass chewed by the manager. On the other hand, if a player is so block-headed that he refuses to say he's injured, it's the organization's role to start probing into why that established player is performing so poorly.

 

But overall, teams need to start treating injury reports positively and the hiding of injuries negatively. Do the Twins do that? I don't know - honestly, I doubt it - but in all fairness, I think that's true of the vast majority of sports organizations.