Was Joe Mauer's Contract Extension Worth It?

[old nurse]

10 hours ago, ewen21 said:

This is not to say the decided to milk the system.  He fell into a certain approach after the Twins invested fully in him as the face of the franchise.  In a way, Mauer invested in an extreme approach the Twins tried to sell.  The Twins had "go the other way" grained into their heads for years.  They pushed on their hitters too strong and Mauer came up in the middle of it.

 

I read an article about JJ Hardy and how when he arrived at Baltimore their hitting coach Jim "Hound Dog" Presley asked him why he kept doing that in batting practice.  Hardy answered him and Presley told him to stop doing it.

Yet now I read complaints of the pull happy Twins that can’t go the other way

[old nurse]

8 hours ago, SwainZag said:

Adjust to what?  Mauer was a professional hitter who worked counts his entire career.   It had nothing to do with adjusting and more than him wanting to see pitches, work the pitcher and wait for a pitch he wanted.  

 

The odd complaint and straight irritation of Joe taking the first pitch will always baffle me.   He swung at just above 10% of all 1st pitches.   His OPS when swinging at the 1stc pitch was .846.  It was .824 when he didn't.   

For the majority of his career he had more walks than strikeouts, it changed towards the tail end, but he was the definition off a patient contact hitter.  Almost all the people who discount Mauer point to his 09 season and say.... this is who he should have been his whole career instead of accepting that as an outlier and using the rest of his career as the standard. 

I'm always baffled by how many twins fans down play how good Joe Mauer was as a player.  I don't know if it's because he was a hometown guy and they somehow expected more, or if it's because he was always so humble and a likeable genuine human..... but man I will always come with numbers to back him up.  

 

 

 

 

Why bash Mauer you ask.

1. He made a lot of money

2. He never led a parade like Herbie and Kirby did

3, He never seemed to have any charisma when interviewed or doing commercials

4. He never led a parade

5. Injuries, hero’s are not supposed to get injured. The expert fans here roasted him over bilateral leg weakness.

6. DidI ever mention he never led a parade? AL Championchip?

[The_Phantom]

16 hours ago, ewen21 said:

This is not going to be popular here, but I need to say it.....

 

 I made the observation about his apparent lack of conditioning IMMEDIATELY when he reported to camp on the old MLB site.  I was treated very harshly for this observation (I didn't care because I can take it). 

Yeahhhhhhh that's not what happened at all. You became the resident bully and literally made a slew of people leave that site, because if they didn't also bash Mauer you personally attacked them. And any time your "Joe Mauer is a problem" thread went further than halfway down the front page, you bumped it to make sure the confrontational thread stayed at the top of the page.

[The_Phantom]

He was underwhelmingly average for most of that contract and pretty much all of those years were dark years for the Twins - losing nearly 100 games. He seems to be a nice guy, but it's hard to make an argument that the extension really helped the team

[chpettit19]

3 hours ago, ewen21 said:

These are not the reasons why I offered up my opinion.  It is not personal.  
 

I spoke at length about his approach and refusal to adjust to one of the most bizarre shifts in baseball history.  His unwillingness/inability to turn on a baseball and drive it during that contract was a problem for me because curtailed his production.  Additionally, his close & late and high leverage batting averages were 20 to 30 points lower.  In 12 playoff games he was always on the losing end and in those contests he drove in only one run.  He went from 2008 to 2017 without a walkoff hit.    Correct me if I’m wrong on any of this.

 

He also was a first baseman/DH during a very large portion of that contract.  This about Mauer AFTER the contract.  Please refer to information posted here if your baffled as to why I’d say he didn’t live up to the contract.  After all, that is what this is about.  It isn’t personal or that I’m being hard on him because of his personality or because he’s a Minnesotan.  That’s got nothing to do with it

You say "20-30 points lower" like he was hitting .150 in those situations or something. 20-30 points lower was still .280. He was a .286/.412/.410/.822 hitter in high leverage situations and this is what you want to complain about? This is your big "he was overrated" argument? He only hit .286 in 1500+ high leverage PAs? Had an OBP over .400 in 1500+ high leverage PAs? Yeah, real downer of a hitter in high leverage spots. He had an .822 OPS in high leverage situations and you're mad at it. That's quite a hill to die on.

And walk offs? How many chances at a walk off did he have from 2008 to 2017? Was he 0-100? 0-5? 0-0? Going to need some more context before that's a big "got him" argument.

[D. Hocking]

35 minutes ago, The_Phantom said:

He was underwhelmingly average for most of that contract and pretty much all of those years were dark years for the Twins - losing nearly 100 games. He seems to be a nice guy, but it's hard to make an argument that the extension really helped the team

Yes - it did not help those teams.  It did make sense at the time it was granted though and probably a good long-term investment for the Twins organization, but not short term for winning championships.

That said, I don't think it was the main reason for those dark years.  Some of those payrolls were not exactly high even with the contract.  They could have spent a bit more to try and do a quicker rebuild.   Those teams had a lot of problems that had nothing to do with Mauer.  He also still might have been one of their more consistent hitters his last few years once he was a bit further from the 2013 concussion.  I know his watching the first strike drove people crazy (and at times with reason), but there have been times the past couple of years where I thought they could use more hitters with his plate discipline.  

Unrelated, I wonder how he would have done in 2019 when everything was flying out of the ballparks.

Also unrelated, he seems to be enjoying his current career as youth league coach and chauffeur.  I don't see him coaching at any minor league team anytime soon.  

[Mortimerkenny21]

18 hours ago, ewen21 said:

If I had a dime for every moment he came up in a high leverage spot and spit on fat pitches he should have driven to Mars I would have $796.51. 

Maybe your total accumulation of dimes for fat pitches should end in a zero.

[KGB]

At the time of the extension, ownership probably felt it had no choice but to give the extension.  But was is "worth it", based on performance during the contact, it wasn't the right baseball decision.  It didn't really help ownership's either.  They still were the cheap Pohlads because they wouldn't just think of contract as sunk cost and spend more money.

Look at the Cardinals and Albert Pujois.  Pujois lead them the World Series title and they let him walk.  I don't think anyone in St Louis is questioning if that was the right decision because of the fall off in his performance during the contract.

 

[SoDakTwinsFan]

13 hours ago, SwainZag said:

Adjust to what?  Mauer was a professional hitter who worked counts his entire career.   It had nothing to do with adjusting and more than him wanting to see pitches, work the pitcher and wait for a pitch he wanted.  

 

The odd complaint and straight irritation of Joe taking the first pitch will always baffle me.   He swung at just above 10% of all 1st pitches.   His OPS when swinging at the 1stc pitch was .846.  It was .824 when he didn't.   

For the majority of his career he had more walks than strikeouts, it changed towards the tail end, but he was the definition off a patient contact hitter.  Almost all the people who discount Mauer point to his 09 season and say.... this is who he should have been his whole career instead of accepting that as an outlier and using the rest of his career as the standard. 

I'm always baffled by how many twins fans down play how good Joe Mauer was as a player.  I don't know if it's because he was a hometown guy and they somehow expected more, or if it's because he was always so humble and a likeable genuine human..... but man I will always come with numbers to back him up.  

 

 

 

 

He was a extremely talented player.  I think he is HOF bound.  What a treat it was for us to see the greatest hitting catcher of all time play for the Twins.  But isn't ok to ask why the power surge in 09 and then like a fart in the wind it just disappears?  Outside of his 28 HR year which came in his contract year he averaged 8 HR/year.  In my opinion that can not be merely a coincidence.  His contract wasn't for him to be a Wade Boggs.  It was for him to be a run producer.  Especially when he moved to first base.  That's a run producing position.

As far as the "boring" personality that doesn't bother me at all.  Some people want more firey leadership but that just was not who he was.  Morneau wasn't all that much of a fireball either and no one says much about that.  

[jmlease1]

The contract was worth it. He's one of the greatest players in Twins history, a generational talent and one of the greatest catchers of all time. He wasn't the same player after the injuries started piling up and the concussion(s) were responsible for a lot of that, but he was still a fine player and should have won at least one Gold Glove at 1B.

I think a lot of people blame him for the injuries as if it's somehow a personal failing on his part (maybe part of that is because people look the same after a concussion; it's not something that makes you limp around like Tony Oliva's destroyed knees). There's also certain members of the media who have relentlessly bashed him for years (mostly for taking too many walks and not appearing on their shows...) and that certainly impacts people's perceptions. there's also those who blame his contract for the Twins not spending money in free agency or retaining other players at bigger deals...but that was a failing on the part of the front office and ownership not Joe Mauer, especially because they had the money.

You can't know what injuries are going to do to a player or even whether they're going to have minor, serious, or none. Despite all of that, Mauer kept playing and adding value to the team. He was the veteran leader and tone setter of that 2017 club that went from being dreadful to making the Wild Card and has been a good guy and community presence his entire career. he should have won a Gold Glove at 1B, which probably would have helped re-evaluate the last few years of his career; think about how few players have won Gold Gloves at truly different positions (LF v CF doesn't count) and Mauer was worthy at C and 1B.

I love the fact that he played his whole career here. He should be going into the Hall of Fame (I don't think he'll have to wait long, the national media has long held him in more respect than some of the local guys). Maybe from pure on-field value the extension wasn't the greatest, but it wasn't a disaster and everything else that is part of Joe Mauer as a twin makes it worth it every time in my mind.

Glad his number is retired. Glad he's in the Twins Hall of Fame. Looking forward to him going to Cooperstown (3 batting titles as a catcher? that's insane.)

[ewen21]

5 hours ago, old nurse said:

Yet now I read complaints of the pull happy Twins that can’t go the other way

Not sure how this applies to anything I’m saying.  Joe was pretty extreme in his inability to launch balls into right field.  Nearly everything he pulled was on the ground.  Most right fielders shaded about 30 to 40 feet toward CF, giving him the entire right field corner.

Is this not a fair comment?

 

 

 

 

[old nurse]

2 hours ago, ewen21 said:

Not sure how this applies to anything I’m saying.  Joe was pretty extreme in his inability to launch balls into right field.  Nearly everything he pulled was on the ground.  Most right fielders shaded about 30 to 40 feet toward CF, giving him the entire right field corner.

Is this not a fair comment?

 

 

 

 

The first half of his career he was an all fields hitter. Later it became more left, left center, were he a pull hitter as a left hand bat, they go to right field

[Plh]

He was an amazing catcher, I consider it a gift to have had the privilege to watch him play all those years.   He conducted himself on and off the field with such grace.  At the time the contract was signed he was at the top of his game and the price reflected that.   He wanted to stay and the Twins wanted to keep him at all costs.   Other larger market teams were willing to pay more than he signed for.   There’s no way to know the future.  It was a steal at the time.

So unfortunate that concussions pulled him out from behind the plate.  

Exceptional catcher and a more than adequate first baseman.  Not many catchers cane play the positions and hit the way he did.  
As far as it goes off the field, I’ve dealt with him many times in a service position both before and after his playing days and he is a joy to deal with.  That tells me a lot about him as a human being.