Be Like MKE: What Can Minnesota Twins Learn from the Mighty Brewers?

[KirbyDome89]

39 minutes ago, TheLeviathan said:

Sure, you're always looking to improve......but having Joey Ortiz on your team stops you from having to sign Nishioka because your farm has no other SS.  Or Kyle Farmer.  Or whomever.

Corbin Burnes wouldn't be on this team.  And even if he was he'd be eating 20% of the salary to be on the injured list.  Instead, Ortiz (who they probably had higher hopes for) at least gave you a floor that wasn't "Sign some dude in FA for 4M and hope to god he's not terrible".  We, as Twins fans, should understand the value of that.

It's also not fair to the argument to focus on Joey Ortiz and then conclude they win despite their moves.  They turned a closer they weren't going to retain into one of the league's best everyday catchers.  That's the kind of net win that is so tremendous you'd have to whiff multiple times to zero out the gain.  Durbin being a positive player is a win for them too.  Their ace is the product of trading renowned baseball star Adam Lind.  So let's maybe take stock of all the moves and not just the ones that help our argument.

No one is asking for the Twins to raze the team to the ground every year....but there are times to realize pivoting and bolstering your future is worth the try.  You never know when that move will align with a Brice Turang, Jackson Churio, Sal Frelick, Quinn Priester call-up festival that unlocks something special.  It's worth a shot if all you can do otherwise is meander your way to .500 and watch them walk for nothing.

I'll point this out too - Milwaukee isn't just about selling off.  They went out and got Contreras.  They went out and got Yelich.  The Twins need to be willing to sell when it's time to sell, but also buy when it's time to buy.

Yes, but having Joey Ortiz and either settling for what he is or convincing yourself of the promise he could fulfill, whichever way you want to spin it, can also prevent you from attempting to upgrade. There's an opportunity cost associated with locking yourself into a decent glove/poor bat SS too. 

I'm using the names that were thrown out there, but on the ledger, you're going to see a lot more zero or minimal gain returns. Sometimes even I walk out of the casino up. Yeah, snagging Contreras was a great move, but it's the opposite of what's being pushed; sell established talent. If the Twins can find a team dumb enough to trade them a young AS C for a prospect, my god, do it. 

Sure, you can hope everything coalesces at the perfect time and maybe you squeeze out a magical season(s) but that's more about peddling hope than building and/or sustaining anything. 

Concur, I think the Twins' refusal to "buy," cost them time with what was an admittedly flawed window of contention. 

The tl;dr here is that I don't believe Milwaukee (or insert whichever wannabe poverty franchise) is good because they constantly shuffle the deck. The turnover is more of a bug than a feature. Elite talent (particularly pitching) is hard to find. You don't get better sending it out. 

[TheLeviathan]

20 minutes ago, KirbyDome89 said:

elieve Milwaukee (or insert whichever wannabe poverty franchise) is good because they constantly shuffle the deck. The turnover is more of a bug than a feature. Elite talent (particularly pitching) is hard to find. You don't get better sending it out. 

I guess my point is that given the realities of baseball and ownership, shuffling is going to happen regardless.  It's about when and how you approach that shuffle.

The feature part for the Brewers vs. the Twins is twofold: 1) they're willing to sell before the clock strikes midnight on a talent's value.  They have a sober realization of their ability to contend and aren't afraid to take chances rather than let value wither on the vine and die.  2) They then use those moves to supplement them through both regular development and trades that buy major league talent.

They will obviously have misfires, any strategy will.  But the moves they've made have been a net gain (significantly IMO) because they're willing to take the approach above.  As opposed to the Twins who let Polanco wither.  They let Kepler wither.  (And as a result, never gave Rooker the requisite ABs)  I could go on but I think you get the point I hope.  There is a level of, call it what you will: aggression, risk, non-complacency, that their team has and ours lacks. 

[KirbyDome89]

2 hours ago, TheLeviathan said:

I guess my point is that given the realities of baseball and ownership, shuffling is going to happen regardless.  It's about when and how you approach that shuffle.

The feature part for the Brewers vs. the Twins is twofold: 1) they're willing to sell before the clock strikes midnight on a talent's value.  They have a sober realization of their ability to contend and aren't afraid to take chances rather than let value wither on the vine and die.  2) They then use those moves to supplement them through both regular development and trades that buy major league talent.

They will obviously have misfires, any strategy will.  But the moves they've made have been a net gain (significantly IMO) because they're willing to take the approach above.  As opposed to the Twins who let Polanco wither.  They let Kepler wither.  (And as a result, never gave Rooker the requisite ABs)  I could go on but I think you get the point I hope.  There is a level of, call it what you will: aggression, risk, non-complacency, that their team has and ours lacks. 

Agreed, I'm pushing back against the notion that the shuffling is what makes a team like Milwaukee successful. 

Not that I'm defending the Twins FO here, but there hasn't exactly been a ton of talent to ship out early. You don't miss the postseason 4x in 5 seasons because you're uber talented. An ability to identify, but more importantly develop talent is what keeps you competitive. You can't constatly shuffle the deck and struggle to develop positional talent like the Twins have. You're Pittsburgh at that point. 

As far as net gain/loss, Idk, that probably depends on how you want to slice it, and I definitely don't care enough to parse that one out. The Kepler and Polanco thing, eh, yes and no. I think there's a lot of hindsight there. Julien has totally flamed out, and Lee hasn't hit, so it's not like there was much pushing Polanco off 2B. I guess Wallner and/or Larnach could've taken over a year earlier, but they haven't exactly lit it up either. Again, not defending the lack of development in this org, but I can kinda understand why they'd hang onto Polanco and/or Kepler if they saw themselves in a competitive window. 

Concur, it's not debatable, Milwaukee is far more aggressive. As an outsider, I can appreciate that I guess. If I was more invested in the team, Idk how much I'd love it.  

[glunn]

On 8/14/2025 at 9:03 AM, Doctor Gast said:

https://www.mlb.com/news/sean-murphy-braves-trade

 

But where MIL is far superior to MN is in player evaluations. They spot each player's strong points & capitalize on them. They develop each player to the best of their abilities & stress to them this is what you do well, so do it & not put more on them than what they are capable of doing & prosper, MN tried to make everyone into sluggers. Constantly putting players in positions where they didn't have the physical ability for a path to excel. Twins have favorites for one reason or another, who have every opportunity to succeed where they don't belong, while other, more promising players don't have a legimate chance to contribute there. Therefore, instead of producing valuable players on the field or by trade, they have many disgruntle players floundering in MiLB.

I believe that player evaluation and development are very important. I suspect that hiring one of the top player evaluators from the Brewers could save the Twins millions of dollars over the long run and produce better rosters.

I also think that player development is very important, and my sense is that the Twins could do a better job in the minors helping players improve their defense and even their running speed. I love good fundamentals and often feel like vomiting when a Twins player knows less about bunting than some little league players.

 

[Riverbrian]

On 8/14/2025 at 6:46 PM, TheLeviathan said:

Sure, you're always looking to improve......but having Joey Ortiz on your team stops you from having to sign Nishioka because your farm has no other SS.  Or Kyle Farmer.  Or whomever.

Corbin Burnes wouldn't be on this team.  And even if he was he'd be eating 20% of the salary to be on the injured list.  Instead, Ortiz (who they probably had higher hopes for) at least gave you a floor that wasn't "Sign some dude in FA for 4M and hope to god he's not terrible".  We, as Twins fans, should understand the value of that.

It's also not fair to the argument to focus on Joey Ortiz and then conclude they win despite their moves.  They turned a closer they weren't going to retain into one of the league's best everyday catchers.  That's the kind of net win that is so tremendous you'd have to whiff multiple times to zero out the gain.  Durbin being a positive player is a win for them too.  Their ace is the product of trading renowned baseball star Adam Lind.  So let's maybe take stock of all the moves and not just the ones that help our argument.

No one is asking for the Twins to raze the team to the ground every year....but there are times to realize pivoting and bolstering your future is worth the try.  You never know when that move will align with a Brice Turang, Jackson Churio, Sal Frelick, Quinn Priester call-up festival that unlocks something special.  It's worth a shot if all you can do otherwise is meander your way to .500 and watch them walk for nothing.

I'll point this out too - Milwaukee isn't just about selling off.  They went out and got Contreras.  They went out and got Yelich.  They signed Hoskins.  The Twins need to be willing to sell when it's time to sell, but also buy when it's time to buy. (And you are right of course that ultimately developing internal stars is priority one)

This is the best post of this thread. Discussion of weather Ortiz worked out just pulls the big picture into the weeds. It’s why I don’t want to discuss individual players because it just leads to missing the point. He makes the minimum and the Brewers are winning with him. 
 

The Twins ran out of money. We had 7 roster spots to fill with very little money. They tried to cheap one year vet their way to a playoff spot and this approach was going to crash and it did.
The Brewers… instead of playing Ty France everyday like he couldn’t be replaced went with youth instead. Some acquired in trades, some homegrown but youth. Their efforts produced ranges on individuals from poor to pretty good just like our cheap one year vets produced ranges from poor to pretty good. 

The end result. The Brewers could sign Kyle Tucker (they won’t) in the off season and still be below our payroll this year. The Twins had to tear it down just to get where the Brewers were 5 years ago. 
 

Develop or Die. We don’t have the budget to be the Phillies and we were acting like the Phillies. What we did have all along was the ability to be the Brewers WITH MORE Money! We chose cheap vets over youth. We strip mined youth for parts. Why is the big question. Lack of trust in youth in general or lack in trust in what your farm was producing. Either option isn’t good and it cost us. 

[TheLeviathan]

9 hours ago, KirbyDome89 said:

Agreed, I'm pushing back against the notion that the shuffling is what makes a team like Milwaukee successful. 

What makes it is how they shuffle IMO.  Their approach is more aggressive on both selling and buying.  They are willing to take chances.

That's what I want to see change.

[Mike Sixel]

10 hours ago, KirbyDome89 said:

Agreed, I'm pushing back against the notion that the shuffling is what makes a team like Milwaukee successful. 

Not that I'm defending the Twins FO here, but there hasn't exactly been a ton of talent to ship out early. You don't miss the postseason 4x in 5 seasons because you're uber talented. An ability to identify, but more importantly develop talent is what keeps you competitive. You can't constatly shuffle the deck and struggle to develop positional talent like the Twins have. You're Pittsburgh at that point. 

As far as net gain/loss, Idk, that probably depends on how you want to slice it, and I definitely don't care enough to parse that one out. The Kepler and Polanco thing, eh, yes and no. I think there's a lot of hindsight there. Julien has totally flamed out, and Lee hasn't hit, so it's not like there was much pushing Polanco off 2B. I guess Wallner and/or Larnach could've taken over a year earlier, but they haven't exactly lit it up either. Again, not defending the lack of development in this org, but I can kinda understand why they'd hang onto Polanco and/or Kepler if they saw themselves in a competitive window. 

Concur, it's not debatable, Milwaukee is far more aggressive. As an outsider, I can appreciate that I guess. If I was more invested in the team, Idk how much I'd love it.  

People here begged them to deal Kepler. Other people said extend him. I don't think it's hindsight for many.....

[KirbyDome89]

4 hours ago, TheLeviathan said:

What makes it is how they shuffle IMO.  Their approach is more aggressive on both selling and buying.  They are willing to take chances.

That's what I want to see change.

If you promised me a new FO you could sell me on that pitch.

[KirbyDome89]

3 hours ago, Mike Sixel said:

People here begged them to deal Kepler. Other people said extend him. I don't think it's hindsight for many.....

Never said there weren't calls for either route. 

The Twins were trying to win games, and since each has departed neither position has been locked up. I don't see holding onto either of them as particularly egregious, YMMV. 

[KirbyDome89]

7 hours ago, Riverbrian said:

This is the best post of this thread. Discussion of weather Ortiz worked out just pulls the big picture into the weeds. It’s why I don’t want to discuss individual players because it just leads to missing the point. He makes the minimum and the Brewers are winning with him. 
 

The Twins ran out of money. We had 7 roster spots to fill with very little money. They tried to cheap one year vet their way to a playoff spot and this approach was going to crash and it did.
The Brewers… instead of playing Ty France everyday like he couldn’t be replaced went with youth instead. Some acquired in trades, some homegrown but youth. Their efforts produced ranges on individuals from poor to pretty good just like our cheap one year vets produced ranges from poor to pretty good. 

The end result. The Brewers could sign Kyle Tucker (they won’t) in the off season and still be below our payroll this year. The Twins had to tear it down just to get where the Brewers were 5 years ago. 
 

Develop or Die. We don’t have the budget to be the Phillies and we were acting like the Phillies. What we did have all along was the ability to be the Brewers WITH MORE Money! We chose cheap vets over youth. We strip mined youth for parts. Why is the big question. Lack of trust in youth in general or lack in trust in what your farm was producing. Either option isn’t good and it cost us. 

Ty France for $1M or Joey Ortiz for league minimum is irrelevant. In either case you're investing starter level playing time for production that's a tick above replacement level. If the preference is to be young and bad instead of "old," and bad, ok, but that's just picking your poison. 

Did the Twins run out of money or did ownership backtrack? That's a pretty important distinction. Do you believe Falvey knew payroll was dropping post 2023? If so, then yeah, handing out those large contracts was a massive blunder. I'm not sure I buy that. I don't think the Twins tried to "cheap one year vet their way to a playoff spot," so much as the Pohlads pivot in conjunction with poor development crumbled what should've been a contention window. 

Give me the Correa signing. Give me the Lopez extension. Simultaneously develop or die. 

[TheLeviathan]

41 minutes ago, KirbyDome89 said:

If you promised me a new FO you could sell me on that pitch.

One of my main reasons for being pissed about ownership is the continued stagnation of the front office.  The same people that are hiring them will hire their replacement and that gives me Glen Taylor vibes.

So I'm with you there.

[Riverbrian]

15 hours ago, KirbyDome89 said:

Ty France for $1M or Joey Ortiz for league minimum is irrelevant. In either case you're investing starter level playing time for production that's a tick above replacement level. If the preference is to be young and bad instead of "old," and bad, ok, but that's just picking your poison. 

Did the Twins run out of money or did ownership backtrack? That's a pretty important distinction. Do you believe Falvey knew payroll was dropping post 2023? If so, then yeah, handing out those large contracts was a massive blunder. I'm not sure I buy that. I don't think the Twins tried to "cheap one year vet their way to a playoff spot," so much as the Pohlads pivot in conjunction with poor development crumbled what should've been a contention window. 

Give me the Correa signing. Give me the Lopez extension. Simultaneously develop or die. 

I have selected my poison. I will take a vial of Ortiz please. Did the same thing with Frelick and Turang in 2023 and 2024.
 

Turns out… it wasn’t ingesting… it was investing.

[jorgenswest]

Aren’t the Brewers one of the best defensive teams in the league? Isn’t Ortiz a key to that as one of the best defensive shortstops? I don’t think anyone who has watched him play defense the last two years would think he is anywhere near replaceable.

The Brewers are fast, young and play defense. Turns out that is an inexpensive model. They are in the bottom half of home runs and 10th in OPS. In spite of the middling team slash stats they lead the league in runs scored. Maybe we need to look beyond OPS to decide what is replacement level.

[tony&rodney]

21 minutes ago, jorgenswest said:

The Brewers are fast, young and play defense. Turns out that is an inexpensive model. They are in the bottom half of home runs and 10th in OPS. In spite of the middling team slash stats they lead the league in runs scored. Maybe we need to look beyond OPS to decide what is replacement level.

This. All the metrics and analytical models in the world are useless next to Runs Scored versus Runs Given Up. WAR, OPS, etc. are useless on so many fronts. If you score more runs than the other team, you win. The Brewers have given up 77 fewer runs, but also scored 128 more runs than the Twins. The Twins have hit 10 more home runs than the Brewers.

Here is the key part, for me. The Brewers are fun to watch. My lifelong (since 1961) team, the Minnesota Twins, are as close to unwatchable as a team can get. The Brewers play in a small market and at best cannot compete financially with the Twins much less their neighbors from Chicago. Thus they must be better at evaluation, development, and play a fast game that includes great defense. Everyone loves the long ball but waiting for the home run and rostering a pile of DH players won't cut it for wins or entertainment. I'm sure the Brewers are on the constant lookout for thumpers who can run, hit, field, and do all things well. Until then they use the best they find.

[The Great Hambino]

For what it's worth:

Here are the current NL league-wide standings:

1. MIL 2. PHI 3. LAD 4. CHC 5. SDP

Here are the current NL rankings in total bWAR:

1. MIL 2. PHI 3. CHC 4.SDP 5. LAD

If you squint hard enough, you can see some correlation

[KirbyDome89]

6 hours ago, Riverbrian said:

I have selected my poison. I will take a vial of Ortiz please. Did the same thing with Frelick and Turang in 2023 and 2024.
 

Turns out… it wasn’t ingesting… it was investing.

Well, Frelick and Turang are Lee and Larnach in Twins land. To each their own.