Emilioooo!

[mnfireman]

1 hour ago, Linus said:

What this thread really reveals is that this front office sucks at building bullpens. They have their beloved “process” that produces poor results but that doesn’t matter because the “process” was good. 

No. This thread reveals that the teams FO believes that metrics tell the full story, not the results.

Spin rate, speed, fIP and other stats are to be believed above the eye test and results. Maybe sometimes the results are the players ceiling. It happens...

[Linus]

10 hours ago, mnfireman said:

No. This thread reveals that the teams FO believes that metrics tell the full story, not the results.

Spin rate, speed, fIP and other stats are to be believed above the eye test and results. Maybe sometimes the results are the players ceiling. It happens...

I didn’t say anything about the eye test. When you don’t get results it’s time to ask why. They show little inclination to do that in many facets of the game. 

[Jkeady12]

On 6/12/2023 at 12:22 PM, raindog said:

There are always going to be times when you have to use your low leverage guys in high leverage spots. He has shown time and time again he can't handle that. 

The Varland comparison is ridiculous. It's not a knee jerk reaction to say they should move on from a reliever that has been awful for four seasons straight. 

PaGone!!!

 

[Jkeady12]

On 6/12/2023 at 3:05 PM, August J Gloop said:

I don't want to cut him. I'm saying the argument for cutting Pagan is based on him providing better numbers than a struggling rookie. This whole goofball nonsense about how Varland should have been out of the inning is so silly. He went to pieces because they only got one out on a 97+ mph oppo hit by Vlad Jr? The ball to Chapman was every bit as terrible as the ball to Biggio. He did that because 'his defense let him down'? Then yeah, time to go back to AAA for a while.

I just think the Pagan thing is kinda dumb. He's not that great and gets used inappropriately sometimes, but he's not close to the actual reason the Twins are at .500 right now. And certainly, Varland was every bit as responsible as Pagan, probably moreso. If anyone should really feel bad about themselves for Sunday it's Jorge Lopez, who should have been out there in the 8th putting down any thought of scoring. But no, he's gone round the bend. 

You are wrong. Varland did his job Pagan didn't. How can you even compare or defend Pagan?? He got zero outs, Varland had a number of great innings and a screwed up double play. I never understand every time Pagan fails someone defends him and the I say just wait and see he will fail miserably again after a couple of average outings,  BOOM their he goes again. Rocco can't even use him when he should be, how is that valuable to a team that has great starting pitching and needs a bullpen to close out games. He is useless if all he is there for is mop up duty. 

[Coach Wheels]

He needs to be DFA'd because there is zero trade value for him and he cannot get people out.

Kepler is next

[Jeff K]

On 6/12/2023 at 1:40 PM, August J Gloop said:

Varland lost the game as much as Pagan did, probably more by not being able to get out of the 5th inning with a 5 run lead. 

Look, It's not the order the runs score in, it's the quantity. Pagan has pitched 90 innings and given up 45 runs in a Twins uniform. Not that inspiring. Varland has thrown 77 innings and given up 39. That's definitely worse. Pagan's Fip with Twins:  3.96. Varland: 4.92. 

Pagan has been on the mound for a few of the worst losses in recent memory, but he's not usually the sole reason for many of the losses the team has endured. 

I don't think comparing the ERA of a starter against a reliever is a good measurement of worth.  Let's not forget that Varland is the 7th starter on the team; who has mostly done a solid job filling in.  

[Richie the Rally Goat]

On 6/13/2023 at 1:43 AM, KirbyDome89 said:

Except he's bad when, ya know, it matters the most. The salary is a sunk cost, it shouldn't dictate Pagan's spot on the roster. He offers nothing as far as future value. Run a revolving door of AAA/AAAA guys in low leverage situations and who knows, maybe somebody sticks.

Exactly! How do you know you don’t have an internal option until you try?

[nicksaviking]

17 minutes ago, Richie the Rally Goat said:

Exactly! How do you know you don’t have an internal option until you try?

Yeah, I really dislike the implied 'safety net' aspect of poorly playing vets. "But what if the unproven guy we replace him with is even worse?!?!?"

Nothing, that's what. A loss by three runs counts the same as a loss by five runs.

[Richie the Rally Goat]

1 hour ago, nicksaviking said:

Yeah, I really dislike the implied 'safety net' aspect of poorly playing vets. "But what if the unproven guy we replace him with is even worse?!?!?"

Nothing, that's what. A loss by three runs counts the same as a loss by five runs.

That and the unproven guy had better have options and if he proves to not be better, be replaced by another guy