How Did the Buxton Process Go So Horribly Wrong?

Aerodeliria · August 24, 2023

I've said it before and I'll say it again, despite BB's love of the game, he is an injury waiting to happen ala Jacoby Ellsbury. I was concerned when we signed him to the big contract and nothing has unfolded to dissuade me from these feelings.

Fat Calvin · August 24, 2023

9 hours ago, SoDakTwinsFan said:

We are here because the Twins thought it was a good idea to sign a very injury prone player who only had one good season to a long term contract.

I couldn't agree more. The interesting question is why did the Twins hand the guy a 100 million dollar contract with his track record. I have one idea, but if I utter it, I'll most likely get cancelled and thrown off this website. So let me try to do a little dance around the censors. Let' me say that I think there could have been some political pressure applied to sign the man that had nothing to do with making a good baseball decision. This pressure probably came from within the Twins organization, but it could have an outside source as well.

Schmoeman5 · August 24, 2023

10 hours ago, chpettit19 said:

No, it doesn't seem odd to me. They're not trying to maximize him for 162 games now. They're trying to maximize him for 30.

Their stated plan coming into the season was to start him at DH and build him up into playing the field depending on how his body reacted in order to maximize his games played and ABs, correct? Body apparently didn't react how they were hoping with the fulltime DH thing so the team, drs, Buxton, everybody apparently didn't think putting him in CF in April or May made sense because it'd more than likely take him out of the lineup for a massive chunk of the season. There's not a massive chunk of the season left to worry about. There's a month + playoffs (hopefully). The math has changed.

I don't think we'll find many people who'd want to argue that the plan worked. Whether the plan was right or not is a different debate, and I'm sure we'd find many people on each side of that debate. But the plan didn't work out. But there's a very clear difference, to me at least, between trying to get him through 1-2 months and trying to get him through 6-7 months.

Really? If he hasn't played CF all season, and according to Rocco he wasn't physically able to. And now he goes on the IL and he is recuperating from whatever put him on the IL. And as he's doing that he's going to be able to come back and play the field too. That makes absolutely no sense. He had all of the off season to get ready for 2023 and he wasn't able to recover fully to start the season in the outfield. Now he's out for 2 months and he's good to go. I don't know but it sure sounds like a 12 pound walleye story.

Dave Borton · August 24, 2023

13 hours ago, nicksaviking said:

I wonder if his knee is acting up once again too.

Something is amiss. Arraez is hitting .235 for the month of August.

chpettit19 · August 24, 2023

2 hours ago, Schmoeman5 said:

Really? If he hasn't played CF all season, and according to Rocco he wasn't physically able to. And now he goes on the IL and he is recuperating from whatever put him on the IL. And as he's doing that he's going to be able to come back and play the field too. That makes absolutely no sense. He had all of the off season to get ready for 2023 and he wasn't able to recover fully to start the season in the outfield. Now he's out for 2 months and he's good to go. I don't know but it sure sounds like a 12 pound walleye story.

You don't see any difference in trying to get him through 162 games and trying to get him through 30? You wouldn't change your criteria for readiness based on 162 games vs 30 games? I would. But we don't all see things the same.

rv78 · August 24, 2023

Unfortunately #1) He has shown us, he can have trouble making it through 30 games much less 162. I wouldn't bank on that happening. Unfortunately #2) The FO did bank on him.

TwinsDr2021 · August 24, 2023

Bad plans generally go bad. Even if you think it was a good plan, when it started to go bad and wasn't changed it turned into a bad plan.

Brock Beauchamp · August 24, 2023

4 hours ago, Fat Calvin said:

I couldn't agree more. The interesting question is why did the Twins hand the guy a 100 million dollar contract with his track record. I have one idea, but if I utter it, I'll most likely get cancelled and thrown off this website. So let me try to do a little dance around the censors. Let' me say that I think there could have been some political pressure applied to sign the man that had nothing to do with making a good baseball decision. This pressure probably came from within the Twins organization, but it could have an outside source as well.

You got us! We can't possibly read through the lines of your post! AHHHHHH WE'VE BEEN THWARTED!

Karbo · August 24, 2023

16 hours ago, Woof Bronzer said:

Many TD posters questioned the Twins' handling of the Buxton situation earlier in the season -- for example, how someone could be healthy enough to sprint around the bases but not healthy enough to sprint around the outfield - and we were told it was stupid and borderline offensive to question the Twins because if he was healthy enough to play CF he would be playing CF, end of story. Now it appears it's ok to be questioning the Twins' approach. Interesting.

I'll ask another question: how in the world does it make any sense for Buxton to be ramping up to play the field....while he's on the IL?

At the beginning of the season I was under the impression he was only going to be full time DH for a while but that once we got into the summer and better weather he would go back to the OF. Obviously, that wasn't how the FO and Rocco felt. IMO he shouldn't come back this season unless he can play OF on a much more regular basis.

saviking · August 24, 2023

Good article .. I remember reading another article just before the season started that said Correa talked Buxton into not playing centerfield for the team. I wonder if Correa was a part of that suggestion.

Or when his knee hadn't healed enough to play centerfield at the beginning of this season. Should they have held him out of playing until the knee fully healed?

At this point, Buxton is of no value unless he can play in the field, so I'm all for giving it a go. But if Buxton is never able to return to the outfield one would hope he would retire.

My only other suggestion would be to make him a first baseman as Krilloff can play a decent outfield. But I'm not crazy about that either ..

Nine of twelve · August 24, 2023

I take issue with the title of this thread. I don’t think anything about “the process “ went “horribly wrong “. I think the plan for managing Buck’s situation was the best that could be done. No one had or has a crystal ball. Everyone hoped that his health would improve with a reduced role and felt that it was a perfectly reasonable route to follow. It’s certainly unfortunate that this didn’t happen but I do not think that any mismanagement took place. You just do what you can and hope for the best. And that’s exactly what the team is doing now: following a plan they think will enable them to get the most they can out of him for the rest of the season and (we are all hopeful) for the postseason.

tarheeltwinsfan · August 24, 2023

16 hours ago, chpettit19 said:

What are guys on the IL supposed to be doing if not ramping up to play?

Depends on the definition of "ramping up". Sometimes rest and heal is all a player can do on the IL.

LastOnePicked · August 24, 2023

15 hours ago, SoDakTwinsFan said:

We are here because the Twins thought it was a good idea to sign a very injury prone player who only had one good season to a long term contract.

This is factually correct, but kinda "spiritually" wrong, for lack of a better word.

Buxton carried the hopes of fans who suffered through the Twins rough stretch. He made us remember Puckett, made us dream about having our own Trout, made us think about the next window of contention. We watched him be resilient on the field and loyal to the club and the state. We hoped, wished, prayed it would all work out, despite all of the setbacks - that he'd get a chance to show that HOF potential, and that the Twins would ride on his shoulders to a title.

All that hope and good will went into that contract. It's a contract I wanted to see happen, too. Yup, it was probably foolish. I think you're objectively correct in your assessment. But unlike most mistakes this FO makes, this one I heartily and thoroughly understand.

chpettit19 · August 24, 2023

1 minute ago, tarheeltwinsfan said:

Depends on the definition of "ramping up". Sometimes rest and heal is all a player can do on the IL.

At the beginning, yes. But eventually they start doing more and more activity to get themselves ready to play. AKA "ramping up."

USAFChief · August 24, 2023

46 minutes ago, Nine of twelve said:

Everyone hoped that his health would improve with a reduced role and felt that it was a perfectly reasonable route to follow.

I don't think everyone agreed. At least not with the second part.

I've never understood how he could be healthy enough to run the bases but not healthy enough to run the outfield.

That just doesn't seem perfectly reasonable to me.

JD-TWINS · August 24, 2023

19 hours ago, Woof Bronzer said:

Many TD posters questioned the Twins' handling of the Buxton situation earlier in the season -- for example, how someone could be healthy enough to sprint around the bases but not healthy enough to sprint around the outfield - and we were told it was stupid and borderline offensive to question the Twins because if he was healthy enough to play CF he would be playing CF, end of story. Now it appears it's ok to be questioning the Twins' approach. Interesting.

I'll ask another question: how in the world does it make any sense for Buxton to be ramping up to play the field....while he's on the IL?

With 35 games left, and postseason a strong possibility, it seems buying roster space for healthy guys while putting him on IL to prepare for maybe 12-15 starts in CF makes perfect sense.

Sense of urgency changes as playoffs are more near & Twins need him in CF or possibly not at all. Time to find out what he can do over a short burst of games.

Squirrel · August 24, 2023

18 hours ago, tony&rodney said:

The optics are pretty unusual. Buxton can still run but apparently pays a high price every time he runs and was not considered at any point this season to be fit enough physically to play in the field despite the open acknowledgment that being a DH was very difficult for Byron and likely affected him. It is what it is.

I'm wondering if Buxton is at a point in his life where he is concerned with his ability to walk without pain and where he decides that the debilitating pain and the potential further damage to his mobility has reached the critical stage. I would not be at all surprised if he is facing retirement.

This is where I’m at with Buxton. Is just sad. So much talent, but a body that won’t withstand it.

Schmoeman5 · August 24, 2023

4 hours ago, chpettit19 said:

You don't see any difference in trying to get him through 162 games and trying to get him through 30? You wouldn't change your criteria for readiness based on 162 games vs 30 games? I would. But we don't all see things the same.

I do see what you're saying in regards to the last 30 games. I'm just reading the tea leaves like everyone else. If it happens the way you see it and he does get broken down again, they are just setting themselves up for a similar scenario for next season. With even less time for recovery. I guess we'll all see in the next week or so.

chpettit19 · August 24, 2023

2 minutes ago, Schmoeman5 said:

I do see what you're saying in regards to the last 30 games. I'm just reading the tea leaves like everyone else. If it happens the way you see it and he does get broken down again, they are just setting themselves up for a similar scenario for next season. With even less time for recovery. I guess we'll all see in the next week or so.

Without knowing what the physical problems really are with his knees/hip (also not being a dr doesn't help me) it's hard to have a great opinion on what they "should" do with him the rest this year. I was just responding to the idea that if he wasn't able to do it at the start of the year he can't be ready now. They're 2 different scenarios with different criteria, to me.

If treatment (surgery or whatever else they would do) and rest between now and next April means he'd have a real shot at being at least a 50% CFer next year I'd shut him down for the rest of this year. If he could play the rest of this year and then have that treatment and rest and the chances of him being at least a 50% CFer next year don't really change then I'd play him this year. If there's just no real hope that he's ever going to be at least a 50% CFer moving forward I'd play him this year.

I don't expect the team to give us real info on his knees/hip. I don't need any real info on that. But that's the stuff I'd expect them to be looking at in terms of making these decisions. And I'd think Buxton himself is going to be asking those questions. What are the percent chances he can ever be the player he wants to be, and how does what he does the rest of this season change those chances? Get those answers and I'd think the decision is relatively obvious.

chpettit19 · August 24, 2023

2 hours ago, USAFChief said:

I don't think everyone agreed. At least not with the second part.

I've never understood how he could be healthy enough to run the bases but not healthy enough to run the outfield.

That just doesn't seem perfectly reasonable to me.

I can run 1 mile, but I can't run 2. Should I just not run at all or run my 1 mile?

Craig Arko · August 24, 2023

3 hours ago, Nine of twelve said:

I take issue with the title of this thread. I don’t think anything about “the process “ went “horribly wrong “. I think the plan for managing Buck’s situation was the best that could be done. No one had or has a crystal ball. Everyone hoped that his health would improve with a reduced role and felt that it was a perfectly reasonable route to follow. It’s certainly unfortunate that this didn’t happen but I do not think that any mismanagement took place. You just do what you can and hope for the best. And that’s exactly what the team is doing now: following a plan they think will enable them to get the most they can out of him for the rest of the season and (we are all hopeful) for the postseason.

I actually own a (small) crystal ball. However, when trying to scry the answer to the problem of Byron Buxton, I saw “Reply hazy, try again later.”

RpR · August 24, 2023

Thinking of how many games Buxton can or ever will play at more than DH, I wondered who was the last Twin to play a full 162 games.

Did not spend an hour trying to dig that out but did find this on Major League 162 percentage.

https://sports.yahoo.com/no-load-management-here-meet-the-2-mlb-stars-committed-to-playing-all-162-games-150809939.html

SoDakTwinsFan · August 24, 2023

18 hours ago, Ted Schwerzler said:

Yeah, that's not at all the issue.

Kind of seems like it?

adorduan · August 24, 2023

4 hours ago, saviking said:

Good article .. I remember reading another article just before the season started that said Correa talked Buxton into not playing centerfield for the team. I wonder if Correa was a part of that suggestion.

Or when his knee hadn't healed enough to play centerfield at the beginning of this season. Should they have held him out of playing until the knee fully healed?

At this point, Buxton is of no value unless he can play in the field, so I'm all for giving it a go. But if Buxton is never able to return to the outfield one would hope he would retire.

My only other suggestion would be to make him a first baseman as Krilloff can play a decent outfield. But I'm not crazy about that either ..

He's not retiring and walking away from all that money. No chance.

MNBearCat · August 24, 2023

4 hours ago, Nine of twelve said:

I take issue with the title of this thread. I don’t think anything about “the process “ went “horribly wrong “. I think the plan for managing Buck’s situation was the best that could be done. No one had or has a crystal ball. Everyone hoped that his health would improve with a reduced role and felt that it was a perfectly reasonable route to follow. It’s certainly unfortunate that this didn’t happen but I do not think that any mismanagement took place. You just do what you can and hope for the best. And that’s exactly what the team is doing now: following a plan they think will enable them to get the most they can out of him for the rest of the season and (we are all hopeful) for the postseason.

Yeah, but how would you spin this eminently reasonable interpretation of the facts presented into an article that would generate two pages of comments? That's the real question.

Battle ur tail off · August 24, 2023

5 hours ago, saviking said:

Or when his knee hadn't healed enough to play centerfield at the beginning of this season. Should they have held him out of playing until the knee fully healed?

At this point it looks like that would have been the correct move. Held him out until he was ready, then used him at CF and DH while having Taylor get at least half the starts in CF. Maybe starting him later in the season would be preferable at this point no matter how he looks at the start of the season. Let's have his best from July-October.

tarheeltwinsfan · August 24, 2023

1 hour ago, chpettit19 said:

I can run 1 mile, but I can't run 2. Should I just not run at all or run my 1 mile?

I guess with that logic, we should also hope Byron doesn't go 5 for 5 with a triple and 2 doubles and 2 singles and 3 stolen bases.

Schmoeman5 · August 24, 2023

22 hours ago, chpettit19 said:

What are guys on the IL supposed to be doing if not ramping up to play?

Playing pinochle and hearts or ♠️

KirbyDome89 · August 24, 2023

17 hours ago, chpettit19 said:

No, it doesn't seem odd to me. They're not trying to maximize him for 162 games now. They're trying to maximize him for 30.

Their stated plan coming into the season was to start him at DH and build him up into playing the field depending on how his body reacted in order to maximize his games played and ABs, correct? Body apparently didn't react how they were hoping with the fulltime DH thing so the team, drs, Buxton, everybody apparently didn't think putting him in CF in April or May made sense because it'd more than likely take him out of the lineup for a massive chunk of the season. There's not a massive chunk of the season left to worry about. There's a month + playoffs (hopefully). The math has changed.

I don't think we'll find many people who'd want to argue that the plan worked. Whether the plan was right or not is a different debate, and I'm sure we'd find many people on each side of that debate. But the plan didn't work out. But there's a very clear difference, to me at least, between trying to get him through 1-2 months and trying to get him through 6-7 months.

He was physically unable to spend even any amount of time in CF to this point. The effort the Twins put in to ensure he never set foot in the OF was comical at times. He adds the wear and tear of 85 games played, people are constantly pointing to the grimacing, labored movement, ect as evidence he's struggling, he finally hits the IL, but now he's no longer dealing with the physical limitations that wouldn't allow him to play defense earlier in the year? Yeah, I think that's odd. I also think there's a very clear difference between incapable and unwilling.

chpettit19 · August 24, 2023

1 minute ago, tarheeltwinsfan said:

I guess with that logic, we should also hope Byron doesn't go 5 for 5 with a triple and 2 doubles and 2 singles and 3 stolen bases.

I'd bet if he did he'd get the next day off. Byron has had 5 hits in a game 1 time in his MLB career, and 4 hits in a game 2 other times. There's a bit of a difference between him possibly having that game and knowing he's going to play 8 innings of defense (plus have to do all the running for that amazing offensive game), no?

I mean the very simple equation to "why can he DH but not play CF" is Hitting<Hitting+Defense.

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