BALT v VIKES 11/9/25

[Aggies7]

Just now, TheLeviathan said:

No, he wasn't yelling....but teh body language was bad.  The post-play reactions were pretty irritated from what I saw.

I didn't see "give up"...but it sure looked like less than 100%.

I mean, he’d better get over it because there isn’t any help coming. Probably not even next season.

[RpR]

IF that were Went today, the cry here for put McCarthy would be overwhelming, well, McCarthy is in same poo, differnt pile.

[gunnarthor]

So, the Vikings had 13 penalties, 3 turnovers, and turnover on downs another three times. Meanwhile, Baltimore fumbled three times but kept it all three times. Honestly, keeping it as close as we did is kind of impressive. 

[Aggies7]

1 minute ago, RpR said:

IF that were Went today, the cry here for put McCarthy would be overwhelming, well, McCarthy is in same poo, differnt pile.

To be fair, wentz has had years to prove he’s above average

[gunnarthor]

Just now, RpR said:

IF that were Went today, the cry here for put McCarthy would be overwhelming, well, McCarthy is in same poo, differnt pile.

Honestly, Wentz and McCarthy are very different. Wentz had happy feet and bailed early. McCarthy has to work on reads and touch but that will come with reps. Wentz' issues are much harder to fix.

[The Great Hambino]

19 minutes ago, TheLeviathan said:

No, he wasn't yelling....but teh body language was bad.  The post-play reactions were pretty irritated from what I saw.

I didn't see "give up"...but it sure looked like less than 100%.

To me he looked exhausted, especially toward the end.  Even subbed himself out on the final drive.  Just looked off all day to me, I wouldn't be surprised if it came out later that he was battling an illness or something.

4 catches on 12 targets.  Some of those were definitely on McCarthy (2 point conversion, for example) but definitely not all of them.  Some of those a receiver of his caliber just needs to make.  The post at the goal line needs to be caught.  You can't just fall down one on one going deep (on no planet was that PI, he just fell).

JJ operated the 2 min drill like it was under college timing rules.  The first run was a fine play.  The other one and throws underneath over the middle were not.

[Mike Sixel]

38 minutes ago, gunnarthor said:

Honestly, Wentz and McCarthy are very different. Wentz had happy feet and bailed early. McCarthy has to work on reads and touch but that will come with reps. Wentz' issues are much harder to fix.

Like Turner?

[gunnarthor]

33 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

Like Turner?

I assume this is some kind of passive aggressive shot at drafting or something? Turner played well again today.

[Vanimal46]

48 called pass plays, 13 called run plays. There’s no game script with that end result that’s good for a young QB. JJM’s average depth of target per play was 12 yards. 

Has KOC ever seen a game plan to ease in young QBs? Short quick hits. Run the ball! 

[Danchat]

It's hard to choose who is at most fault for this loss, you have KOC with him abandoning the run ASAP despite running at nearly 6 yards a carry and continuing to make baffling calls on 3rd downs, JJM missing a bunch of throws after starting the game well, Jefferson have an even worse game creating an interception and dropping a TD, and then the OL giving up a ton of pressure to one of the worst pass rushes in the game and false starting so many times. Oh, and Myles Price fumbling on back-to-back returns. 

I still don't get how we beat the Lions last week. At least the defense played well enough to win, they forced a bunch of 3 and outs before getting gassed later in the game, hard to say how much fault they had when the offense can't sustain drives.

[Mike Sixel]

23 minutes ago, gunnarthor said:

I assume this is some kind of passive aggressive shot at drafting or something? Turner played well again today.

Nothing passive about it. Kam sucks at drafting. Again? 

[gunnarthor]

1 minute ago, Mike Sixel said:

Nothing passive about it. Kam sucks at drafting. Again? 

No, it was passive.  I explained why the Wentz/McCarthy comment didn't fit. You came out of left field with the silly Turner comment. Totally passive aggressive. 

[gunnarthor]

16 minutes ago, Vanimal46 said:

48 called pass plays, 13 called run plays. There’s no game script with that end result that’s good for a young QB. JJM’s average depth of target per play was 12 yards. 

Has KOC ever seen a game plan to ease in young QBs? Short quick hits. Run the ball! 

Does seem problematic. 

[Mike Sixel]

53 minutes ago, gunnarthor said:

No, it was passive.  I explained why the Wentz/McCarthy comment didn't fit. You came out of left field with the silly Turner comment. Totally passive aggressive. 

Not out of left field. I was told Turner would get better with more reps. As you said McCarthy would. 

[Mike Sixel]

1 hour ago, Vanimal46 said:

48 called pass plays, 13 called run plays. There’s no game script with that end result that’s good for a young QB. JJM’s average depth of target per play was 12 yards. 

Has KOC ever seen a game plan to ease in young QBs? Short quick hits. Run the ball! 

Definitely real problems here. 

[TheLeviathan]

3 hours ago, The Great Hambino said:

To me he looked exhausted, especially toward the end.  Even subbed himself out on the final drive.  Just looked off all day to me, I wouldn't be surprised if it came out later that he was battling an illness or something.

4 catches on 12 targets.  Some of those were definitely on McCarthy (2 point conversion, for example) but definitely not all of them.  Some of those a receiver of his caliber just needs to make.  The post at the goal line needs to be caught.  You can't just fall down one on one going deep (on no planet was that PI, he just fell).

JJ operated the 2 min drill like it was under college timing rules.  The first run was a fine play.  The other one and throws underneath over the middle were not.

I hope we end up hearing he was sick.  

My issues with McCarthy fall into two camps: he doesn't seem at all content with making the routine play and he's got all gas no brakes on his arm.

One pick came when he lollipopped a throw deep (the only time the setting on his arm appears to adjust from "RAWR ROCKET LAUNCHER") when he had a clear path to a ten yard run and a first down.  He rarely checked down on 2nd down and created easier third downs.  What's wrong with a ten play drive?  (Here is where I think we may point the finger at the actual villain - KOC)

But the second thing....good lord, how does a guy 6'3 get so many balls deflected at the LOS?  Why are 15 yard throws attempted like he's trying to throw through a wall to get it there?  The talk about him lacking touch and layers on his throws appears to be more than just a problem, it's a major issue.  I'm not convinced if we call slant plays that he won't try to behead receivers with throws.

This team was winning at the half.  They were winnig pretty much the entire first half.  The team should've been making good, solid plays and trying to extend their lead and instead it felt like we were trying to win a game we were down by 4 with 30 seconds left for 3/4 of a game.

[Parfigliano]

4 hours ago, gunnarthor said:

Honestly, Wentz and McCarthy are very different. Wentz had happy feet and bailed early. McCarthy has to work on reads and touch but that will come with reps. Wentz' issues are much harder to fix.

He has to get much better because he looked like sh;+ today.

[Parfigliano]

3 hours ago, gunnarthor said:

I assume this is some kind of passive aggressive shot at drafting or something? Turner played well again today.

I'll just say it.  Kwesi can't draft. Should have been gone before last year.

[Mike Sixel]

Tyler Slough outplaying McCarthy.....

[Aggies7]

Aaron Jones seems to suggest that the ravens were simulating the snap cadence

https://www.si.com/nfl/vikings/onsi/news/what-led-vikings-whopping-eight-false-starts-sundays-loss

[gunnarthor]

1 hour ago, Aggies7 said:

Aaron Jones seems to suggest that the ravens were simulating the snap cadence

https://www.si.com/nfl/vikings/onsi/news/what-led-vikings-whopping-eight-false-starts-sundays-loss

That would make sense because something strange was happening. But then the coaches should be riding the refs. 

[nicksaviking]

9 hours ago, gunnarthor said:

That would make sense because something strange was happening. But then the coaches should be riding the refs. 

Yeah, after about the fifth time that had to cross everyone's mind, so how was it not addressed?

[gunnarthor]

I think KOC is our best coach since at least Denny and I really do think he will win a Superbowl for us. Completely all in on him. But I will say that this year, the Vikings offense seems to be very undisciplined. Lots of pre-snap penalties. Some of it might be JJ's cadence - it's loud and quick and might take a bit of getting used to - and part of it might be the injuries along the line. But I don't like it. 

[nicksaviking]

1 hour ago, gunnarthor said:

I think KOC is our best coach since at least Denny and I really do think he will win a Superbowl for us. Completely all in on him. But I will say that this year, the Vikings offense seems to be very undisciplined. Lots of pre-snap penalties. Some of it might be JJ's cadence - it's loud and quick and might take a bit of getting used to - and part of it might be the injuries along the line. But I don't like it. 

The number of botched plays and the insane number of false starts does make me think it has something to do with the wet-behind-the-ears QB. And I've long asked for one, so I'll suffer the trials now.

As for KOC and the play calling; I don't hate it as much as most, I do want them to chuck it all over the field more than the average fan. But again, completing those passes is another story with a rookie QB. 

It does seem to me that most of the qualms with KOCs play calling pretty much always come down to instances where they didn't run the ball up the middle. Not just run the ball, but specifically up the middle. While it's clear KOC would prefer not to run those plays, I also suspect that they can't run those plays, at least not in the situations where everyone thinks they should run up the middle.

And we're on center number four in the last two years. It's possible they're just all bad at run blocking, but I don't care, my top request in next year's off season, is to fire the current OL coach and hire someone who has orchestrated good run and pass blocking schemes in the past.

[Cap'n Piranha]

2 hours ago, nicksaviking said:

The number of botched plays and the insane number of false starts does make me think it has something to do with the wet-behind-the-ears QB. And I've long asked for one, so I'll suffer the trials now.

As for KOC and the play calling; I don't hate it as much as most, I do want them to chuck it all over the field more than the average fan. But again, completing those passes is another story with a rookie QB. 

It does seem to me that most of the qualms with KOCs play calling pretty much always come down to instances where they didn't run the ball up the middle. Not just run the ball, but specifically up the middle. While it's clear KOC would prefer not to run those plays, I also suspect that they can't run those plays, at least not in the situations where everyone thinks they should run up the middle.

And we're on center number four in the last two years. It's possible they're just all bad at run blocking, but I don't care, my top request in next year's off season, is to fire the current OL coach and hire someone who has orchestrated good run and pass blocking schemes in the past.

I don't quite buy that--think back to the Josh Dobbs game in 2023.  Dobbs had only been with the team for what, 5 days, and got thrust into playing?  The Vikings had one penalty for 4 yards that day; the next week it was 5-35.  If JJM, after 18 months in KOC's system, still doesn't have a grasp on it, that's an issue.  And yes, I understand he's only played 4 live games.  But after 18 months, the only person who should know the plays and calls better than JJM is KOC, and that's because KOC is the author.

I also think there is too much weight being given to this "JJM is so inexperienced" narrative.  He played a year at IMG in HS, which is basically a semi-pro team at this point.  He played regularly his true frosh year at Michigan, then started all but one of the 29 games UM played in his soph and junior year, years in which Michigan was winning Big Integer and National titles.  He doesn't have a ton of NFL experience sure, but that's how it works now--there's no more sitting behind vets for 2-3 years (unless it's the Packers)--you have to be ready to play right away.

For example, compare JJM to Jaxson Dart, who is younger, and did not get to absorb the playbook for a year, and plays for a much worse team, and is still decidedly outperforming JJM--better completion %, yards/attempt, TDs, INTs, QB rating, and fewer sacks.  You're telling me that the now fired Brian Daboll is apparently better at creating an offense friendly to a young QB than supposed Master QB whisperer KOC?

I think the big issue, that just isn't being addressed here, is that JJM and KOC just don't seem to be a good fit stylistically.  JJM is at his best when a dominant defense puts him in plus field position, and an elite run game keeps him well in front of the sticks, while giving him simplified looks and plenty of man coverage.  That's not what this Vikings team is built to do, and based on where KOC has coached, and how he calls his games, I don't think that's what he wants to do either.  It's possible JJM can still be a competent NFL QB (don't think he'll be any better than that--he's basically a match for the first 4 years of Bryce Young), but not unless he gets away from KOC, or KOC puts his ego aside, and lets Wes Phillips put together a plan that works for JJM.

[Vanimal46]

1 hour ago, Cap'n Piranha said:

I also think there is too much weight being given to this "JJM is so inexperienced" narrative.  He played a year at IMG in HS, which is basically a semi-pro team at this point.  He played regularly his true frosh year at Michigan, then started all but one of the 29 games UM played in his soph and junior year, years in which Michigan was winning Big Integer and National titles.  He doesn't have a ton of NFL experience sure, but that's how it works now--there's no more sitting behind vets for 2-3 years (unless it's the Packers)--you have to be ready to play right away.

Fully agree. He’s had upper echelon coaching since he was 16 or 17 years old. And we’re still talking about basic fundamentals/mechanics with his passes? It’s not like he’s been working with the local HS QB 20 years ago turned social studies teacher. 

Through 4 games you would think he’s flashed a little bit more than he has. 75% of the time he’s been flat out bad out there. It’s entirely possible to have a QB look good right from the get go… But we’re so accustomed to thinking any young talent on a Minnesota sports team has to start out terribly. 

[RpR]

For the veteran Vikings followers, minus the won-loss record, this season reminds me of the 1971 season.

[Aggies7]

3 hours ago, Vanimal46 said:

Fully agree. He’s had upper echelon coaching since he was 16 or 17 years old. And we’re still talking about basic fundamentals/mechanics with his passes? It’s not like he’s been working with the local HS QB 20 years ago turned social studies teacher. 

Through 4 games you would think he’s flashed a little bit more than he has. 75% of the time he’s been flat out bad out there. It’s entirely possible to have a QB look good right from the get go… But we’re so accustomed to thinking any young talent on a Minnesota sports team has to start out terribly. 

Everyone learns at a difference pace though. Yes some of the great ones get it right away but some don’t. Only 4 games played at NFL speed is nothing. Look at Caleb Williams, he was a bottom 3 or 4 QB last year. Now he’s middle of the pack and getting better.

I know some fans were dying to go the route of drafting and developing a QB instead of continuing to sign FA’s. Well I guess this is what it is. It’s amazing if you get a Drake Maye (****ing lucky patriots) but you could also get a cam ward or someone who’s talented but can’t stay on the field like Daniels.

It’s largely a crapshoot with some luck thrown in. And not everyone is a winner. You do have to have patience with some guys. Unfortunately the Vikings can’t crack the top 3 worst teams in the league to draft a higher talent. They’d have to pull off a twins like fire sale and decimate their roster for several years.

[Mike Sixel]

3 minutes ago, Aggies7 said:

Everyone learns at a difference pace though. Yes some of the great ones get it right away but some don’t. Only 4 games played at NFL speed is nothing. Look at Caleb Williams, he was a bottom 3 or 4 QB last year. Now he’s middle of the pack and getting better.

I know some fans were dying to go the route of drafting and developing a QB instead of continuing to sign FA’s. Well I guess this is what it is. It’s amazing if you get a Drake Maye (****ing lucky patriots) but you could also get a cam ward or someone who’s talented but can’t stay on the field like Daniels.

It’s largely a crapshoot with some luck thrown in. And not everyone is a winner. You do have to have patience with some guys. Unfortunately the Vikings can’t crack the top 3 worst teams in the league to draft a higher talent. They’d have to pull off a twins like fire sale and decimate their team for years.

And the rest of the team is all veterans, so the match is terrible. 

[Aggies7]

14 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

And the rest of the team is all veterans, so the match is terrible. 

You’re not wrong in a way, but if JJM is going to struggle with the weapons and coaching we have, maybe it will be apparent sooner that he’s not the guy than if he were on a terrible team. What stinks is that our coach keeps putting a ton on his shoulders and not helping him by getting away from the run game.